I do so wish he would not do that!
Posted on 03/12/2013 9:27:52 AM PDT by Colofornian
I did not expect to meet so many atheists when I moved to Utah seven years ago. But I should have known better: America as a whole is secularizing, and Mormonism itself has a “scorched earth policy.” My Mormon girlfriend in high school once essentially said, “If the LDS Church isn’t true, I don’t know that I could ever believe in God.” Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God, and instead teaches a kind of naturalism or materialism: everything is matter, even spirits, and everything is subject to eternal laws of ultimate nature, even the gods. It feeds its people conspiracy theories about the corruption of the Bible, and it scares the heck out of Mormons over non-Mormon churches: if you don’t stay with the One True Church, you’ll have to settle for an abominable evangelical church with a corrupt pastor who is a minister of Satan.
That is a colorful way of putting it, but you get the point.
It is depressing that so many people leave Mormonism only to become agnostics or atheists. Fortunately, atheists have a hard time staying atheists. Their children are probably much more open to the Biblical gospel than Mormons are. I suspect God is up to something — he has multi-generational plans we’ve never dreamed of. If giving people the truth about Mormonism’s history and the truth about the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ statistically increases the odds of a person becoming a self-confessed agnostic or atheist, then so be it. God is sovereign and I am not here to be a social engineer or to play God. My job as an ambassador of Jesus is to preach the word of truth in love, and let the chips fall where they may. Fortunately, there is the fruit of ex-Mormon Christians to celebrate.
I used to be intimidated to talk to atheists. They are, in my experience, generally confident about their atheism and have tough questions. But over time I discovered that the average atheist hasn’t read a substantive book defending atheism or theism, and gets his intellectual prowess from…image memes and YouTube. Today, I like to start off conversations with atheists by asking, “Have you ever read a good book defending atheism or theism?” Usually they haven’t. “Have you ever heard any good arguments for the existence of God or the resurrection of Jesus?” Usually they haven’t. “What are the strongest arguments for theism or Christianity, and what about them do you find lacking?” Blank stare. “What do you think are some of the most difficult questions for atheism to answer?” Ughhh…
These are great introductory teaching moments. “Would you mind if I shared a few good arguments for the existence of God and for the resurrection of Jesus?” What an awesome opportunity, especially when it culminates in a presentation of the most beautiful (and true) story in the world: God, yes, God, became a man, suffered with us and for us, and paid our penalty on the humiliating and shameful cross, and showed us the best display of sacrificial love there has ever been, simultaneously vindicating the righteousness of God, raising three days letter, showing us that the Lord Jesus Christ has all authority under heaven and earth and infinite power to keep his promises.
My favorite argument for the existence of God is the “moral argument for God.” I push it really hard:
1. If there is no God, there are no objective moral values or duties.
2. There are objective moral values and duties.
3. Therefore, God exists.
The really interesting thing about this argument is that atheists disagree with each other and don’t know it. Some affirm both premises and simply haven’t followed them through to the conclusion. Some affirm premise #1 and disaffirm premise #2, others disaffirm premise #1 and affirm premise #2. Call me a rascal, but when I’m being dog-piled by atheists, I love to get them arguing with each other. The argument is a great way to simultaneously engage someone’s intellect, spiritual intuitions, and suppressed presuppositions, all at the same time.
You can hear more about the moral argument for God here. But don’t let YouTube suffice: read a good book. Some of you are, like me, at times utterly sick of reading about, thinking about, and discussing Mormonism. Take the opportunity to read some good literature that both engages atheism and supports the basics of Biblical Christianity. The ironic thing is that you can take what you learn and share it with not only your atheist neighbors, but also your Mormon neighbors. I dare say that all of the evidences, arguments, and Biblical declarations that atheists need to hear are things that Mormons equally need to hear. Mormons are atheists in embryo. As Mormons are, ex-Mormon atheists once were; as ex-Mormon atheists are, Mormons may be. To quote The Dark Knight Rises out of context: “There is a storm coming.” Mormon parents need to stop asking themselves, “Will my children remain in the LDS Church?”, and start asking, “When my children leave the LDS Church, will they believe in Jesus?” Not if, but when. It’s happening in Utah, and it’s happening fast. Mormons have a hard time imagining what being a Christian theist would be like outside of Mormonism. I want to help start this process of imagination.
Addendum: Ten Discussion Questions for Atheists and Agnostics
Is there anything you reasonably believe to be true, yet can’t empirically demonstrate?
Are there any objective moral values or duties?
Is torturing babies for fun morally objectively wrong?
Does atheism have a ‘problem of evil’?
Does every effect have a sufficient cause?
Do you trust your cognitive faculties?
To what extent and why?
Is an infinite regress possible?
Is it possible that God exists?
Is truth important for its own sake?
Is the question of God’s existence important?
Do you feel angst or sorrow over the absurdity of life?
What do you think of the person of Jesus?
Have you ever heard of the “trilemma”?
Philosophical discussion important, but secondary and supplemental to direct preaching. People are not only emotional and spiritual beings, but also intellectual beings, so I consider it a respectful and loving thing to engage a person intellectually.
We are all fools for something. I choose to be a fool for Jesus. “If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become ‘fools’ so that you may become wise.” (1 Corinthians 3:18) Be a “fool” with me and preach the ridiculous gospel of Jesus Christ. Self-confessed atheists are no different than the rest of us inadvertent “practical atheists” who sin as though God does not exist. We need to repent of trusting ourselves and cry out to Jesus in brokenhearted, child-like faith.
God is good, and Jesus has risen,
Aaron
(I've LONG used the same exact language re: Mormonism's "scorched earth policies" -- altho I've used it more along the lines of the Lds having to rid the world of ANY true Christian churches or ANY true authoritative Christians in order to establish its Ground-Zero narrative need for a restoration from scratch...Hence...Mormons do what Muslims do to us Christians: They call us "apostates." (Islam references us as "infidels"...same thing)
The Lds "scorched earth policies" also wind up permanently taking out many as believing in any god at all...(who wants to believe in a god who has sex with wives, wasn't god from all eternity past, and keeps changing his doctrinal mind on things?)
From the blog: Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God, and instead teaches a kind of naturalism or materialism: everything is matter, even spirits, and everything is subject to eternal laws of ultimate nature, even the gods. It feeds its people conspiracy theories about the corruption of the Bible, and it scares the heck out of Mormons over non-Mormon churches: if you don’t stay with the One True Church, you’ll have to settle for an abominable evangelical church with a corrupt pastor who is a minister of Satan
Mormonism is indeed a form of atheism -- because, being polytheistic, it militates against the ONE TRUE THEISM!
Mormonism's teachings on "a kind of naturalism or materialism" where "everything is matter, even spirits..." can be found here Lds "scripture" D&C 93:29,33:
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be... 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;" (D&C 93:29, 33)
Hence, only Mormonism has this layered type of intelligences -- with no ultimate buck-stops-here authoritative God! (For Mormonism claims that God is no more "eternal" than man! And that man is uncreated, and the elements are eternal)
This is all contained in the very "sacred 'scriptures'" of Mormonism's gods!
“I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the SAME as His Father had done before." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
Pray for Utah...and the atheistic fall-out from Mormonism that is leaving "jack Mormons" everywhere!
As Madaline Murray O’Hair said on the LARRY KING LIVE SHOW back in the early 1990s, (I saw the show)....
“The best atheists are former Mormons and Catholics.”
In before someone wearing magic underwear, calling this post hateful, but providing no contrary evidence - PLACEMARKER
The LDS is more about politics than religion these days. Their advocacy for illegal alien amnesty is disgusting and traitorous.
place marker
True, IMO, though this is itself not really an objective fact.
2. There are objective moral values and duties.
Well, I believe there are, but this statement is not a fact, it is a statement of belief. It cannot be proven in the same way a mathematical theorem can.
3. Therefore, God exists.
Anybody convinced by this argument knows nothing of logic. Both of the premises are statements of opinion, not fact. Only someone who already believes them will be convinced that the proposition is true.
To be clear, I agree, but it is a really poor argument to present to someone who doesn't.
Mormonism already is a form of atheism: it denies the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, first, most high God
_______________________________________
Yes the blood of their Mormon jesus is not able to save “to the uttermost”
Is that why they use water insteasd of wine/grape juice for their religious rituals ???
No substance, strength, power to their millions of Mormon gods ???
not even their Mommy, female gods ???
I do so wish he would not do that!
But since FACTs tend to show that more people are influenced by opinion than fact anyway; then percentage wise, it is a good argument.
The sad fact of the matter is that people who leave any religion are far more likely to become atheists, agnostics or liberals (but I repeat myself) than they are to convert to your favorite brand of Christianity.
That's why I've never been a fan of mindless religious debasing be the objects Catholic, Mormon or Protestant. People who believe in being subject to a higher power, however defined, are far less likely to follow the doctrines of Satan and his missionaries like Karl Marx.
IMO, the reason for water as a "sacrament" is financial. Just think how many pennies are saved in mormon coffers by doing away with the grape juice or wine in the millions of little cups every Sunday.
It will be NO surprise to us that the reason for water instead of juice is....wait for it...PERSECUTION OF MORMONS!.
As a precaution against enemies of the Church poisoning or adulterating the grape juice sold to the Saints,
____________________________________________
so the well couldnt be poisoned ???
or a rotting animal corpse tossed upstream into the creek ???
I once knew a woman who left the Mormon church with her Bishop husband when they discovered Mormonism was a fraud..
While in the process of getting divorced, she became very promiscuous because she thought that if Mormonism was false, so were all other churches and thus, there aren’t any moral sins..she even stated that her husband was screwing her best friend and she was fine with that.
I then talked to a former Mormon friend of mine and she confirmed that such situations were not all that uncommon.
Got that right.
I then talked to a former Mormon friend of mine and she confirmed that such situations were not all that uncommon.
That is a total smear against every woman who has left mormonism.
How would this "former mormon friend" have gathered this information? And you repeat it as "gospel"?
I did not say it was common, only that it was not all that uncommon.
A rational person would see such a statement as meaning that some who leave the Mormon church conclude there are no moral restraints and act accordingly.
Fortunately, most of those soon come to realize that just because Mormonism is false, not all religions are also false.
read
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.