the mighty forum
The lyin' starts tonight
"Ah weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...."
Posted on 02/11/2013 9:47:24 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Full Question
Someone in my parish told me about the prophesies of St. Malachy, which he claims, prove that we are nearing the end of times. What are these prophesies?
Answer
St. Malachy was an Irish bishop who lived in the 12th century. By far the more famous of his prophecies concerns the sequence of popes.
The prophecy consist of 112 short Latin descriptions of future popes; the prophecies were discovered in 1590 and attributed to Malachy. Each description indicates one identifying trait for each future pope, beginning with Celestine II, who was elected in 1130. In some instances, the descriptions hit home in an uncanny way; they have led to centuries of speculation that the prophecy might be a real one.
For instance, the description of the future John XXII (1316-1334) is "de sutore osseo"--"from the bony shoemaker." This pope was the son of a shoemaker, and his family name was "Ossa," which means bone. In another example, "lilium et rosa" was the phrase used to describe the pope who would be Urban VIII (1623-1644), whose family coat-of-arms was covered with "lilies and roses."
Malachy's prophecy has been cast into doubt by the fact that the descriptions become vague from the 16th century on--about the time the prophecy was "discovered" in the Roman Archives. But there have been a few good matches in modern times. The phrase "pastor et nauta," meaning "shepherd and sailor," was attributed to John XXIII. This pope hailed from Venice, historically a city of sailors, and on the day he took office he indicated the goal of his pontificate was to be "a good shepherd."
There have been many more misses, though. Describing the popes to follow John XXIII are the phrases "flower of flowers" (Paul VI), "from a half-moon" (John Paul I), and "from the toil of the sun" (John Paul II), none of which is an obvious connection. After our current pope there are only two left in Malachy's prophecy, "the glory of the olive" and "Peter the Roman." The latter will supposedly lead the Church through many tribulations, concluding with the last judgment.
Is "Malachy's" prophecy legitimate? Probably not. The consensus among modern scholars is that it is a 16th-century forgery created for partisan political reasons.
The true believers think he's "the glory of the olive" because he chose the regnal name Benedict after St Benedict of Nursia, founder of the Benedictine Order. The order's crest contains an olive branch.
Wow!
Source, please?
I don't claim to be an expert in Catholic doctrine, but as I understand it, the statues and pictures in a Catholic church represent people who lived (or their human incarnation), and it's believed that it's little different than someone talking to a picture of a deceased relative and believing that maybe, somehow, they can hear you. You don't think they physically occupy the picture, and you're not really talking to the paper and chemicals.
Also, note that there are no images of the God who gave the commandments to Moses, only the human body one part of His aspect occupied for a time.
No, I wasn’t being serious. If we knew the week and nothing has happened after 6 days and 23 hours, we’d DEFINITELY know it would be in the next hour.
Excellent point.
It seems a similar logic can be applied when speaking of a “month, year decade, etc”.
We Catholics really don’t pay that much attention to this. It’s pretty much been debunked.Why are you?
Is this like a Protestant thing?
I've actually seen a lot of attention paid to it in fringe dispensationalist circles. The sort of folks that blend flying saucers with eschatological speculation with fascination with ancient pseudepigraphical books and conspiracy theories.
No, most of us don't give a hoot about St. Malachy.
Now ... if you're really interested, you might look up what (if anything) the Mothman has to say about it.
Somehow that got the theme music from the 60's Batman show going through my head.
"Do do do do do do do do Mothman!"
Oooh, that's an inspiration right there. I may have to try my hand at waxing lyrical once again!
hmmm
In The Forum To the tune of "In The Ghetto" by Elvis Presley
In the Forum,
to the tune of "In the Jungle" by the Tokens (and a bunch of people going back to Solomon Linda).
In the Forum
the mighty forum
The lyin' starts tonight
....
"Ah weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...."
"Surrender & Evacuation" book sales and speakers fees are way, way, down since the Camping fiasco. Selectively reversing their claim that no Catholic has ever been right about anything to embrace Saint Malachy is nothing for them if it revives sagging sales and fees.
Between Christmas and New Years I went to Barns & Noble to spend a gift card one son gave me. There, in the religion section, I saw an excitable little book explaining the significance in the prophetic calendar of the Mayan 2012 end-of-epoch event. I thought to myself, "There's a book with a really short "use by" date..."
I went looking at amazon for it. Couldn't find it, but I did find this little gem:
End of the World 2012 Book: The Latest Up-to-Date Information on the Mayan Calendar, the Alignment with the Galactic Center, and the December 21 2012 Mayan Prophecies?Will the World End in 2012?.
Best part: "Want it Wednesday, Feb. 13? Order within 18 hrs 42 mins, and choose One-Day Shipping at checkout.".
Ooops
People who can overlook the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD in order to embrace the interpretation of an author or speaker won't have any problem overlooking a a Catholic Saint being thrown into the mix.
The only person I have ever encountered who did anything with the place of the AD 70 destruction of the Jerusalem temple in the "prophetic calendar" is the late Presbyterian scholar Meredith Kline, in his Covenant of the Seventieth Week.
Daniel had prayed for the restoration of the Jerusalem temple, the paramount sacramental symbol of Israel’s covenant relation to Yahweh. The prophecy of the seventy weeks assured him that his prayer would begin to be answered at once and that the restoration of the covenant community would be completed in what is portrayed as a jubilee period. Then the prophecy went on to disclose the ultimate unfolding of the covenant and the paradoxical prospects that lay in store for the temple at that later time. After being restored, the Jerusalem temple would again be made a den of abomination, evoking another and final desolation. Israel’s Lord would pour out on the rebellious vassal-nation the full vengeance of His broken covenant. But though the curse would be executed to the uttermost, the blessing of the covenant would be secured for the many who were the elect and true Israel. Before the curse terminated the old Mosaic order, Messiah would institute the new covenant order, in which the old people and city and temple would find continuity and consummation. Before the Jerusalem temple was levelled, the foundations of the everlasting temple of the Spirit, which is Christ and His church, would be laid. This new, anti typical restoration of God’s temple would be the achievement of what is portrayed as ten jubilee periods.In the course of the climactic seventieth week, masiah nagid, the anointed priest-king, would make the covenant prevail both in renewal and in judgment. Cut off in death, Messiah would make priestly reconciliation for iniquity, so perfecting sacrifice forever and instituting the new covenant. Then exercising His royal heavenly rule over all the nations, Messiah in the midst of the seventieth week would send forces of destruction against the Jerusalem temple, so making the old ritual system cease [43] and bringing the old covenant to its end. [44]
When we survey the fulfillment of Gabriel’s prophecy from our vantage point, it appears that the last half of the seventieth week is the age of the community of the new covenant, disengaged from the old covenant order with whose closing days its own beginnings overlapped for a generation. In the imagery of the New Testament Apocalypse, the last half week is the age of the church in the wilderness of the nations for a time, and times, and half a time (Rev. 12:14). Since the seventy weeks are ten jubilee eras that issue in the last jubilee, the seventieth week closes with the angelic trumpeting of the earth’s redemption and the glorious liberty of the children of God. The acceptable year of the Lord which came with Christ will then have fully come. Then the new Jerusalem whose temple is the Lord and the Lamb will descend from heaven (Rev. 21:10,22) and the ark of the covenant will be seen (Rev. 11:19), the covenant the Lamb has made to prevail and the Lord has remembered.
(Worth a read, IMHO, though I can hear the hissing from certain quarters from here.)
And how about the catholic ten commandments excludes the thou shalt not make any graven images nor bow down to them or worship...
No, they don't. They have the same text everyone else does. They do divide them differenty. And, BTW, Lutherans divide the 10 commandments the same way -- conflating what most Protestants see as the first two, and dividing "thou shalt not covet" into two.
My, that's rather convenient. Particularly when the Holy Spirit isn't validating that interpretation, and there's soooo much unanimity among Protestant exegetes!
Beware the Weedy Deedy Man!
(Has anyone pointed out that this is all just a load of malachy malarkey?)
Do you mean the latter Malachy prophecies, the early and late ones, or any prediction made by any saint that doesn't fit your world view?
Not sure how representative of Catholics you are. Your profile page says you want to outlaw Islam in the western world. That certainly isn't the position of any recent pope, nor most Catholics. In fact, it is a Taliban position but in reverse.
Oh grow up!
I resisted making a comment about “St. Malarky”.
I recommend "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Dr. Kenneth Gentry, Jr to anyone and everyone who brings up the subject of the impending "Surrender & Evacuation". As far as I'm concerned, there's no way to argue convincingly against what Gentry carefully sifts through to arrive at his conclusion that the book of Revelation was written in the early 60s AD, well before the 70 AD destruction of Jersusalem. That alone undermines a lot of the interpretations and variations on interpretations that are constantly being pumped out. If I recall correctly, he's a Presbyterian pastor or at least he was. He may have moved on to teaching or something by now.
I've wondered why Daniel being told words are closed up and sealed to the end of the time isn't more logically connected to Daniel being under the Old Covenant. His not seeing beyond the end of the OC makes a lot of sense to me but I haven't run anyone else who even considered that so I've never really dug into it. The book you've recommended looks like what could finally end my wondering about that point. As with Daniel who interpret to suit their own agenda, Christ makes a very detailed prophecy that fits the destruction of Jerusalem to a "T" but people rob Him of praise He is due and worthy of in order to fit His words their preconceptions. I don't see how that squares with following Christ and giving Him all Glory and Honor.
As I run into ever more twisted and fractured little Surrender & Evacuation stuff from people, I've realized just how little it would take for someone to trot out a strong delusion and draw the majority of people away from Christ without their even thinking about it. It seems like anything that has the "special knowledge" appeal of Gnosticism never fails to lead people astray.
Thanks a lot for the recommending this book and I hope things are doing well or better for you.
Regards
I've wondered why Daniel being told words are closed up and sealed to the end of the time isn't more logically connected to Daniel being under the Old Covenant.
Geerhardus Vos, in his Pauline Eschatology, has a chapter in which he deals with how time language changes from old testament to new, and how in the old there's often a kind of sliding perspective ("the latter days" doesn't always have the same referent). That might be worth a look for you.
Reading through the link you provided, I'll have to add that to my lengthy list of "must read" books. Given that you recommend it and the year is young, I'll even put it in with what I hope to be able to afford this year.
Which? Kline, or the whack-a-doodle 2012 book (soon to be available at find garage sales everywhere).? :-).
(Kline can mess with your head.)
I recommend "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Dr. Kenneth Gentry, Jr
Preterist postmillenial (to use modern categories), correct?
LOL. No problem.
Preterist postmillenial (to use modern categories), correct?
Yes, that would be the right categorization as I understand the categories but I"m not sure whether he's and postmillennial or amillennial.
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