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15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples [Vanity]
Colofornian | March 14, 2013 | Colofornian

Posted on 03/14/2013 10:44:57 AM PDT by Colofornian

Springtime seems to be the season when strange things happen – or controversial occurrences – happen in connection with temples within the church system of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons).

The chart at the end of this article highlights “15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples.”

Thirteen of those 15 “Facts” relate to the Lds church history of its temples, and strangely the overwhelming “dates” associated with these occur in mid to late March and the months of April or May.

Why?

Perhaps it goes back to the original “pact” Joseph Smith made. He received a Masonic degree on March 16, 1842. And by May of 1842, he injected elements of the Freemasonry ceremony into the Lds temple rituals.

Temple Occultic Occurrences, Manifestations & Hauntings:

Even six years prior, on March 27, 1836 in Kirtland, Ohio – the location of the first Lds temple (and one abandoned by the Mormons prior to Smith implementing Baptisms for the dead)... strange visions were going on:

Temple dedications were often the scenes of such mysterious occurrences. Joseph Smith wrote of "many strange visions" that were seen when the first temple was dedicated at Kirkland, Ohio on 27 March 1836. It was noted that men would run about "under the influence," while others would "speak in a muttering, unnatural voice and their bodies [would] be distorted...." (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 1 April 1842, page 747) Smith wrote: "Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 213-214)

What kinds of "ridiculous things?"

The records of early Mormonism are replete with accounts of activity from the spirit world. According to John Whitmer, who was the official Church Historian in Joseph Smith's time, some converts to the new religion would "act like an Indian in the act of scalping," or would "slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent...." During the ordination ceremony of Harvey Whitlock as a high priest in 1831, he was seen to have "turned as black as Lyman was white," his fingers "were set like claws," and, unable to speak, he went about the room with eyes "as the shape of oval Os...." On another occasion, one man, who weighed over 200 pounds, was thrown through the air by an unseen force, and another "began screaming like a panther...." 46. John Whitmer, John Whitmer's History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Modern Microfilm Company, n.d.), Chapter Six.

Haunting also took place in the Manti, Utah temple in April 1877 and the Salt Lake City temple the Spring of 1893.

Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff claimed:

* "I have had many interviews with Brother Joseph until the last 15 or 20 years of my life; I have not see him for that length of time." Journal of Discourses, 21:317-318, October 10, 1880, cf. Journal of Discourses, 19:229

* And that The Declaration of Independence signers appeared to him in the St. George, Utah temple in the 1870s (see chart below).

* Similarly, Lds "apostle" Heber C. Kimball (one who manifested signs of demon possession as a Mormon missionary in the United Kingdom in 1837) said "Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped." -- Lds "apostle" Heber C. Kimball, Deseret Weekly News, 53:112, Temples of the Most High, 1896, p. 345

LDS Temple Ritual Changes

Even though EVERY small detail of a Mormon temple ritual is highlighted as being of great import, the Lds Church have made SEVERAL official changes to their temple rites (See Temple Ritual Changed...Again). What is significantly strange about that is that one official Lds church publication, Church Handbook of Instructions: Book 2 Priesthood and Auxiliary Leaders (1998) highlights how important those details are: The publication cites Lds “apostle” James Talmage that:No jot, iota, or tittle of the temple rites is otherwise than uplifting and sanctifying. In EVERY DETAIL the endowment ceremony contributes to...” (and Talmage goes on to tout several aspects of that). [The original Talmage source cited is The House of the Lord, p. 84 of the 1976 edition, as cited by The Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, p. 261.]

The Lds church made significant changes in – yes, you guessed it – APRIL (1990):

“In 1982 The God Makers film reenacted some of the most occult elements in the [Lds temple] endowment. The later film, The Temple of the God Makers, went even deeper. Telling many of the scenes shown are the very ones now inexplicably missage. The changes include the elimination of the following: 1. The chanting of the words pay lay ale, which temple patrons were told came from the ancient 'Adamic language' and meant 'O God, hear the words of my mouth.' 2. A portion of the ceremony in which a Protestant preacher is portrayed as a hireling of Lucifer. He is paid to preach the gospel of salvation by the grace and omnipresence and omnipotence of God the Father to 'Adam and his prosperity.' 3. The penalty signs which portray the temple patron having their throat slit, their heart ripped out, or their belly torn open for revealing the secrets of the temple rite. 4. Women in the temple having to veil their faces in prayer. 5. Women in the temple swearing a covenant to obey their husbands as God. 6. The Masonic 'five points of fellowship' and the embrace with 'the Lord' through the veil in order to gain admittance to the Celestial Room and the presence of Heavenly Father. 7. The use of female veil workers at the veil, representing mother goddesses, to embrace the women temple patrons and bring them through to the Celestial Room.” (Ed Decker, Decker's Complete Handbook of Mormonism, p. 396, Harvest House, 1995).

The Lds Church Handbook of Instructions boast about special occultic knowledge gained in the secretive Lds temples: “...members receive important knowledge of 'things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world. (D&C 124:41)” The Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 2, p. 261. [For more on occultic features re: the Mormon temple, see #8 in the chart below]

Necro-baptizing

By far, most of the work done in the Lds temples comprises baptizing the dead – and sealings of marriages can be done for the dead as well. Controversy has repeatedly erupted since the Mormon Church's April 1995 agreement with Jews to stop baptizing Jews killed in the Holocaust. Anne Frank and other Jews, along with many historical figures, have been necro-baptized by the Church.

The end portion of the chart below covers controversial aspects of these necro-baptisms. One still yet to be controversial feature of Mormon theology is how it presents Mormons themselves as literal “saviors” – in competition with Jesus Christ Himself!

For more on that, See Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)Surprisingly NONE of the Mormon temple activity originates from the Book of Mormon. The Lds temple itself wasn't used for “necro” purposes until the 1840s. The first two Lds temples (Kirtland, Ohio and Nauvoo, IL) were abandoned by the Mormons.

15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples

DATE & PLACE LDS TEMPLE FACTOID SOURCE LINKS
1. OVERARCHING INTRO What's involved with LDS temple rituals? The Secret LDS Temple Ceremony [Mormonism/Anti-Christian]
HISTORY OF LDS TEMPLE FACTS
2. May, 1842: Nauvoo, IL Masonic influences in temple ceremony after Joseph Smith rec'd a Mason's degree March 16, 1842 Masonic Influence in the Endowment Ceremony + Masonry/Temple + MASONRY & THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10) + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples
Temple Occultic Occurrences, Manifestations & Hauntings:
3. March 27, 1836 Kirtland, Ohio Temple Lds abandoned in the 1830s Strange visions Temple dedications were often the scenes of such mysterious occurrences. Joseph Smith wrote of "many strange visions" that were seen when the first temple was dedicated at Kirkland, Ohio on 27 March 1836. It was noted that men would run about "under the influence," while others would "speak in a muttering, unnatural voice and their bodies [would] be distorted...." (Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 1 April 1842, page 747) Smith wrote: "Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 213-214) What kinds of "ridiculous things?" The records of early Mormonism are replete with accounts of activity from the spirit world. According to John Whitmer, who was the official Church Historian in Joseph Smith's time, some converts to the new religion would "act like an Indian in the act of scalping," or would "slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent...." During the ordination ceremony of Harvey Whitlock as a high priest in 1831, he was seen to have "turned as black as Lyman was white," his fingers "were set like claws," and, unable to speak, he went about the room with eyes "as the shape of oval Os...." On another occasion, one man, who weighed over 200 pounds, was thrown through the air by an unseen force, and another "began screaming like a panther...." 46. John Whitmer, John Whitmer's History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Modern Microfilm Company, n.d.), Chapter Six. GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism + GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism (original source)
4. 1870s St. George, Utah Temple The dead Founding Fathers appeared in the temple? Supposedly the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence -- with George Washington -- appeared to Lds would-be “prophet” Wilford Woodruff. Is the temple haunted? Were these indeed ghosts of the signers? Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts? Or was the one even contemporary Mormons appeal to as the "authoritative" voice of God on polygamy vs. monogamy perhaps given to wild religious fantasies? Furthermore, does the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints play down this occultic episode as being just a small event in the life of Woodruff? Or are the sources questionable? The answer to these last two questions is: Not at all.In fact anybody can go to Lds.org and find Lesson 39 of the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, where they would see a lesson plan that actually plays it up and highlights Woodruff's claims...giving credence that  contemporary Mormons buy into it! – (see The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers) Within the lesson plan detailing the account, Mormon church curricula writers then have their teachers ask the question: What can we learn from these two stories? (Answers could include that those who are dead are anxious for us to perform ordinances for them and that we should be diligent in our efforts to redeem the dead.) So official Mormon church teachings actually present the account of such occultic ghostly/potentially demonic encounters as anecdotal evidence of baptizing dead spirits! Furthermore, BYU  also includes the account as part of their curricula for incoming freshmen who have taken their "Religious Education Intro to LDS Family History (Genealogy)" course. (See next column for secondary source, which provides primary sources) Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
5. April 1877 Manti, Utah Temple Mormon writer Joseph Heinerman described such things as personages of light, auras of light around some of the speakers, strange music, and other manifestations during the dedication of the Mormon temple in Manti, Utah. (See link next column + Greg Loren Durand 1995-2005 Crown Rights Book Company, citing Joseph Heinerman, Spirit World Manifestations: Accounts of Divine Aid in Genealogical and Temple Work and Other Assistance to Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City, Utah: Joseph Lyon and Associates, 1986), pages 94-97. (If one says "Well, that was 133 years ago" note that these anecdotal ghost stories are ones BYU professors feel are worth including in their class student syllabus, in the 1960s, or 1970: Charles R. Woodbury noted during one of the "fast food" baptisms for the dead that Mormons were doing in Manti that day (300 of them), he noted the following: ...let us review a journal entry written by Charles R. Woodbury after he had “witnessed 300 baptisms one day” in the Manti Temple: As a name was called out for baptism, a voice said to me, “This person has had the Gospel taught them and is converted and is ready for baptism.” Another name would be called out, “This person’s never heard the Gospel yet.” Another name would be called, “This person’s heard the Gospel and is not converted.” I sat there in that condition and witnessed 300 baptisms. I knew everyone of them that had accepted it and those that didn’t…25 out of the 300 weren’t ready for it. They weren’t converted and ready for the work. The rest of them, the other 275 were prepared and rejoiced that their work was being done. This is the testimony that I have to show people that the departed spirits know and appreciate when their work is done in the Temple, so they can enjoy the blessings of the Gospel (Woodbury, 1970, p. 19). (For source, see second link in next column) GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism + Religious Education C261 Intro to LDS Family History (Genealogy) p. 57
6. Spring 1893 Salt Lake City Temple opening

Mormons claim that when they opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders." (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 1020

Official Lds church source: Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996
7. Open House start date April 3, 1993 San Diego, CA Temple Visitations by the dead: Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple, local Mormon families were given a packet entitled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead They see dead people?
OTHER TEMPLE OCCULTIC COMPONENTS
8. Other Occultic Elements Temple oaths, secrets, secret tokens/passwords to heaven revealed + 'Is Lucifer the god of the Mormon temple?' In the temple ceremony up through April 1990, why did the Lds temple ritual have Lucifer answer prayers in the temple? (In a presentation of Adam praying 'Oh God hear the words of my mouth' three times Lucifer answers and promises to answer for the father Adam was praying unto) Mitt Romney's Mormon Secrets [Temple oaths, secrets, secret tokens/passwords to heaven revealed] + Is Lucifer the god of the Mormon Temple? [The OTHER World Series]
9. 1927 Salt Lake City, UT Lds temple ceremony ritualistic changes ( Why change something 'direct from Mormon god?') included removing an oath of vengeance against the United States – an oath they were swearing to retain up thru the 3rd and 4th generations...meaning we are STILL in that time period of 3-4 generations removed from the mid-1920s Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the need for secret death oaths in the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony? [Secretive Mormon church] + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)
10. April 1990 Salt Lake City, UT More Lds temple ceremony ritualistic changes (Again, why change something 'direct from Mormon god?'): “In 1982 The God Makers film reenacted some of the most occult elements in the [Lds temple] endowment. The later film, The Temple of the God Makers, went even deeper. Telling many of the scenes shown are the very ones now inexplicably missage. The changes include the elimination of the following: 1. The chanting of the words pay lay ale, which temple patrons were told came from the ancient 'Adamic language' and meant 'O God, hear the words of my mouth.' 2. A portion of the ceremony in which a Protestant preacher is portrayed as a hireling of Lucifer. He is paid to preach the gospel of salvation by the grace and omnipresence and omnipotence of God the Father to 'Adam and his prosperity.' 3. The penalty signs which portray the temple patron having their throat slit, their heart ripped out, or their belly torn open for revealing the secrets of the temple rite. 4. Women in the temple having to veil their faces in prayer. 5. Women in the temple swearing a covenant to obey their husbands as God. 6. The Masonic 'five points of fellowship' and the embrace with 'the Lord' through the veil in order to gain admittance to the Celestial Room and the presence of Heavenly Father. 7. The use of female veil workers at the veil, representing mother goddesses, to embrace the women temple patrons and bring them through to the Celestial Room.” (Ed Decker, Decker's Complete Handbook of Mormonism, p. 396, Harvest House) Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the temple ceremony was changed in 1990 - LDS-Mormon + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)
NECRO BAPTISMS
11. April, 1995 Lds Church covenants with Jews to stop Lds baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims – a covenant not kept A Chronicle of the Mormon/Jewish Controversy: The Issue of The Mormon Baptisms of Jewish Holocaust Victims and Other Jewish Dead+ Anne Frank, a Mormon? +
* Anne Frank has been posthumously baptized (Mormon) + Elie Wiesel calls for Romney’s help to end Mormons’ proxy baptisms of Jews
12. Various Lds Temples Who Knew They were 'Mormons'? A Look @ Controversial 'Who's Who' among the dead who the Mormons have 'baptized' LDS Struggle to Keep Proxy Baptisms Appropriate + Here Are 10 Famous People Posthumously Baptized By Mormons [Business Insider] + Baptism for the Dead - People
13. March 15, 2000: Jordan River Temple, South Jordan, UT Lds temple seals deceased Roman Catholic priest to nun (Lds' controversial practice of 'sealing' the dead in marriage) Mormons even marry the dead by proxy (Vanity: The OTHER World Series) + Newest Catholic saint baptized and 'sealed' to wife in LDS temple? + Hemings and Jefferson Together Forever? Troubling cases of Mormon “proxy sealing” + What is an LDS Church /Mormon temple marriage/sealing?
14. All Lds Temples Mormon theological claim that Mormons themselves are literal saviors of the dead Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)
THEOLOGICAL WRAP-UP
15. Is all this 'temple' stuff revealed in the Book of Mormon? Does the BoM "enlighten" us about baptism for the dead or any temple rite or work? (No) Then what "lens" does it offer us? What about physical temples at all? (No) It doesn't tell us about ANY rituals done, nor does it offer us "additional" views about God or "the Mormon gods"...nor anything about the Aaronic priesthood, let alone anything "new"... nor does it tell us anything about baptism for the dead, let alone anything "new" about it...nor does the BoM tell us how to become a god, let alone anything "new" about it... nor does it tell us how to eternally progress unto godhood, let alone anything "new" about it...


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: getalife; inman; lds; mormonbashing; mormonism; occult; temples
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From the article: Springtime seems to be the season when strange things happen – or controversial occurrences – happen in connection with temples within the church system of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons). The chart at the end of this article highlights “15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples.” Thirteen of those 15 “Facts” relate to the Lds church history of its temples, and strangely the overwhelming “dates” associated with these occur in mid to late March and the months of April or May. Why?
1 posted on 03/14/2013 10:44:57 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Good information


2 posted on 03/14/2013 10:48:18 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

IBHCFC

In before the hateful comments from cultists...


3 posted on 03/14/2013 10:53:07 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Colofornian

Nice work


4 posted on 03/14/2013 10:54:42 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Count down..............1-2-3-
I’ll take post ten.


5 posted on 03/14/2013 10:56:17 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

Has any Mormon ever be able to refute anything you have posted?


6 posted on 03/14/2013 10:59:32 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

“Has any Mormon ever be able to refute anything you have posted?”

It is so much easier to call Colofornian names, accuse him of hate, claim he lies, etc.

Plus, they’d have to actually find some facts, evidence or logic, if they were to try to refute postings form their own sources.

Still, they believe. Mormonism is not about facts. It is about feelings. Sincerely held feelings that are based on a falsehood.


7 posted on 03/14/2013 11:01:47 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: Colofornian

“Masonic influences in temple ceremony after Joseph Smith rec’d a Mason’s degree March 16, 1842”

My understanding is he was a clandestinely made mason, not a mason from a recognized lodge. But frankly, if Christian churches in general were more like lodge, they’d be a lot better off.


8 posted on 03/14/2013 11:02:42 AM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: Colofornian

As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours...the only Mormons I have ever known were kind, generous people with admirable values who spent more time in church than most of the rest of us spend in bars...what axe do you have to grind here? Is this the California mindset you brought to Colorado? No wonder the Golden State abhors such immigrants.


9 posted on 03/14/2013 11:07:06 AM PDT by dunblak
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To: svcw

I just received a book “The American Muhammad” written by Alvin J. Schmidt, professor emeritus at Illinois College, Jacksonville, IL, which outlines 70 parallels between the founder and “prophet” of Islam, Muhammad, and Joseph Smith, the founder and “prophet” of Mormonism. Joseph Smith, on at least one occasion, referred to himself as the “American Mohamet.” The book is available from Concordia Publishing House in St. Louis.


10 posted on 03/14/2013 11:07:39 AM PDT by T Baden (Tenth Amendment Texan)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
Joshua Graham doesn't need to refute anyone! Lol!

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Joshua_Graham


11 posted on 03/14/2013 11:08:17 AM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: DonaldC
” Amen Brother”
12 posted on 03/14/2013 11:12:07 AM PDT by BooBoo1000 (Some times I wake up grumpy,,, other times I just let her sleep.)
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To: T Baden

Yep,
“I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’
1838


13 posted on 03/14/2013 11:14:19 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: dunblak

As a “Christian” then you should know that we are to call out false prophets and teachings.
mormonism isn’t just a different way of worshiping, it is at its very foundation anti-Christian.

“If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 345, February 18, 1855

“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,” ( Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670)

“Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers’ sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255


14 posted on 03/14/2013 11:30:05 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: dunblak

***As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours****

It was not a Christian who walked out of the woods in 1820 and claimed to have seen angel and apostles and Jesus, and said we better fall in line to HIS teachings because all churches were wrong and his was right and if we didn’t HE would stand in the doorway to Heaven and keep the non mormons out!

HE threw down the gauntlet, Christians picked it up and ever since then Mormons have been crying that the Christians are mean to them even though it was Mormons who picked this fight!

Whew!


15 posted on 03/14/2013 11:37:34 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (CLICK my name. See the murals before they are painted over! POTEET THEATER in OKC!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Define “refute”

I mean that how they work, they redefine everything...

Often on the fly...


16 posted on 03/14/2013 11:40:37 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: dunblak

ooooh...you dun it now


17 posted on 03/14/2013 11:43:00 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: ejonesie22

Prove what he posts is wrong, incorrect, or false.


18 posted on 03/14/2013 11:45:39 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: dunblak
As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours...

As a non-Christian non-Mormon (non-anything), I think these posts are fantastic. Mormonism is barely one step above Scientology on the stupid scale.

Any refutation of a religion with fact and reason (with some "Oh my! How can that be REAL?!") thrown in is fine by me.

On FR, we get to see take-downs of Mormonism, Scientology, Catholicism (rarely) and Islam. Keep it up!
19 posted on 03/14/2013 11:45:55 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
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To: dunblak
As a Christian and a non-Mormon

Indignation is a standard argument in the mormon defender's argument toolbox. Often it is the first thing they pull out when challenged.

I have known MANY mormons who don't fit your description "kind, generous people with admirable values". Taken as a group they are no more "admirable" than any other group...just more hypocritical about hiding their faults. And their generosity is nearly always toward their sect and to other mormons. Example, the multi-millions in tithing given by Romney to his church.

20 posted on 03/14/2013 11:46:38 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

“many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into...”

This sounds a bit like datura intoxication.


21 posted on 03/14/2013 11:49:37 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: dunblak
As a Christian you should understand the difference between denigrating a person and defending a faith.

Mormonism corrupts the message and very nature of your Savior to the entire world. The LDS maybe the only exposure some initially get to Christ and the strange beliefs that are heretical could turn them away or worse take them into a world away from the Father. They also lie and distort many parts of Christian beliefs, your beliefs, beliefs you were called to defend..

As a Christian you know that “being good” is not the point.

Is it Christian to let good people waltz into the arms of Satan himself?

I would think that would truly be the most denigrating and evil, hateful thing a person to do personally to another. Pointing out the very false teachings and other heresies of Mormonism is the precise opposite of such actions...

I understand in this delicate age many do not have the stomach for spiritual warfare, it is a sign of the times and where we are as a society. But if one cannot join the fight, at least do not stand in the way while others take on the evils of this world, regardless of their nature.

22 posted on 03/14/2013 11:51:20 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

No


23 posted on 03/14/2013 11:51:36 AM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
On a level playing ground, (i.e. reality) they never have.

Of course they don't play like that. They move goal post, wrap up things is long drawn out rhetoric then whine when caught that everyone is just a mean bigot.

its a quaint game, but can be fun to watch...

24 posted on 03/14/2013 11:54:00 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: dunblak
I certainly have had my disputes with Mormons here on FR but I too see no reason to belittle them....and like you, most Mormons I know are good people, with values.

lets stop being the constant haters....we can't hate everyone...

25 posted on 03/14/2013 12:01:55 PM PDT by cherry
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To: cherry
"lets stop being the constant haters....we can't hate everyone..."


You call shining the light on the mormon, cultic heresy "hate". Frankly, calling something hate is the first refuge of liberals and the LGBT community.

Thankfully, the APOSTLE PAUL, had no problems calling a heresy a heresy...

"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:11-13

Nor did he care if others approved of his actions...

"On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed--God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else. 1Th 2:4-6c

"Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Gal 1:10

Further, you have miscast exposing the teachings of mormonism with individual mormons. I suggest you go back to post 1 on this thread and reread. You will see you have made an error.

26 posted on 03/14/2013 12:10:24 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; dunblak; All
***As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours**** [Dunblak]

It was not a Christian who walked out of the woods in 1820 and claimed to have seen angel and apostles and Jesus, and said we better fall in line to HIS teachings because all churches were wrong and his was right and if we didn’t HE would stand in the doorway to Heaven and keep the non mormons out! HE threw down the gauntlet, Christians picked it up and ever since then Mormons have been crying that the Christians are mean to them even though it was Mormons who picked this fight! [Ruy Dias de Bivar]

#1: R.D. de Bivar is right...Lds picked the fight & labeled us ALL "apostates" ... said ALL of our creeds were an "abomination" before the Mormon gods ... and that ALL of our professing believers were "corrupt"...and then a LATER generation enshrined that as "scripture" & placed it in the Lds "Pearl of Great Price" under Joseph Smith - History (see vv. 18-21)

Tell me something? Are you creeds so wimpy they aren't worth defending when a group spends $million castigating on paper, on electronic websites, in media, in publications, in curricula, in made-up "scriptures," in missionary training???

#2 Jesus at one point said to the legalists of that hour: Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Are you going to castigate Jesus as well with your "I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours" line???

#3 The Lds church owns the Deseret News. This week they published a "15 facts you may want to know about Lds temples" piece. If that church can run a PR fluff about "facts"...it can stand the other side of its temples to be exposed.

I don't know about your Bible, but mine says: "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." (Apostle Paul, Ephesians 5:11)

The real Q is: Why have YOU as a professing Christian been hiding your light in exposing darkness?

(Or is it that when you get to heaven, you'll lecture me, Paul & Jesus in one fell swoop?)

29 posted on 03/14/2013 12:18:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: teppe

“Yes, I am LDS and I guarantee that any information you get from Colofornian is the same objectivity that you’ll get about Jews from the Muslim Brotherhood.”

Nice of you to (apparenlty) confess that you believe Jews are liars. I disagree. Don’t let that stop you from posting any, any, any objective info here to back up your claims.

“Colofornian and her ilk of self-appointed Non-Denomination Inquisitors excell at smears, inuendo, and distortion.”

That is a sentence packed with ad hominem attack. It is not an actual logic or fact based counterpoint - of which I haven’t see you post yet. This is a personal attack that is not allowed on the Religion Forum, as you should know.

“I have been to various LDS temples many times through my life and it is a peaceful activity devoted to our ancestors in conformance with 1st Corinthians 15:29”

There are no Christian Temples. Christians are the Temple of God. Nor are temples mentioned in the passage you quote. Nor do you understand the passage you quoted if you believe the Bible teaches Christians to pretend to be baptized for the dead.

The fact that you are a biased participant might lead some to believe that you can’t be an objective source of information. Remember your (apparent) slander of Jews in your post? I suggest you post some factual links and let’s have a real discussion.

“It is also a place where you can go and leave the outside world behind to feel the Holy Ghost and the Love of God.”

What is felt there is the lobby of a Marriott. It is made up out of whole cloth. In God’s Temple in the Hebrew Scriptures, He specified in detail how His Temple should look. Mormon temples aren’t in any of the mormonic scriptures. This explains why Marriott had to step in and help.


30 posted on 03/14/2013 12:23:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: teppe

Prove it.


31 posted on 03/14/2013 12:25:01 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: greyfoxx39

“The Romneys have also given annually to their family charity, the Tyler Charitable Foundation, which, in turn, has paid out large sums to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, Sabin Children’s Foundation, National Multiple Sclerosis Society and to Mitt Romney’s alma mater, Brigham Young University.”

Most of my “charitable contributions” are also directly to my church, and mostly pay the salary of my pastor, and the cost of the building we use. A portion of the money the church collects goes to missionaries, which also is a solely church-related function. A small part goes to the deacon’s fund, which does traditional charity work, but mostly for people in the church.

I don’t know whether any other people fall into this category. But I would suspect that a large amount of the donations by Catholics who are freepers go to their church as well.

So I’m not sure how much of an “attack” it is to hit someone because their giving is mostly to their church.

The hit goes back to whether the church is a valid one, and whether the church does true charity with the money. But both of those discussions have nothing to do with the members of the church giving money to the church (I’m not arguing that donations to the mormon church are more or less charitably used here).

I’m certain Romney gave more money away to secular or non-sectarian charity than I did. I know, he has more money.


32 posted on 03/14/2013 12:26:14 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: cherry; dunblak; All
I certainly have had my disputes with Mormons here on FR but I too see no reason to belittle them....and like you, most Mormons I know are good people, with values. lets stop being the constant haters....we can't hate everyone...

Let's apply this argument to the homosexual activist agenda:

I certainly have had my disputes with homosexual activists here on FR but I too see no reason to belittle their claims....lets stop being the constant haters....we can't hate everyone...

You know ... despite claims to the contrary of your secular high school & college profs of "tolerance," disagreement does not = "hate" ...

My relatives are Lds; I am a descendent of a polygamist Mormon.

Some times we need to start loving people with the truth:

"Love rejoices in the truth." (1 Corinthians 13:6)

33 posted on 03/14/2013 12:29:29 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: CharlesWayneCT
LOL, thanks Charles for proving my comment..."Indignation is a standard argument in the mormon defender's argument toolbox. Often it is the first thing they pull out when challenged."

As I stated, "And their generosity is nearly always toward their sect and to other mormons."

Now, unless you were, as I was, born into mormonism, lived for several years in communities heavily populated and controlled by mormons, you won't have seen first-hand that what I stated is true.

So, save your indignation and support for Mitt for the next time he begins his campaign for POTUS.

34 posted on 03/14/2013 12:38:53 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

This is important work, Colofornian. Thanks for posting. What we believe matters!


35 posted on 03/14/2013 12:39:01 PM PDT by bethelgrad
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To: bethelgrad; Colofornian

Amen!


36 posted on 03/14/2013 12:44:59 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Thanks Mitt.)
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To: teppe; All
I have been to various LDS temples many times through my life and it is a peaceful activity devoted to our ancestors...

Well, the graveyard can be a "peaceful" place too...til at night when the Mormon goblins arrive:

Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff told followers in 1887, "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George (Journal of Discourses 19:229). Woodruff is referring to the St. George temple in southern Utah. He also stated, “I will here say that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.160). In his book titled Temple Manifestations, Mormon writer Joseph Heinerman lists several accounts of dead spirits visiting patrons in LDS temples. However, such encounters are never condoned by the Bible and as such, should be shunned rather than encouraged.They see dead people?

Would you like to tell us Tep why the same "prophet" you have trusted in to begin placing the breaks on polygamy tells you that "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George [temple]"???

Would you like to tell us Teppe why the Lds official church publications & BYU curricula have highlighted these so-called "dead people" coming after & seeking after the living???

The "official" BYU & Lds church accounts are right here...a few clicks away for ANY poster to visit:

Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]

Step 1: Click on this above link
Steps 2 & 3: Click on the Accounts #1 & #4 at the previous link...the BYU source is at "Account 1"...the official Lds church curricula link is at "Account 4"

ALL: You need to ask yourself why Teppe would want to hide this info by slandering the person who is providing the link?

37 posted on 03/14/2013 12:47:14 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: bethelgrad; dunblak; cherry; greyfoxx39; teppe; All
This is important work, Colofornian. Thanks for posting. What we believe matters!

And this matters beyond kudos...and the work itself.

It matters...
...for Mormons to escapism not just the cultic worldviews of Mormonism...
...but the occultic cultural & ritualistic entrappings of the Mormon temple...
...and that matters for eternity!

It also matters when people engage in identity theft and begin to use your name, effecting EVERYTHING about you reputationally.

I'm sure people like Teppe, Dunblak, and Cherry wouldn't for a single moment tolerate people utilizing their name as a counterfeit identity theft operation.

That affects finances for what is to be used for ultimate value on this earth; that affects reputation -- in this case associating things as "Christian" that have nothing to do with Christianity such as overdosing on the dead, which is what Mormons do.

38 posted on 03/14/2013 12:54:13 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; teppe; Elsie; All
“I have been to various LDS temples many times through my life and it is a peaceful activity devoted to our ancestors in conformance with 1st Corinthians 15:29” [Teppe]

There are no Christian Temples. Christians are the Temple of God. Nor are temples mentioned in the passage you quote. Nor do you understand the passage you quoted if you believe the Bible teaches Christians to pretend to be baptized for the dead. [AMPU]

ALL: The Mormon church owns the Deseret Book Co. In 1977, it printed a book entitled: A Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints...why it wouldn't surprise me if Teppe referenced it as a young missionary lad on the mission field.

I look at the entry for "temple" found on pp. 451-452. Per this source, the Helaman and Alma references are to "unholy temples."

That leaves only three Book of Mormon books that references "temple"...2 Nephi 5:16, Jacob 1:17; 2:2; and 3 Nephi 11:1; 24:1...the last one is about the Lord coming to his temple...The first one is about a temple being built...3 Nephi 11:1 is about being around a temple...which leaves only the book of Jacob telling anybody what was done in a temple...Jacob 1:17 says teaching was going on there...and the word of God was declared in the temple in Jacob 2:2...

That is the full extent of Book of Mormon teachings on the temple!

If Mormonism is some "restoration" of what they were doing in BoM times, then where did all of this ritualism come from???

39 posted on 03/14/2013 1:03:58 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: cherry

What hate are you seeing?
Posting the words of mormonism, is hate?


40 posted on 03/14/2013 1:28:16 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: teppe

Finally you admit the words of the mormonism leaders are unreliable.
Please, provide what is posted directly from mormonism leader’s own words is incorrect.


41 posted on 03/14/2013 1:30:14 PM PDT by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: dunblak; Colofornian
denigrating people of faith

As a Christian, you should understand the dangers of the Mormon faith and be ready to profess the words of the Gospel and how they directly contradict the beliefs of the Mormon church.

Nice people aside, the church they are in is not a Christian church. Nothing Colofornian cited above is denigrating but simply information you may just disagree with.

Regards

42 posted on 03/14/2013 2:08:04 PM PDT by The Iceman Cometh (Proud Teabagging Barbarian Terrorist Hobbit Crazy Cracker Son-of-a-Bitch!)
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To: teppe

So teppe, how about FOR ONCE, post facts, evidence or logic that demonstrates a falsehood presented here.

I’ve yet to see you do it. Why not go for it?


43 posted on 03/14/2013 5:06:54 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international, gone independent. Gone.)
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To: dunblak

“As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours..”


As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see why you would be offended at the accurate exposure of a religion that actively teaches against Christ.

If the truth is not important to you, if a religion that denies Jesus Christ and thus damns men is not important to you, how can you claim to be a Christian?

Martin Luther has a response for you, Erasmus!

“In a word, these declarations of yours amount to this — that, with you, it matters not what is believed by any one, any where, if the peace of the world be but undisturbed; and if every one be but allowed, when his life, his reputation, or his interest is at stake, to do as he did, who said, “If they affirm, I affirm, if they deny, I deny:” and to look upon the Christian doctrines as nothing better than the opinions of philosophers and men: and that it is the greatest of folly to quarrel about, contend for, and assert them, as nothing can arise therefrom but contention, and the disturbance of the public peace: “that what is above us, does not concern us.” This, I say, is what your declarations amount to. — Thus, to put an end to our fightings, you come in as an intermediate peace-maker, that you may cause each side to suspend arms, and persuade us to cease from drawing swords about things so absurd and useless.

What I should cut at here, I believe, my friend Erasmus, you know very well. But, as I said before, I will not openly express myself. In the mean time, I excuse your very good intention of heart; but do you go no further; fear the Spirit of God, who searcheth the reins and the heart, and who is not deceived by artfully contrived expressions. I have, upon this occasion, expressed myself thus, that henceforth you may cease to accuse our cause of pertinacity or obstinacy. For, by so doing, you only evince that you hug in your heart a Lucian, or some other of the swinish tribe of the Epicureans; who, because he does not believe there is a God himself, secretly laughs at all those who do believe and confess it. Allow us to be assertors, and to study and delight in assertions: and do you favour your Sceptics and Academics until Christ shall have called you also. The Holy Spirit is not a Sceptic, nor are what he has written on our hearts doubts or opinions, but assertions more certain, and more firm, than life itself and all human experience.”
~ On the Bondage of the Will


44 posted on 03/14/2013 5:21:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: teppe

“Yes, I am LDS and I guarantee that any information you get from Colofornian is the same objectivity that you’ll get about Jews from the Muslim Brotherhood.”


Comparing Freepers to the Muslim Brotherhood... Nice.

“It is also a place where you can go and leave the outside world behind to feel the Holy Ghost and the Love of God.”


All I have to do is pray, and God the Holy Spirit who loves me is immediately attentive to my trouble anywhere, at any time.


45 posted on 03/14/2013 5:41:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: DonaldC
But frankly, if Christian churches in general were more like lodge, they’d be a lot better off.

In what way?

46 posted on 03/14/2013 6:18:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dunblak
As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours...

It appears that you are a very UNINFORMED christian...


 
Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?
 
Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 
 
 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



47 posted on 03/14/2013 6:20:12 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dunblak
As a Christian and a non-Mormon, I fail to see what your purpose is in denigrating people of faith whose mode of worship differs from yours...

There's been a LOT of that going around...



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

48 posted on 03/14/2013 6:21:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: T Baden

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




49 posted on 03/14/2013 6:21:53 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stuartcr
ooooh...you dun it now


THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.
 
 

Whatever HAPPENED to Emma???
 
Eliza was a devout Mormon.
 
At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma).
 
In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and
knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.
Wow!!
 
I guess ol' Emma got VAPORIZED by GOD!!!
 
We know that multiply him thing sure didn't work out!          
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

50 posted on 03/14/2013 6:23:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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