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Southern Baptist Convention lists churches with Women Pastors (vanity)
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Posted on 12/31/2012 9:02:53 AM PST by wonkowasright

It appears that there are multiple churches currently affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention located Virginia that are either led by women pastors, or co-led by women pastors. Is the SBC now departing from its formal opposition and starting to quietly tolerate female pastors to avoid a decline in the number of congregations/members ? Virginias BGAV is unique in how it lists who leads the various churches so its not clear if this is unique to Virginia or is a growing phenomena in other states.

My understanding of Virginia Baptist is that there are two statewide bodies both affiliated with the national Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist General Association of Virginia (BGAV) and Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia (SBCV). These churches and who leads them came from the information on the BGAV and SBC websites as of a couple weeks ago. As with all data it may be changed after that point, may have been inaccurate at the time the list was compiled etc. There may very well be errors in this data. That said the great majority of these are currently listed as churches affiliated with the SBC on the SBC's own official website, as well as on the BGAV website. These are likely being counted in the "total congregations" and "members" data that the SBC is publishing.

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Rev. Jane T. Lyon, Antioch Baptist Church, Red Oak, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=08001
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=8101-23964


(?) Rev. Kelly A. Lane, Bridgewater Baptist Church, Bridgewater, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=04001
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2456-22812


Senior Pastor : Rev. Donna H. Britt, Calvary Baptist, Roanoke, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=38007
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=9237-24016


Co Pastor Rev. Angeline Gullins, Calvary Revival Church, Richmond, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=45065
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2011022015


Multi-Site Campus Pastor: Mrs. Donna Brooks, Coastal Community Church-Corporate Landing Campus, Virginia Beach, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=2808401
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=0000-23452


Senior Pastor : Rev. Lisa Hawkins, Convergence: A Creative Community of Faith, Alexandria, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=23021
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=6260-22302


Co-Pastor: Rev. Colleen Swingle-Titus, Crozet Baptist Church, Crozet, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=02012
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=5171-22932


(?)Rev. Jody Breeding, Garden Baptist Church, Oakwood, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=26011
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=3233-24631


Senior Pastor: Dr. Elizabeth P. Mills, Grace Baptist Church, Richmond, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=37015
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=0134-23221


Senior Pastor: Rev. Pamela Chisholm, Greenbrier Baptist Church, Arlington, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=23028
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=6688-22204


Senior Pastor: Rev. Kathy Shereda, High Hills Baptist Church, Jarratt, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=30019
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=8688-23867


Senior Pastor: Rev. Kathy P. Nicholls, Inglewood Baptist Church, Lynchburg, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=20009
[NO SBC LINK LISTED]


Senior Pastor: Dr. Rebecca Gunter, Lakesie Baptist Church, Henrico, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=37019
[NO SBC LINK LISTED]


Senior Pastor: Rev. Stacy Vanover, Maple Grove Baptist Church, Coeburn, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=44009
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=557-24230


Senior Pastor: Rev. Jillian M. Andrzejewki, Mooreland Baptist Church, North Garden, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=02024
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=3882-22959


http://mbc.avenue.org/pastor.htm [Mooreland Baptist Church] website states
During Jillian's time at Chamberlayne Baptist Church she experienced all parts of ministry: administration, pastoral care, preaching, leading meetings, and planning worship. She has also taught children's classes and Adult Bible study. She has seen Chamberlayne undergo a visioning process. She also did her internship for seminary there.
She was ordained at Chamberlayne in May of 2010.[NOTE: Chamberlayne isn't in this list but is an SBC church so there are more than just the churches in this list]


Co-Pastor: Rev. Lois Paige, New Canaan Baptist Church, Richmond, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=37087
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2004051566


Co-Pastor: Jessica Williams, Nomini Baptist Church, Montross, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=36024
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=8429-22520


Multi-Site Campus Pastor: Rev. Angie Frame, Powhatan Community Church - Virtual Campus, Powhatan, VA [Church Website says "Online Campus Pastor"
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=2104802
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2007089205


Interim Pastor: Rev. Jane Cicione, Preddys Creek Baptist Church, Barboursville, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=WC029
[NO SBC LINK]


Senior Pastor: Rev. Jennifer J. Kelly, Rapidan Baptist Church, Wolftown, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=40028
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=4709-22748


Senior Pastor: Rev. Dr. Sabrina St. Clair, Rhema Christian  Ministry, Fredricksburg, VA [appears to mix other data, such as a location with the pastors name]
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=13078
[NO SBC LINK]


Senior Pastor: Rev. Nancy S. McDaniel, Rhoadesville Baptist Church, Rhoadsville, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=14030
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=5364-22542


Multi-Site Campus Pastor: Mrs. Sheri Crawford, Spring Hill Baptist Church, Ruckersville, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=203401
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=7473-22968


Senior Pastor: Rev. Mary Ann Mann, Tomahawk Baptist Church, Midlothian, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=21033
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2044-23112


Senior Pastor: Rev. Nancy R. Poti, Trinity Church, Baptist,  Richmond, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=37074
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=4936-23113


Senior Pastor: Rev. Carol H. Johnston, Troutville Baptist Church, Troutville, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=38061
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=1026-24175
According to what appears to be the local church website, Carol Johnston is senior pastor at Troutville Baptist Church. She was called here first as an interim pastor in September 1999, and then as senior pastor in February 2000. Before arriving at Troutville, Carol served at Grandin Court Baptist for 20 years.


Senior Pastor: Rev. Anna P. Miller, Westhunt Baptist Church, Richmond, VA
http://www.vbmb.org/apps/Churches/maps.cfm?ChurchID=10051
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/church.asp?ID=2983-23294


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Can the Pajama's Media help me understand the above ? Is it limited to Virginia ? I was involved in the baptist world for many years, but have lost touch with much of it now. It looks to me like, in liberal areas ( metro areas ) the baptists are softening on the idea of women pastors. Though I'm sure in the majority of areas this is not the case.

A few years ago First Baptist of Decatur reportedly was expelled from the SBC when it called Julie Pennington-Russell as its lead pastor. However according to the Texas Baptists ( formerly BGCT ) website, though not currently listed anymore, it is my understanding that Mrs. Russell was allegedly a lead speaker at a recent Women in Ministry conference. The Texas Baptists website is promoting the idea of women pastors and appears to be suggesting the should be ordained. This seems to indicate that in the liberal areas of Texas a move toward a more progressive approach is being made as well.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: baptist; church; pastor; sbc; southernbaptist; virginia
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1 posted on 12/31/2012 9:02:58 AM PST by wonkowasright
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To: wonkowasright

Some of those churches you listed are actually members of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and not the SBC (although most probably still support SBC missions).


2 posted on 12/31/2012 9:10:25 AM PST by gov_bean_ counter (Hope and Change has become Attack and Obfuscate.)
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To: wonkowasright

More info...

http://www.thefellowship.info/About-Us


3 posted on 12/31/2012 9:13:47 AM PST by gov_bean_ counter (Hope and Change has become Attack and Obfuscate.)
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To: wonkowasright

This is so sad in my opinion. The Bible, throughout, designates men.


4 posted on 12/31/2012 9:14:31 AM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: gov_bean_ counter

That may very well be true that they are members of both. Indeed Texas Baptists at the state level are jointly affiliated with CBF and SBC. The silence of the SBC about Texas Baptists promoting women pastors on their official website is, to me, a surprising thing.

The thing I’m trying to find out is, and it does appear that way, has the SBC stopped removing churches from its membership lists just because they are calling female pastors.


5 posted on 12/31/2012 9:15:25 AM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: wonkowasright

My Texas Baptist church is not affiliated with CBF.


6 posted on 12/31/2012 9:20:38 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: wonkowasright

Wish I could help. Mrs. GBC any I currently have a membership with a CBF church in Alabama and I don’t have any past with the SBC and do not plan on having a future with them.


7 posted on 12/31/2012 9:22:06 AM PST by gov_bean_ counter (Hope and Change has become Attack and Obfuscate.)
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To: wonkowasright

The SBC is bottom up. For a church to be removed, someone would have to make a complaint about the church, and a vote taken at the conference.


8 posted on 12/31/2012 9:23:49 AM PST by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: Resolute Conservative
My Texas Baptist church is not affiliated with CBF.

I don't doubt what you say at all. At your local church level and I suspect most of the texas baptist churches are not affiliated with CBF. However at the state association level the CBF is currently listed as a Partner right next to the Southern Baptist Convention on the official website in the links at the bottom.

Indeed the money flowing through the
BCGT ( Texas Baptists ) is routed to either the SBC or CBF now .

The upshot being that the state level has quietly taken a far more liberal stance than most of its member churches.
9 posted on 12/31/2012 9:32:56 AM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: wonkowasright; Resolute Conservative
The second link I posted was hosed up : http://texasbaptists.org/give/cooperative-program/2/
10 posted on 12/31/2012 9:34:42 AM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Salvation
Check it again. Women were the first ones chosen by Jesus to preach the good news:

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.

But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”

So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
Matthew 28:1-10

It was also the Samaritan woman at the well whom He revealed Himself as 'Messiah'. Jesus did more for equality for women than anyone else ever has.

11 posted on 12/31/2012 9:46:18 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: Hoodat

But they were NOT the prebyters. Read Paul to Timothy, please.


12 posted on 12/31/2012 9:56:51 AM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: Hoodat

Giving out the Gospel is the job for all believers in our public ministry. The office of Elder/Pastor and Deacon is male only: and that is doctrine from Scripture in its precise context.


13 posted on 12/31/2012 9:58:39 AM PST by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: Hoodat; Salvation
The given passage does not give a commission to preach.

It is an instruction to give a specific piece of news to the disciples.

Jesus did more for equality for women than anyone else ever has.

That was not even a concept at the time.

Nor is it a goal of the Gospel.

Couching your exegesis in post-French Revolution terminology does not do it any favors.

The implied notion here is that being a pastor or a preacher is a "human right" instead of a calling.

Also implied is the notion that men and women are interchangeable equivalents, as opposed to the biblical concept that all human beings share in a divinely-bestowed dignity, each with their own responsibilities.

14 posted on 12/31/2012 9:59:43 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wonkowasright

What I find interesting about this is the fact that these women deliberately violate this Biblical teaching:

“I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies].” 1 Timothy 2:12(Amplified Bible translation)

yet at the same time these women believe it is sinful to baptize an infant which the Bible itself never forbids.


15 posted on 12/31/2012 10:01:19 AM PST by ReformationFan
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To: wideawake

As far as I know all the apostles were men. LOL! Christ called men! How about that?


16 posted on 12/31/2012 10:02:01 AM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: wonkowasright

Churches in the SBC are independent. They are not tied to a set of rules to be maintained. Our local county Baptist association kicked out a church that elected women deacons. While an SBC church, they do not tell us who we can hire as pastor. That said, our church would not hire a female pastor. We stick to the biblical rules.


17 posted on 12/31/2012 10:05:49 AM PST by RetiredArmy (1 Cor 15: 50-54 & 1 Thess 4: 13-17. That about covers it.)
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To: Salvation
Indeed, and women as pastors is a deal breaker and most "churches" that allow that also belong to the extremely liberal National Council of Churches.

• African Methodist Episcopal Church
• The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
• Alliance of Baptists
• American Baptist Churches in the USA
• Diocese of the Armenian Church of America
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
• Church of the Brethren
• The Coptic Orthodox Church in North America
• The Episcopal Church
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Friends United Meeting
• Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• International Council of Community Churches
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America
• Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
• Mar Thoma Church
• Moravian Church in America Northern Province and Southern Province
• National Baptist Convention of America
• National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc.
• National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
• Orthodox Church in America
• Patriarchal Parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
• Philadelphia Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
• Polish National Catholic Church of America
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
• Reformed Church in America
• Serbian Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. and Canada
• The Swedenborgian Church
• Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
• Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
• United Church of Christ
• The United Methodist Church •

18 posted on 12/31/2012 10:08:00 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Salvavida

Great tagline!

Amen, amen, amen!


19 posted on 12/31/2012 10:13:19 AM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

“Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Orthodox Church in America
Patriarchal Parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
Serbian Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. and Canada
Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America”

Really? I thought the Eastern Orthodox Church was pretty strict about limiting their priesthood to men only.


20 posted on 12/31/2012 10:14:17 AM PST by ReformationFan
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To: wonkowasright

Is the SBC now departing from its formal opposition and starting to quietly tolerate female pastors to avoid a decline in the number of congregations/members ?

Maybe, if “avoid” means to accelerate.


21 posted on 12/31/2012 10:20:14 AM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: Salvation

I am more interested in the instructions of Christ rather than the desires of man.


22 posted on 12/31/2012 10:24:11 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: ReformationFan
Not all "churches" on this list would necessarily allow women pastors but it is likely that almost all churches that do allow them, also belong to the extremely liberal NCC>

For anyone who does not know about the NCC, it is worth the time to google and read.

The NCC is a Commie front group.

23 posted on 12/31/2012 10:24:35 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Salvavida

Are you saying that it’s OK for women to preach as long as they don’t hold the office of ‘preacher’?


24 posted on 12/31/2012 10:27:27 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: wideawake

VERY GOOD!


25 posted on 12/31/2012 10:33:20 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Hoodat
Your apologetic is faulty because you take a few verses and run them without regard to context. The context of the entire New Testament is that men are designated leaders. The noun and adjective endings of world related to the duties of pastors and elders are all masculine. There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament that sanctions women pastors.

Women had significant leadership roles in the New Testament. Priscilla, the fast friend of Apostle Paul, was a woman whom I can only admire. She was so well grounded in Scripture taught by Paul, that she and Aquila brought Apollos, who has been called the Golden-Throated Orator of the First Century Church, to their home to teach him the correct interpretation of Scripture. (Apollos was teaching and preaching based upon the teachings of John the Baptist, which were incomplete because John the Baptist was martyred before the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.)

Priscilla risked her life for Apostle Paul. She was a brave, significant woman whom I look forward to seeing Heaven.

She was not a pastor.

I know that you apparently latch onto revisionist teaching that somehow maneuvers women into pastoral leadership responsibilities. To come to those conclusion, one would have to ignore completely the principles of of sound Biblical exegesis. In other words, you can't get to women pastors from the New Testament.

26 posted on 12/31/2012 10:42:38 AM PST by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: Hoodat; Salvation
I am more interested in the instructions of Christ rather than the desires of man.

Leaving aside that your insupportable interpretation of the Gospel is a perfect example of a human desire being read into a text, what are you arguing here against Paul?

That the letters of Paul are inferior to the Gospels?

That the Gospels represent a higher canon within the larger canon of Scripture?

That John is a more truthful and reliable book of Scripture than Timothy is?

27 posted on 12/31/2012 10:42:38 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Hoodat
No. I'm saying that "preacher" isn't an office in the church. Words mean stuff.

Look, I'm not making up what I want to see in church. There hve been volumes written on this subject; so it's not a new thing. But when you take the entire tenor of Scripture + all of the passages that SPEAK DIRECTLY to the issue, you can come to no other conclusion that women cannot hold either of the two offices in the NT church. At least not biblically.

With that said, sinful man has always been free to "Do what is right in his own eyes."

28 posted on 12/31/2012 10:54:39 AM PST by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: wideawake

Read the first two words of 1 Timothy 2:8.


29 posted on 12/31/2012 11:13:55 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: righttackle44
There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament that sanctions women pastors.

Does this apply to the other four folds of ministry as well? Or does it only apply to pastors?

Incidentally, Priscilla actually helped run a church out of her own home.

30 posted on 12/31/2012 11:21:49 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: Hoodat
Read the first two words of 1 Timothy 2:8.

I assume you mean the first word, boulomai, "I will."

I presume you are arguing here that Paul's teaching is inferior to his Master's, and that we can thus write off such apostolic teaching.

Should we surmise that what Paul and the Lord want are two different things?

And that inclusion of Paul's teaching in the canon is somehow a mistake?

Why are these epistles, then, in the canon to begin with?

31 posted on 12/31/2012 11:29:32 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake; Hoodat

>>That the letters of Paul are inferior to the Gospels?

They aren’t inferior. They are letters written to a specific church for a specific purpose. We can learn from those letters, but they must always be taken in context. To quote isolated scripture from an epistle without considering the whole letter and the reason it was written is wrong. And in a case where gospel and epistle are at odds, we should always stand on the side of Christ’s words.


32 posted on 12/31/2012 11:38:23 AM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: wonkowasright
I believe you have this wrong. It is not the Southern Baptist's position to allow women as pastors. Please read their most current position on this subject:

Southern Baptists and Women Pastors

33 posted on 12/31/2012 12:03:00 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

You are correct about the official statement, and that is why I was intrigued to notice the disparity between the official statement and practice. My question is are they ignoring the fact that a large number of churches they count as members of the SBC ordain women anyway.

It certainly looks that way.


34 posted on 12/31/2012 12:21:28 PM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Bryanw92; Hoodat
Interesting thought process here:

They aren’t inferior.

So far so good. But later:

in a case where gospel and epistle are at odds, we should always stand on the side of Christ’s words

So, they are inferior, then.

In an imagined conflict, the inferior epistle text must defer to its superior, the gospel text.

Let's look closer:

They are letters written to a specific church for a specific purpose.

How were the Gospels written? Who, humanly, wrote them? To whom were they initially addressed?

At least one of the Gospels was arguably written for the edification of a single person, the friend of the author.

We can learn from those letters, but they must always be taken in context.

Are the gospels free of context? Can they be read uncontextually?

Are only epistles subject to this contextual rule?

Where do we learn this rule of contextuality?

To quote isolated scripture from an epistle without considering the whole letter and the reason it was written is wrong.

What is the argument here? That the first letter to Timothy was not written for the purpose of discussing the nature of public ministry and liturgy? And, alternately, that the gospel account of the Resurrection was actually intended as a treatise on who is qualified for public ministry?

Wouldn't it rather be the reverse? That slicing a line out of the Resurrection account in the gospel and changing its primary connotation from a narrative account of the Resurrection into a secret instruction on public ministry would be the unwarranted isolation and decontextualization of Scripture?

And that reading a passage about qualifications concerning public ministry - in a letter written to a new pastor by an experienced apostle on the topic of public ministry - would be a natural and contextual reading of Scripture?

And in a case where gospel and epistle are at odds, we should always stand on the side of Christ’s words.

If the gospels alone can be considered to be "Christ's words" and the epistles cannot be considered to be "Christ's words" then this begs the larger queestion: what is Scripture?

Most believers throughout history would say "the Word of God", wouldn't they?

Are Christ's words and the Word of God different from one another? If they aren't, then how can one part of Scripture - the epistles - not be Christ's words, not the Word of God and another part - the gospels - can so qualify?

Is one part of Scripture "at odds" with another part?

Your post is utterly self-contradictory and undermines Scripture far more than it supports your argument.

35 posted on 12/31/2012 12:51:27 PM PST by wideawake
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To: wonkowasright
Hmmmm....this is rather interesting. Apparently the BGAV is different from the SBC but in what way it's difficult to determine. But the BGAV appears to be a schism who left the SBC in favor of the more liberal BWA. Although it's a bit odd that they still seem to support the SBC missionary work. I suspect it's probably because they've recently left. Note this:

BGAV Direction - May 2000

And this:


36 posted on 12/31/2012 1:32:51 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: wideawake

>>Your post is utterly self-contradictory and undermines Scripture far more than it supports your argument.

Christ came to Earth to define a Way and to create the Kingdom of God. Paul’s mission was to form a church. Both are essential parts of the scripture because without the Way, there is no church; and without the church, the Way was going to be corrupted (as we learn from the epistles).

And, I’m sorry if you cannot see this, but the words in RED are more important than the rest. I do not worship Paul, no matter how great a MAN he was.


37 posted on 12/31/2012 1:40:03 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92

There’s no passage where Paul instructs people to worship him and not Christ.

The original autographs did not put Christ’s words in red. From what I’ve studied, “red-letter” Bibles were not published until 1900. I do not believe the Triune God of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit is pleased with the “Jesus vs. Paul” false argument that many put forward today to advance certain agendas.

“Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action), So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17


38 posted on 12/31/2012 2:20:25 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: Hoodat

Christ told the apostles in Matthew: “Go out to all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Nothing about women there.


39 posted on 12/31/2012 2:29:38 PM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: ReformationFan

>>“Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action), So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17

So, Paul wrote that letter, intending it to become part of scripture because the letter says that it is scripture? Or did he write it about existing OT scripture and the NT gospels? Paul was a pretty humble guy after his conversion, and writing a letter to another man that was supposed to have the same weight as the words of Christ seems a little pretentious.

BTW, when I said “the words in red”, I did not mean literal red printing. That’s just a figure of speech for the words of Christ (you see, all the words in red in a typical bible were spoken by Christ).


40 posted on 12/31/2012 3:23:12 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: HarleyD

In most cases there is a single state level organization that itself is then part of the SBC. Virginia and Texas are the two exceptions.

The Baptist General Association of Virginia (BGAV) had a schism and Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia (SBCV) broke away. Both the BGAV and SBCV are part of the SBC. The BGAV is by far the larger of the two groups, so the SBC can’t exactly saw off the BGAV without loosing most of Virginia. A similar scenario played out in TX

I noticed this when a story of a BGAV church being expelled for calling an openly homosexual man to the pulpit came out a couple weeks ago. The thing that caught my eye was the church being expelled, or another leaving in sympathy with it, was pastored by a woman. The takeaway was the BGAV was ok with women pastors but not homosexual pastors.

Its been a very quiet development and is completely at odds with the official SBC positions. You will note that all the churches with women pastors I list above ( save 3 i think ) are listed on the official SBC website as SBC churches.

It seems SBC is changing and its doing it by simply ignoring what is happening so it doesn’t have to loose churches/members.


41 posted on 12/31/2012 3:49:03 PM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Salvation
Nothing about women there.

Nothing about anyone else other than the original eleven. Last time I checked, they were all dead. So by your reasoning, going out to the nations died with them.

Do you really want to play that game? Based on your reasoning, one could surmise also that the Lord's Prayer is for men only, and that women should be prohibited from reciting it. Do you see how silly that sounds?

I will ask again, out of the five folds of ministry that Paul outlined to the church at Ephesus, which of the five are open to women?

42 posted on 12/31/2012 3:55:56 PM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: Bryanw92

GOD intended it to become scripture.

Look - if you want to reject scripture and make up your own rules and own church, go ahead. Millions have gone before you. But Paul’s authority and the scriptural status of his letters haven’t been in doubt for well over 1900 years...


43 posted on 12/31/2012 4:20:25 PM PST by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: Hoodat

The apostles selected their successors. All men according to scripture and the history of the Church until this day. This is what is meant by the one holy apostolic church.


44 posted on 01/01/2013 12:09:48 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: wonkowasright
It seems SBC is changing and its doing it by simply ignoring what is happening so it doesn’t have to loose churches/members.

Your post is very interesting. I have attended a Southern Baptist church for many years until about 5-6 years ago when I moved to a PCA church for personal needs. But I have warm feelings toward the Southern Baptists.

The SBC has troubles just about the same as every other group-sound doctrine. The problem with the SBC is that they don't want to admit it. There have been tensions between the Reformed and Aminians members for years. Rather than trying to solve their doctrinal dispute, they just want everyone to pretend that the most important issue is evangelism and ignore sound doctrine. I personnally believe they have this backwards. They need to return to the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. They may be forced to break into a smaller group like the Presbyterians or Lutherans, but in the end they'll be better off for it. Apparently they just want to look the other way. They need to return to their confession.

45 posted on 01/01/2013 4:42:39 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: D-fendr

Can you please identify the twelve apostles living today? Thanks in advance.


46 posted on 01/01/2013 6:43:58 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: HarleyD

My experience is very similar to yours. I was raised SBC(most of my relatives still are) and I still retain great affection for it. However, I discovered the Reformation and Westminster Confession of Faith many years ago via a Ligonier Conference. I’m now in the PCA. I think since the SBC is either the largest or one of the largest Evangelical Protestant denominations, there is a tendency to “not rock the boat” to keep their numbers big. If they had returned to the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689, I might’ve stayed. Many would be surprised to learn how similar it is to the Westminster Confession of Faith.


47 posted on 01/01/2013 9:11:07 AM PST by ReformationFan
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To: Hoodat

Here’s a list of the apostolic successors in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Catholic_bishops_of_the_United_States


48 posted on 01/01/2013 9:16:18 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

There are more than 12 on that list. When did man take it upon himself to divert from the original tradition by adding to the number of apostles?


49 posted on 01/01/2013 9:20:07 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: D-fendr

And I’m still waiting to hear which of the five folds of ministry are open to women.


50 posted on 01/01/2013 9:24:04 AM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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