Joni Eareckson Tada on Wilberforce Award, 'Better Off Dead Than Disabled' Mentality

You are a very wise woman, metmom!

I Peter 1:6-9
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

John 5:1-9 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. 3 In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. 5 One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9 And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.

It does not record that Jesus healed anyone else who was laying at that pool, but instead approached the man who had no clue who He was.

Likewise the lame beggar whom Peter healed in Acts, had been laid near the entrance of the Temple, as was his custom. There's no reason to not think that Jesus didn't walk right by him many times previously.

Lazarus died before Jesus came on the scene. Matter of fact, He DELIBERATELY delayed coming to Lazarus.

Sure when Jesus healed it was immediate and complete. None of this *delayed* healing stuff. No teaching that you can lose it, that the symptoms are just likes of Satan to deceive you and you should just ignore them and *walk it out* "in faith". When people were healed by Jesus, they KNEW it.

Nor do I see any verse that indicates we are guaranteed healing upon demand or request. That theology is all based on rationalization and extrapolation and cherry picking verses.

The other problem is the paradoxes of the Christian life. IN CHRIST my salvation is complete, I have everything I need in the heavenlies. Here on earth is another matter. My salvation is not complete only in the sense that I have not yet died. I still have a physical body which will die. I have a sin nature which has been crucified in Christ but is still alive and kicking in reality that I still struggle with.

We are told to present our bodies as a "living sacrifice" to God. The only problem with a living sacrifice, though, is that it keeps trying to crawl off the altar. ;o)

And I DO have that joy.

Thanks for those verses.

May we all walk ever closer to our Risen, Savior Lord.

I repent for any and all personal pique, anger, retaliation, vengeance, unfitting carnal judgment, and/or offence and anything else less than God’s highest toward you and your cohorts.

I forgive all y’all all such. In Jesus’ Name, for Jesus and His Kingdom’s sake.

I’ve decided that anything that gets my attention off God isn’t of Him and does not, and should not, deserve my time and attention.

A big, hearty, AMEN to that! The things (including bodies) of this world are passing away, so we are to store up our treasures in heaven. And anything that causes us to focus anywhere but heaven and the One who is enthroned there, is of this world and will pass away. Our peace, the peace that can't be understood, the joy that can't be expressed only comes when we are focused and are resting in Christ Jesus. All else is dung as Paul says.

God is sovereign over all our circumstances. Our choice is to either cry out for help to God to save our souls in whatever circumstance and to have complete joy in them because we have joy in Him, or to be miserable because we don't like what is happening. Simply translated, we are mad at God because he didn't do what we wanted - which is to have him be at our beck and call.

I had strange week. I found out that a small house I inherited that my aunt and uncle had since the 60's was set on fire. It is likely the house will have to just about be gutted and fully renovated. I had a long talk with the tenant who fiance had dumped him that same day. We talked about Job. He didn't understand how I could not be upset my house was deliberatly torched and that he was basically mad at this God of mine. I tried to explain to him that it was just "stuff" and whoever set it had their heart priorities in the wrong place. I found out later, that he is the most likely suspet.

Then just two days later, I was with people at the opposite end. I am highly involved in a new ministry at our church which is a bible study for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. A room full of 30+ adults with Down's syndrome, autism, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc, who are FULL of the joy of God and live with their handicaps with joy. A young man with down's syndrome got up at the end and played a guitar and sang a song he wrote about God saving him. The chords were all the same, he sang off tune and nobody could understand what he was saying. Yet, some were singing with him and at the end, they just exploded in applause and praise for God. I am of the understanding that our bible study may be discussed on Joni's show in the future. It would be such a blessings if more churches did this!

My lesson for the week - sin is ugly, ugly, stinky smelly and the guts of the house (our heart) have to be torn out and redone although the outside looks fine. A few small fires ruined the whole house. As does sin. On the other hand, a house that looks broken is no reflection of the beauty that God puts within and a joy that can't be ignored. I myself have body issues and lately, a lot of circumtance issues that, but I will take broken down bodies and minds and circumstances all day if they lead me to a better knowledge of our Lord Christ Jesus in our life. In the end, we CAN truly say that we rejoice in our sufferings, for they produce endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope and we know that hope will not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit! (Rom 5)

Exactly....and they are coming out the walls today....all to prepare the mind to accept the anti-Christ’s miracles etc. when he comes...and they will....conditioning of the mind works on the uninformed and willingly ignorant.

AMEN! You are SO right! :)

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Here, in the Greek......

http://biblos.com/romans/12-2.htm

Stong's http://concordances.org/greek/3339.htm

be transformed = metamorphousthe

3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445 /morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

http://concordances.org/greek/342.htm renewing = anakainosei = "From anakainoo; renovation -- renewing."

And your account of your house fire is so appropriate for that. The idea that our minds have to be renovated. And when you renovate a house, you gut it completely and leave only the basic structure and replace everything in it with something new. You rip out the old and throw it out.

I'm thinking that if that guy you were talking to is responsible for the fire, your attitude has got to be bringing tremendous conviction on him right now. There's nothing like forgiveness for breaking down any barriers. People can expect and handle anger and retaliation,but forgiveness. There's no defense for that.

Forgiveness unconditionally granted.

And please forgive me for the things which I have said which have made it personal. There were times I reacted in the flesh.

No sweat. I fully and unconditionally forgive you and all your cohorts.

None of us are rid of the flesh, yet.

Sigh.

Psalm 139:13-18 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! 18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake, and I am still with you.

Even if some illness or conditions can be blamed on sin, not all can. Some are just a result of the corruption that afflicts our bodies living in a fallen, corrupt world.

But God has made us, His hand formed us. When a baby if born with a condition, God made him that way, for a reason. Like the man born blind when the disciples in typical human wisdom asked who sinned that he was born blind, what was Jesus' answer? Neither. It was for the glory of God to be revealed.

Now, if it's God's perfect will for us to all be healthy and whole, no baby would be born with any birth defect or condition. Each baby would be perfect. In addition, every time anyone asks for healing according to Scriptural mandate, calling the leaders and anointing with oil, then that person WOULD BE HEALED. After all God said it, No?

But reality is, that doesn't happen and while I can accept that and move on and keep my eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of my faith, too many people are too busy obsessing about why it didn't happen, who's to blame, maybe if I just fix this or do that or try hard enough, I can *get* the healing, and take their eyes off Him and put them on themselves, their circumstances, Satan, busy chasing after and working for something that is to be freely given and freely received.

For all your Scripture verses and the number of times that you've been asked, you still haven't addressed why it is that so many people are not healed when they ask for it.

And like Job, I can say.....

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, I will hope in him; .....

Beautiful testimony; thanks and amen!

This is one of the best threads ever! A true testament to Joni and her endurance and outreach. God is great!

For the 100th time, we can't lack faith as it is a gift - God given. It's the same faith we use in believing we are saved. We can't see our sins being washed away, we simply believe God. What we weren't given was unbelief, that's from us.

"Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

We all have to renew our minds. It is an on going process. Our Spirit has all Truth - It's the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead that is in us.

For the 100th time, we can't lack faith as it is a gift - God given.

You're telling the wrong person. I never told anyone that they didn't have enough faith to be healed, but I have heard others being told that.

Yes, God saves us today. Today is the day of salvation.

Scripture is replete with examples of people who didn't get their prayers answered immediately. And I think that's why God told us that salvation is immediate. When it's a matter of eternal life and death, God will answer immediately. He assures us of that with that verse.

Everything else is subject to His discretion.

His only guarantee is that we would be saved for the asking. He didn't give us that verse as a pattern for expecting ALL prayer to be answered like that.

You're telling the wrong person

I was responding to your post.

I never told anyone that they didn't have enough faith

Neither did I. Why would anyone receive those words - surely, they have the Scripture telling them you can have faith and still be in unbelief. I have no idea why this is an issue if one has a bible.

Today is the day of salvation.

What did HE do at the Cross?

Everything else is subject to His discretion.

That's your understanding. How discretionary was he with the lady with the issue of blood?

His only guarantee is that we would be saved for the asking

You don't 'ask' for something that was already doneIt is Finished, you receive it with thanks and gratitude.

The majority of my post above was direct quotations form God’s Word. It is not my opinion. It is not based on someone’s experience. It does not rely on what some denomination preaches or teaches. It is Truth, sometimes directly from the mouth of God Himself.

The Bible can be a Blessing or a curse. If you read it expecting to prove that God is evil, satan will accommodate you. But if you study it and eagerly consume it like the Bread of Life, there is no limit to what you can receive by faith. As God tells His children - I have put before you life and death, Blessing and cursing, and just so they knew what to choose, He told them to choose LIFE! (Deuteronomy 30:19) You have authority over your life. You have to decide if Jesus is your Lord and Savior. You have to receive every promise by faith. God does not force anything on people.

In your next post you quote Job, seemingly taking this for your own confession - “Though he slay me, I will hope in him.” Why would you have hope in someone that would so casually take life? How could that type of a relationship ever blossom and bear any good fruit without any trust? And besides, Job was talking foolishly, and only the Grace of God prevented Satan from stealing his life. God prospered Job IMMENSELY. Satan complained about that and because God had placed a hedge of protection around Job. This is so very plain in Job 1 & 2, Now what brought that hedge down? Fear, worry and unbelief. (Job 3:25-26, see also Ecclesiastes 10:8) Job brought down the hedge and allowed satan to run roughshod over him and only the mercy of God prevented satan from taking his life. (Job 2:6) Even Job’s wife, sounding like some on here, told him to “renounce God and die.” (Job 2:9) Finally, after a couple chapters of foolish talk, unbelief and ignorance, Job has a brief flash of wisdom in Chapter 6:23-24 - Deliver me from the enemy’s hand... teach me to hold my tongue. And then several more chapters until we get towards the end where God calls all Job’s comforters’ words “folly.” (Job 42:8) His friends take offerings to Job and he prays for them. In 42:10 it is said that the Lord turned the captivity of Job. The obvious question is, who had him captive, since it was obviously not God? We then see Job back in a right relationship being not just restored, but receiving twice what he had before.

Paul tells Timothy that - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17) You don’t build a theology off of foolish talk or unbelief. You learn from Job and apply the lessons of his life with the wisdom you learn from the rest of the Word and the Holy Spirit’s guidance so that you can avoid or overcome all satanic attacks. That is exactly what Jesus did in the wilderness. He used the Word to overcome satan’s temptation. This is reinforced in Ephesians where we are to put on (and not remove) the Armor of God that includes: the Breastplate of Righteousness, Belt of Truth, Helmet of Salvation, the Gospel of Peace and the shield of faith to stop ALL the fiery darts of the enemy. The only offensive weapon listed - the Sword, which is the Word of God. (Ephesians 6:10-17)

These threads are oozing with anger, frustrations, unbelief and accusations. It is not exactly an environment that is conducive to really hearing and discussing God’s Word in LOVE. If you continually talk unbelief, fear, doubt etc, you will harvest that in abundance. The church I attended in my youth continually told people to not expect anything. And guess what, most people got nothing but sickness, failure and death. But my parents dug into the Word and started catching a glimpse of all that God has given us. I could share with you some of God’s goodness that I have witnessed, but that will not help you. You need to see it in God’s Word. That is how faith comes. Looking at the faith success or failure of someone else will not build your faith. That is one of the reasons Jesus discouraged people from telling others about the miracles. They needed to believe in Him, not in the miraculous. Wonders would attract the curious, but the Word (Jesus) is the Rock that everything is built on, a sure and secure foundation. (Matthew 7:24-27)

If God is willing to heal EVEN ONE person, He is willing to heal all, because he does not play favorites (Acts 10:34). God has been healing folks since Creation. That is His nature. That continues today to those that reach out in faith. In fact the leper (Matthew 8:1-4, Mark 1:40-45, Luke 5:12-14) asked if Jesus was willing to make him clean. Jesus answered his question and your questions: “I am willing.” That should settle that question in your heart for all of eternity.

People point to birth defects as a sign that God does not heal. Why we are looking at fallen man for signs or proof, when we have God’s WORD? Its a question for another time. Let’s look to the Word to see if we can possibly find God’s will in this matter. There was a man born blind and the disciples asked Jesus, who sinned, the man (in the womb since he was born blind) or his parents? It was a foolish question and one that was not answered completely at this point in Jesus’ ministry. There were three possible answers - the man, the parents, or neither. Neither is exactly what Jesus answered. In fact, the CAUSE did not matter to Jesus. All he cared about was making the man WHOLE. Because Jesus is the light of the world. He came to do ONLY the Father’s will. And he never changes. And the religious leaders had yet another conniption fit over this miracle. (John 9:1-41) I love the man’s confession in front of the religious leaders:

“This is amazing! You claim to know nothing about him, but the fact is, he opened my eyes! It’s well known that God isn’t at the beck and call of sinners, but listens carefully to anyone who lives in reverence and does his will. That someone opened the eyes of a man born blind has never been heard of—ever. If this man didn’t come from God, he wouldn’t be able to do anything.”

Everywhere Jesus encountered faith the Centurion, Nobleman, Jairus, bleeding woman, he healed. But he “marveled at their unbelief” in his hometown and could only heal a few sick folks. (Mark 6:6) Do you want to be commended for having great faith like the Centurion who simply took God at his Word, or have Jesus marvel at your unbelief? Unbelief, fear, doubt, anger will stop your faith. They are the things that undermine your ability to receive from God. Faith is what connects to God and what pleases him. Unbelief stops everything. Rather than quote scriptures, here are some references if you are willing.

Faith – The Key to Miracles
Matthew 9:18-25 – Matthew 9:27-31 – Matthew 15:22-28 – Matthew 21:18-22 – Mark 5:22-43 – Mark 9:17-27 – Mark 11:22-26 – Luke 1:37-38 – Luke 17:5-6 – Luke 17:11-19

Unbelief blocks miracles.
Matthew 13:54-58 – Matthew 17:19-20 – Mark 6:4-6

One of the titles of Jesus is Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). The English definition for peace falls far short of the Jewish word Shalom which means:

Completeness, wholeness, health, peace, welfare, safety, soundness, tranquility, prosperity, perfectness, fullness, rest, harmony, the absence of agitation or discord. One definition I have heard is nothing missing and nothing broken. Is there a better definition of what God brings into the life of a Believer?

Jesus came to give YOU SHALOM. Will you receive it?

John 5 - The man at the pool. It is curious that Jesus asks him if he wants to be well. What a strange question. Could it be possible that people choose to remain sick? I would hope not. Could it be that desire plays a role in healing. Jesus NEVER used idle words.

Look at what the man says. He doesn’t answer directly, but wallows in self pity, frustration and anger, because nobody will help him into the water, where according to legend, he might get healed. Think about this, he has placed his hope for 38 years on a myth!

Jesus spoke just a few words, “Get up! Take your matt and walk.” - But the man is paralyzed! How could he get up? Who was Jesus addressing when he spoke these faith-filled Words?

He at first does not know it was Jesus who spoke healing Words to him and told him to carry his matt. But when he sees Jesus again, Jesus says something curious “Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you.” The man was crippled for 38 years! What sin could he have been committing? Maybe it was...unbelief? The Bible is silent so that falls into speculation. But we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6) And whatever is not of faith is a sin. (Romans 14:23)

The man had picked up his matt and WALKED. This was a tremendous miracle that should have brought great glory to God throughout the city. But here comes the religious folks, theologians and unbelieving Pharisees, demanding him not to carry his matt on the Sabbath. When he informs them it was Jesus who healed him and told him to carry his matt, they want to kill Jesus all the more. They have evidence of God in their midst and their reaction is a desire to persecute and kill. Where do you think that desire came from in the religious leaders? The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. (John 10:10) He is also the accuser of the brethren. (Revelation 12:10)

The Bible is silent as to if anyone else around the pool was healed. It is LUDICROUS to build a theology over the assumption that Jesus healed only this one fellow. While it is entirely possible, however incredibly unlikely, we simply do NOT know. Wouldn’t it be better to place your faith on what we DO KNOW from the Word?

Matthew 4:23-24 – Jesus preached the Good News, healed EVERY disease, EVERY weakness and infirmity.

Matthew 12:15 – Great crowds followed Jesus and HE HEALED THEM ALL!

Matthew 14:14 – Jesus had compassion on the multitude and HEALED THEIR SICK.

Matthew 15:30-31 – The DUMB SPOKE, the MAIMED WERE MADE WHOLE, the LAME WALKED and the BLIND COULD SEE.

Mark 1:32-34 – Jesus cured various diseases and drove out demons in Capernaum.

Luke 4:40 – Jesus laid his hands on people sick with various diseases and CURED THEM ALL!

Luke 6:17-19 – People came to hear Jesus teach and HE CURED THEM ALL!

Luke 7:21-22 – Blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised and the poor hear the Good News.

At the end of John, he adds this reassuring statement: the world does not have room for all that could be written about what Jesus has done. (John 21:25) - For reasons only God knows, the Holy Spirit controlled what was and was not recorded in the Gospels. All the writers had to of known about Paul’s writings and were even ministry partners in the case of Luke. But you will find very little with regard to the revelation of redemption in the Gospels. That is all unveiled in the letters to the Church - the Believers. Jesus was ministering to spiritually dead people, many of which lived under the Old Covenant. Believers are living under a new and much better covenant. (Hebrews 8) You can see most of this throughout Paul’s letters.

Sin, sickness and death entered the world when Adam sinned. Jesus came to reverse this process that is why he is referred to as the last Adam. His sacrifice was complete and addressed every need of humanity. I like how John puts it: The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 John 3:8) You can choose to sin after you have accepted Jesus as your Savior and Lord. And you can choose to be sick and without wisdom as well. But that is NOT God’s will or His best for you. I will never covince you of this Truth. That will only come from the Word, the source of all wisdom.

Selected passages from Psalm 119 AMP - a wonderful Psalm on God’s Word. The author, most likely King David, shows the benefits of LEARNING, MEDITATING, TRUSTING, KNOWING and DOING God’s Word.

Let the proud be put to shame, for they dealt perversely with me without a cause; but I will meditate on Your precepts. v. 78
All Your commandments are faithful and sure. [The godless] pursue and persecute me with falsehood; help me [Lord]! v. 86
According to Your steadfast love give life to me; then I will keep the testimony of Your mouth [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying it]. Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven [stands firm as the heavens]. v. 88-89
Unless Your law had been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction. I will never forget Your precepts, [how can I?] for it is by them You have quickened me (granted me life). v. 92-93
You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies, for [Your words] are ever before me. I have better understanding and deeper insight than all my teachers, because Your testimonies are my meditation. v. 98-99
How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. v. 103-105
I hate the thoughts of undecided [in religion], double-minded people, but Your law do I love. You are my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word. v. 113-114
Your testimonies are wonderful [far exceeding anything conceived by man]; therefore my [penitent] self keeps them [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying them]. The entrance and unfolding of Your words give light; their unfolding gives understanding (discernment and comprehension) to the simple. v. 129-130
Salvation is far from the wicked, for they seek not nor hunger for Your statutes. v 155
The sum of Your word is truth [the total of the full meaning of all Your individual precepts]; and every one of Your righteous decrees endures forever. v 160
Great peace have they who love Your law; nothing shall offend them or make them stumble. v 165
My lips shall pour forth praise [with thanksgiving and renewed trust] when You teach me Your statutes. My tongue shall sing [praise for the fulfillment] of Your word, for all Your commandments are righteous v 171-172

God’s Word WORKS. IT IS TRUTH. And He is most definitely NOT a liar. Your debate should be with Him, not me. My faith rests on God’s Word, which is His power, not men’s wisdom. (1 Corinthians 2, Hebrews 1)

Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. Romans 3:4

For nothing is impossible with God. Luke 1:37

Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.” Jeremiah 1:12

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? Numbers 23:19

Two questions.

Why didn’t people like Joni get healed when they went with faith that they would?

Why are not all Christians without illness or disabilities?