Posted on 03/16/2012 11:30:32 AM PDT by Monorprise
All other things being equal where would religious marriage would begin: 1: First Sexual encounter (between parties).
2: First conception of a child (between parent parties).
3: First child birth (between parents parties).
4: Religious ceremony at the Church.
5: State Government Sanction.
6: Mutual personal commitment between the parties?
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I realize Marriage involves all of theses things. But supposing that they could happen out of order which one would start the marriage in the eyes of God, science, and most of all your personal opinion?
Well hey....as long as she doesn’t use the sink where you’re brushing your teeth.....
well, I guess it’s defined differently by different people. But in the eyes of the Traditional Church that was founded in the Bible by Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God; marriage is a sacrament of the Church and can only be annuled if it wasn’t entered in good faith even if it was “consummated.”
got that right, the misses does not want the leather recliner in the front room and wants to leave it in the family room where the kids go.
However when I spend time in the family room she sits on the recliner.
I also know people who have been married in a church, broke up through adultery or just stopped loving each other and are now divorced.
What arrangement does God favor? I really don't know in this case. Is he going to condemn the first couple because they don't have a certificate in their top drawer?
When the oaths have been given and accepted. God takes it serious when promises, oaths, or vows are made.
When the oath or vow is broken, the 9th commandment is broken. The 9th commandment is connected to the 3rd commandment, in that a vow between two people is never done outside the view of God, or the anointing of God, therefor God's name is involved, thus the warning to not take oaths lightly found in the Sermon on the Mount.
In the old testament Adultery was based entirely on the marriage status of the woman involved. Married men could carry on and would only be an adulterer if he carried on with another man’s wife.
As Dr. David Jeremiah pointed out: When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, he told her that the man she was living with was not her husband. hmmm so much for common law marriage in the eyes of God.
While your history and scripture is extremely helpful, and your defense of their important quite agreeable. also agreeable is the important of anousement for the oath enforcement portion of marriage among many other perspectives you wisely brought to the table here.
I’m afraid however that your position and the position of the non-catholic faith is a bit unclear.
While it seems inferred that the catholic faith starts marriage at the first act of sex. As you illustrated that is not so clear in the bible as far as other christian faiths are concerned.
Because there are many possible answers in the ambquity I feel obliged to only ask you where you & your faith stand on this particular question, as I have asked of everyone else.
“In the old testament Adultery was based entirely on the marriage status of the woman involved. Married men could carry on and would only be an adulterer if he carried on with another man’s wife.”
Anther most valid historic fact to be taken into consisteraing in determining what act most officaly begins & presumably binds marriage.
This is particular valid if #1 is the answer as the Catholics seem to believe. Because #1 is not possible if either of the parties are “already married”.
When she put the engagement ring on.
Because after that point, any guy who didn’t treat her as my betrothed would be meeting God, real soon :-)
If it was sex between the parties, the Bible wouldn’t have anything to say about heterosexual fornication; just adultery, bigamy (maybe) and deviancy. The first act of what we consider fornication (premarital nookie) would be a wedding.
Personally, I lean toward #6, a mutual commitment with God as the only necessary witness and ultimate officiant. Like Adam’s and Eve’s wedding.
“I know a couple, man and woman, who have been living together for 30+ years, not married. Super devoted to each other through thick and thin. True definition of soulmates to the core.
I also know people who have been married in a church, broke up through adultery or just stopped loving each other and are now divorced.
What arrangement does God favor? I really don’t know in this case. Is he going to condemn the first couple because they don’t have a certificate in their top drawer?”
This is a situation i am aware of.
I think I should tell you that historicaly that the devoted couple in your first case would have historically been regarded as married whether or not they had the official Government or Church Sanction or not. Government Sanctions are of course a recent invention(Last ~100 years or so) of the progressives. To be honest Church sanction in many parts is not a heck of a lot older.
Thus I cannot think it likely that God would much care that theses people did not get the official papers from either of the earthly institutions. I do however think it somewhat more likely that God would care about those who became divorced. It seems there to be a question of faith and faithfulness to ones wife or husband. That given with or without earthly institutional sanction is of little consequence to the real question which is of your faith, your choices, your commitment.
Scripturally, the obligation (hopefully, a light one happily borne) ends at death, and the survivor is at liberty to seek a second (or ninth, if he/she has been terribly unlucky).
It's the same with calling us His Bride. He feels about us like we should feel about our spouse. As we are born again, we should feel absolutely dedicated to our Lord as we can only experience with our own family. He talked of Israel as an "adulterous" nation because they experimented with other gods. He chose that word to try to emote the hurt He felt after all He has done for us. When Jesus told His followers that He must go and prepare a place for us, He was describing a Jewish wedding. The whole Song of Solomon is basically about Jesus calling to His lover to come out and walk with Him, but she is sleping and doesn't want to help Him. She later opens the door to find Him gone. Just as the foolish virgins went to where they buy and sell to get their oil, they came back too late to join the wedding party.
I'm afraid that if you don't love Jesus with all you have, you may never know how much He loved you. He gave up His throne to come and rescue us, yet we reject Him. He suffered unimaginable pain to buy us for Himself. Would you do that for your wife?
To know when you are first married in Gods eyes will be that day that you are willing to die for her, not just spend some money, or travel with her. If your devotion reaches that level, then you might know what marriage was designed for. Is she still beautiful when she is 60? Do you still desire only her company? That is where God is on marriage.
This is why marriage is so important to the church. It is an institution set up by God to show His love for us. It is an abomination to redefine it to a lie.
A prophet was told by God to marry the town whore. He didn't want to because he was a pious man, but God insisted, so he did. Sure enough, the first chance she got, she ran off with another man and the town looked at him like "What did you expect?" Then God ordered the prophet to go find her and bring her home again. That is how God is with us. He is faithful. Are we? Will we forgive and love others as God loves us? Not likely with the divorce records today.
One more thing,....When the Bible speaks of the woman submitting to the man,...be sure and read the part before that. The man MUST love her as Christ loved the church. Many women might do more submitting with a Godly husband.
"...She wouldn't eat her mushrooms."
“If it was sex between the parties, the Bible wouldn’t have anything to say about heterosexual fornication; just adultery, bigamy (maybe) and deviancy. The first act of what we consider fornication (premarital nookie) would be a wedding.”
How does one have sex with a member of the same sex? This i do not believe to be possible, and therefore “marriage” between the two parties is equally not possible.
As for adultery and bigamy both could have been regarded as unfaithful and deceptive acts.
Marriage begins at th4e exchange of vows—the promise of faithfulness to one’s spouse, the promise of love and cherish, the commitment until death. It begins with a spiritual foundation, then proceeds to the physical.
It’s too bad—and shows the state of maturity in America—that a responsible discussion of this question has not been undertaken here.
What about when the "Until death do you part" clause is invoked?
“well, I guess it’s defined differently by different people. But in the eyes of the Traditional Church that was founded in the Bible by Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God; marriage is a sacrament of the Church and can only be annuled if it wasn’t entered in good faith even if it was “consummated.””
This is a valid point in support of the assertion in support of positions #3, #4, #5, and #6.
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