Posted on 03/12/2013 9:27:52 AM PDT by Colofornian
I did not expect to meet so many atheists when I moved to Utah seven years ago. But I should have known better: America as a whole is secularizing, and Mormonism itself has a “scorched earth policy.” My Mormon girlfriend in high school once essentially said, “If the LDS Church isn’t true, I don’t know that I could ever believe in God.” Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God, and instead teaches a kind of naturalism or materialism: everything is matter, even spirits, and everything is subject to eternal laws of ultimate nature, even the gods. It feeds its people conspiracy theories about the corruption of the Bible, and it scares the heck out of Mormons over non-Mormon churches: if you don’t stay with the One True Church, you’ll have to settle for an abominable evangelical church with a corrupt pastor who is a minister of Satan.
That is a colorful way of putting it, but you get the point.
It is depressing that so many people leave Mormonism only to become agnostics or atheists. Fortunately, atheists have a hard time staying atheists. Their children are probably much more open to the Biblical gospel than Mormons are. I suspect God is up to something — he has multi-generational plans we’ve never dreamed of. If giving people the truth about Mormonism’s history and the truth about the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ statistically increases the odds of a person becoming a self-confessed agnostic or atheist, then so be it. God is sovereign and I am not here to be a social engineer or to play God. My job as an ambassador of Jesus is to preach the word of truth in love, and let the chips fall where they may. Fortunately, there is the fruit of ex-Mormon Christians to celebrate.
I used to be intimidated to talk to atheists. They are, in my experience, generally confident about their atheism and have tough questions. But over time I discovered that the average atheist hasn’t read a substantive book defending atheism or theism, and gets his intellectual prowess from…image memes and YouTube. Today, I like to start off conversations with atheists by asking, “Have you ever read a good book defending atheism or theism?” Usually they haven’t. “Have you ever heard any good arguments for the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus?” Usually they haven’t. “What are the strongest arguments for theism or Christianity, and what about them do you find lacking?” Blank stare. “What do you think are some of the most difficult questions for atheism to answer?” Ughhh…
These are great introductory teaching moments. “Would you mind if I shared a few good arguments for the existence of God and for the resurrection of Jesus?” What an awesome opportunity, especially when it culminates in a presentation of the most beautiful (and true) story in the world: God, yes, God, became a man, suffered with us and for us, and paid our penalty on the humiliating and shameful cross, and showed us the best display of sacrificial love there has ever been, simultaneously vindicating the righteousness of God, raising three days letter, showing us that the Lord Jesus Christ has all authority under heaven and earth and infinite power to keep his promises.
My favorite argument for the existence of God is the “moral argument for God.” I push it really hard:
1. If there is no God, there are no objective moral values or duties.
2. There are objective moral values and duties.
3. Therefore, God exists.
The really interesting thing about this argument is that atheists disagree with each other and don’t know it. Some affirm both premises and simply haven’t followed them through to the conclusion. Some affirm premise #1 and disaffirm premise #2, others disaffirm premise #1 and affirm premise #2. Call me a rascal, but when I’m being dog-piled by atheists, I love to get them arguing with each other. The argument is a great way to simultaneously engage someone’s intellect, spiritual intuitions, and suppressed presuppositions, all at the same time.
You can hear more about the moral argument for God here. But don’t let YouTube suffice: read a good book. Some of you are, like me, at times utterly sick of reading about, thinking about, and discussing Mormonism. Take the opportunity to read some good literature that both engages atheism and supports the basics of Biblical Christianity. The ironic thing is that you can take what you learn and share it with not only your atheist neighbors, but also your Mormon neighbors. I dare say that all of the evidences, arguments, and Biblical declarations that atheists need to hear are things that Mormons equally need to hear. Mormons are atheists in embryo. As Mormons are, ex-Mormon atheists once were; as ex-Mormon atheists are, Mormons may be. To quote The Dark Knight Rises out of context: “There is a storm coming.” Mormon parents need to stop asking themselves, “Will my children remain in the LDS Church?”, and start asking, “When my children leave the LDS Church, will they believe in Jesus?” Not if, but when. It’s happening in Utah, and it’s happening fast. Mormons have a hard time imagining what being a Christian theist would be like outside of Mormonism. I want to help start this process of imagination.
Addendum: Ten Discussion Questions for Atheists and Agnostics
Is there anything you reasonably believe to be true, yet can’t empirically demonstrate?
Are there any objective moral values or duties?
Is torturing babies for fun morally objectively wrong?
Does atheism have a ‘problem of evil’?
Does every effect have a sufficient cause?
Do you trust your cognitive faculties?
To what extent and why?
Is an infinite regress possible?
Is it possible that God exists?
Is truth important for its own sake?
Is the question of God’s existence important?
Do you feel angst or sorrow over the absurdity of life?
What do you think of the person of Jesus?
Have you ever heard of the “trilemma”?
Philosophical discussion important, but secondary and supplemental to direct preaching. People are not only emotional and spiritual beings, but also intellectual beings, so I consider it a respectful and loving thing to engage a person intellectually.
We are all fools for something. I choose to be a fool for Jesus. “If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become ‘fools’ so that you may become wise.” (1 Corinthians 3:18) Be a “fool” with me and preach the ridiculous gospel of Jesus Christ. Self-confessed atheists are no different than the rest of us inadvertent “practical atheists” who sin as though God does not exist. We need to repent of trusting ourselves and cry out to Jesus in brokenhearted, child-like faith.
God is good, and Jesus has risen,
Aaron
Not uncommon = common.
You post a smear from "a former mormon friend" of yours and "she confirmed".
What is "not uncommon" sure reads as "is common" in my opinion. If not, please explain the difference.
IMO it is all too "common" on these threads for mormon defenders to smear and slander when they cannot provide facts to rebut the information that is posted here....or should I say, "it is not an UNCOMMON practice?
some who leave the Mormon church conclude there are no moral restraints and act accordingly.
______________________________________________
Why would they need to leave ???
Its within Mormonism that the lack of moral restraints and acting accordingly occur..
Mormonism was invented to cover up and excuse immoral behavior...
the basic tenet of the false religion is adultery...
d&c 132 is still a vald part of the religions beliefs..
many people have left when they found out that the inventer of Mormonism, Joey Smith, was a serial adulterer with 40+ women at least 11 of them already married to other men...
the last “prophet” of Mormonism died in 1945 still practicing polygamy..
as did all of them before and after 1890...
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Yes well the hatred that Mormons have for the LORD Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible and Christians is evil...
but at least the Mormons dont behead us anymore because we are Christians or exterminate us and steal from us and steal our women because we are Christians any more...
at least I dont think so...
However their ugly words can be killers...
and they do come to our doors to bash us...
Say can you deo something about your hateful 50,000 Mormon salersmen/”missionaries” with their poopy mouths ???
I dont like being attacked verbally by Mormons at my own door because I am a Christian...
surely thats a hate crime...
That is quite true. In fact, there is excellent data showing that people largely base their opinion as to the truth of a statement on the intensity with which the person telling them shows that HE believes it. Thus the eternal story of the fanatic gathering followers, the cult leader, etc.
There are many accounts of nurses and doctors being drawn into a paranoid schyzo’s fantasies, helping him escape from the loony bin, etc. NOBODY believes what he says more intensely than a paranoid schyzo. Which makes him very convincing to many people.
Color me skeptical. I've had many conversations with Mormon missionaries and they have always been polite to a fault. I assume they are trained to be this way, as indeed anybody filling this role must be to be effective.
Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is thereby attacking you verbally?
That could be interpreted in two ways. I've never paid attention to the percentage of LDS registered voters who voted, or LDS members of age who are registered voters.
I do know, from Pew and other polls, that a higher percentage of 'evangelical Christians' voted for Mitt Romney over Obama than did LDS members. Romney received only 78% of the LDS vote in 2012. Non-hispanic Catholics voted at a higher rate for Romney than did LDS voters.
Nana states I dont like being attacked verbally by Mormons at my own door because I am a Christian...
Perhaps it doesn't occur to some that the very fact that the message mormon missionaries bring to the doors of Christians is an attack on their faith. Their message is that the mormon church is "the only true church on the face of the earth" and "the only way to salvation is through taking part in arcane rituals in mormon temples."
You ask, "Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is thereby attacking you verbally?"...."disagree" is a false description of the mormon message...that message is a frontal attack on the belief of a Christian, comparable with someone knocking on your door and saying, "Sherman, your child is the ugliest thing I have ever seen."
That has been the message sent out by the mormon church to the world for 180 years.
You mean like this:
“No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.
Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998
Christianity, is a perfect pack of nonsense, the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167
The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God.
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171
Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.”
Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176
Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom.
Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 10:127
Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.
Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225
What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing. Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God. Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225
The Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable … but with the Bible it was not and is not so, it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
Sorry, I disagree.
Your message equates to any evangelization being a hate crime. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and indeed anybody else would have an equal right to be offended by a polite Christian calling on them.
After all, Christ said, “Nobody comes to the Father except thru me,” which means all other religions are false, if you take him at his word.
I’m not a Mormon, but I find it really weird for somebody to believe that a Mormon’s beliefs are a personal attack. On this issue, I’m with T. Jefferson. Another man’s beliefs neither pick my pocket nor break my leg.
I hope you realize that until quite recently historically most “Christian” churches had similar attitudes towards other “Christian” churches. Hang around some of the Protestant v. Catholic threads and you’ll see a lot of that attitude is still around.
You mean this hate:
1 Nephi 14:10 (Book of Mormon)
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the
other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great
church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”
Louis Midgley, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, p.11
“The membership of the Mormon church,” Smith writes, “is taught not to ‘question the mysteries’: ‘When the Prophet speaks,the thinking has been done”.
History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.19, p.408
(Joseph Smith)
In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109,
Brigham Young, March 8, 1863
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Probably because of this:
1 Nephi 14:10 (Book of Mormon)
“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the
other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great
church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”
Louis Midgley, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, p.11
“The membership of the Mormon church,” Smith writes, “is taught not to ‘question the mysteries’: ‘When the Prophet speaks,the thinking has been done”.
History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.19, p.408
(Joseph Smith)
In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109,
Brigham Young, March 8, 1863
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Good article for talking to anyone about Christ.
psstttt.... post 19.
You did it.
We had a guest Baptist preacher in church tell us that Jesus, at the marriage in Canna, “changed the water into pure unfermented grape juice!”
We tried not to burst out laughing.
I think most Mormons don’t know of all the immorality practiced by the church fathers.
“Everytime I see something like this posted I know your hate and bigotry is working overtime. Mostly I know what is pisted is bovine excrement and should taken as the complete utter lie it is intented to be. May God have mercy pn your hate filled soul.”
The truth is offensive to the world. There was nothing hateful in the post at all, and exposing Mormonism, or any false religious system, is perfectly acceptable. Only Jesus Christ is supreme, all other gods are false gods. You conclude by telling him “May God have mercy on your hate filled soul.” So do you really think God will have mercy on your soul, when you deny the exclusivity of Jesus Christ and defend religions that make Him out to be a liar?
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Oh, that explains their unmathced support of Mitt ROmney...
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