Posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:12 PM PST by madison10
I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)
I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.
The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.
The Seventh Trumpet—Christ’s Reign Foreseen
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.
Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.
any theology that denies the rapture is denying the Bible
First, let me make it clear that I am pre-trib, I think the Rapture is our glorious hope (Titus 2:13). That said, we will suffer from some persecution, I don't know the extent of it. I am a wimp also, but I found the answer in Daniel 1:8, Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies. Daniel, by himself, could not have opposed Nebuchadnezzar. But he "purposed in his heart" how he was going to act, and the Lord God helped him going through it. Bottom line, I have purposed how I will act if the time comes (not the Tribulation) and I'm leaving it up to Him to help me live up to it!
While you may think every believer must some how be purified by the Tribulation,
The schools are anti Christ, the government policies in most nations including America are anti Christ.
mat 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
No prayer in school means they are not with him so they must be against him.
Beating your Bride would be wrath
Tribulation is not Gods wrath.
Yes, there's is tribulation on us... but that is nothing compared to the Tribulation! We won't be spared from the tribulations of this world, Jesus Himself told us to expect some. But He will spare us from the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Tribulation) because during that time God's attention will be focused on Israel. Eventually, Israel will see that her Messiah has already come and accept Him!
**come up with a true interpretation**
That’s YOPIOS — Your Own Personal Interpretation Of Scripture.
The Saints — with a capital S — are already in heaven. There is no tribulation there.
Where is the word ‘rapture’ in the Bible? It doesn’t exist, because it’s not in the Bible.
Israel will see that her Messiah has already come and accept Him!
I'm sorry fella ... but what you are expousing is simply contrary to scripture.
Rev. 14:9 - 11
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Taking the mark is PROOF that you are NOT a Christian ... because taking the mark is related to worship of the beast.
There is much instruction encapsulated in the above verses. This is 'judgment day' for all. The good the bad and the independents.
Notice this 'tribulation' is not about flesh and blood, food and drink but about religion and those who willingly participate in the 'beast' system of religion. And not one word about a cloud of believers getting on the first vehicle off this earth. There is something that the rapture doctrine ignores and that is gravity.
Agree, but actually there are three resurrections and one instance of transformation (rapture – from the Greek raptorial, IIRC) of the living in Christ in God’s plan. The actual first resurrection was that of the Messiah along with the elders (the first fruits).
Michael Rood condenses it well in his book I’ve mentioned above, *The Mystery of Iniquity*. I highly recommend it. IMO, Rood will be one of the most important interpreters of scripture of our age.
Excerpt:
SEVEN SEALS: Satan’s authority stripped from heaven; his unbridled power unleashed on earth [The tribulation begins].
SIX TRUMPETS: War devastation that gives the New World Order full control on earth:
SEVEN THUNDERS: Great tribulation and persecution of the believers.
SEVENTH and LAST TRUMPET: The Saints’ (first resurrection) [those in the grave in Christ followed immediately by the living in Christ (the transformation/rapture of the living)].
SEVEN BOWLS OF GOD’S WRATH: The day of vengeance of our God; tribulators tribulated.
ARMAGEDDON: Messiah returns to the earth to rule; Satan bound for 1,000 years.
MILLENIUM: The 1000 year reign of Messiah on earth; saints rule with a rod of iron.
THE END: The last (second) resurrection and final judgment [of all that remain who have ever existed on the earth]; death and the grave destroyed.
ETERNITY:The new heaven, and earth, and the new Jerusalem; God wipes the tears away.
I doubt Rood’s interpretation is 100% accurate, but IMO, one of the most accurate interpretations I’ve seen based on all available scripture; including ancient texts.
Indeed.
60+ post before someone finally got it right!
you are correct. the only rapture is upon Christ’s return. the scripture that says the saints meet him in the clouds is interpreted from hebrew (or aramaic or whichever language) as the same word used when an official would come to their town; that they go out and meet him and BRING HIM BACK.
there is scripture that says when Christ comes the elements melt away; that does NOT sound like anyone stays around for another 7 years. And I challenge anyone to point me to the scripture that says Christ makes a secret, quiet visit just for believers, that no one else knows about....
No tribulation for the Saints in this age!
1 Thessalonians 1:10 -
“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
1 Thessalonians 5:9 -
“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The wrath is described in Revelation 6:8 where 1/4 of the population is destroyed.
2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 indicates that the man of sin can’t be revealed until there’s a removal of a restraining power, and who is the restraining power in this age? The body of Christ.
The great tribulation is old testament prophecy and does not include the body of Christ of this age. “Note that there’s no mention in the old testament prophecy of the body of Christ being included”.
The great tribulation is a specific judgement against Israel “Matt 24:21, Jeremiah 30:7; Deuteronomy 30:1-3; Isaiah 61:2 and 3; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 54:7-17 and Jeremiah 30:11.”
Also note that unlike the 2nd coming, when the Church is raptured the earth will be left in “great delusion” (2 Thess. 2:11).
[[A rapture would absolutely collapse the United States. There are Christians every-where in all positions of power, technology, and business]]
this is hwy many scholars think the us isn’t even goign to factor into the end times in regards to beign a power nation to resist the evil one-soem scholars say the US will collapse and be overrun by natiosn itnent on harm to Israel as we’re the only real deterrent to natiosn in regards to protectign Istrael at this point
the coming wrath is the destruction of the earth and the evil ones living here. we’ve had hard times, trials, tribulation for thousands of years,that’s not what He saves us from. He DOES however, set aside those of us who believe to protect us during these times, just like he did for the Israelites during the plagues, and the blood on the door posts and the time of Ezekiel.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.]]
Yes, the dead will be raised and taken first- however there is notrhign i nthe word to indicate that Christ rasies the dead-takes them them ascends back itno heaven without thsoe who are alive- the dead goign first could mean only minutes before Christ brings those alive along with Him when He assends back to heaven
[[“THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT COME TO LIFE UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE COMPLETED.”]]
Be careful here- this is talking about thsoe hwo die DURING the tribulation AFTER the first ressurection- thsi does NOT indicate that Christians who were alive before trib started did not get raptured- ALL the saved dead BEFORE the ressurectio nwere already taken to heaven durign first rapture
“1 Thess. 4:13-18 -
Meeting the church in the air.”
This word meet comes from the Greek word apantesin. This word means to go out to an official visitor and return with him. It is used in 2 other places in the New Testament; Matt 25:6 and Acts 28:15. In both these instances it means returning with.
if you believe in the Lord your God, and Jesus Christ, you have nothing to fear.
secondly, this is why we need to be prepared; have enough food, water, ammo, etc., so that you are not tempted to side with the devil to get your needs met during the time of tribulation.
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