pretty much, i see religion like politics in that for those that believe, no explanation is necessary, and for those that don't, none will ever be good enough...
Posted on 04/28/2013 12:51:20 PM PDT by NYer
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Even with modern scientific technology, the Shroud of Turin continues to baffle researchers.
Barrie Schwortz was the documenting photographer for the Shroud of Turin research project in 1978, an in-depth examination of what many people believe to be the burial cloth of Jesus.
Raised in an Orthodox Jewish home, "it took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I'm a Jew and involved with probably the most important relic of Christianity," Schwortz told Catholic News Service.
"Isn't it funny how God always picks a Jew to be the messenger," he said.
Schwortz said that he, along with the other members of the research team who came from various faith backgrounds, had to set aside personal beliefs and focus on the shroud itself rather than any religious implication it might carry.
"We were there to gather information ... to do empirical science and do it to the best of our abilities," Schwortz said. "It doesn't have anything to do with my personal religious beliefs. It has to do with the truth."
The Shroud of Turin is a 14-foot linen that has a full-length photonegative image of a wounded man on the front and back of the cloth. The scientific team spent five days analyzing the chemical and physical properties of the shroud, paying special attention to the topographical information showing depth that was encoded in the light and dark shading of the cloth.
"Our team went to Turin to answer one simple question: How was the image formed?" Schwortz said. "Ultimately, we failed.
"We could tell you what it's not -- not a painting, not a photograph, not a scorch, not a rubbing -- but we know of no mechanism to this day that can make an image with the same chemical and physical properties as the image on the shroud."
Testing has been performed on the shroud since the initial analyses, and the results continue to be contested. In 1988 carbon testing dated the cloth to the 12th century, leading many to conclude that the shroud is a medieval forgery.
In a paper published in 2005, chemist Raymond Rogers, member of the 1978 research team, challenged the claim that the shroud is a fake. He said the sample used in the 1988 carbon testing was a piece used to mend the cloth in the Middle Ages and that the methodology of the testing was erroneous.
Even though the controversy over the origin of the cloth does not seem like it will be determined any time soon, Schwortz said the shroud can still be regarded as a bridge between science and faith.
"I think the implication of the shroud, for those particularly of the Christian faith, is that this is a document that precisely coincides with the Gospel account of what was done to the man Jesus," he said.
Schwortz said the public online technical database -- www.shroud.com -- that the team created should be used as a tool to learn more about the physical attributes of the shroud, but that individuals should draw their own conclusions about what it means for their faith.
"People often ask me, 'Does this prove the resurrection?'" Schwortz said. "The shroud did not come with a book of instructions. So the answer to faith isn't going to be on that piece of cloth, but more likely in the eyes and the hearts of those who look upon it."
How about you use the vast resources of the internet first.
“And did He gather all the bits up upon resurrection... we don’t have enough evidence to say no or yes. It seems the Shroud is rather clean, not gummed up with stuff, though some could be explained by bacterial consumption.”
The Shroud is in NO WAY clean. The Shroud has PLENTY of blood all over it that Christ left behind — and consider that He might have had a reason to have done so.
Now here’s a picky point... the Christ was not supposed to see corruption. Why isn’t this Red Cross fresh blood after all these years?
pretty much, i see religion like politics in that for those that believe, no explanation is necessary, and for those that don't, none will ever be good enough...
Typical.
I'm not the one referring to what is possibly a divinely inspired witness as "decorative decoration," yet you accuse me and then leave it to me to validate your accusation.
Everyone is entitlted to his own opinion, but not his own facts!
Interesting take. I can’t explain the shroud, It could be a fake or just a highly improbable coincident. I have no idea.
I have no idea if O. J. Simpson was at the scene of crime, but his shoes were.
I have no doubt he was a good Jewish boy. ;o)
One of the many explanations about the validity of the resurrection is the condition of the burial materials. The facecloth being folded and placed in a corner away from the rest helps prove some explanations that disprove the resurrection were NOT true such as:
1. Jesus had only "swooned" (fainted) and wasn't really dead but in the cool of the tomb, he revived and escaped. Only, he WAS dead as was verified by the Roman soldiers who were experts on crucifixion. Plus, Jesus would not have been able to unwrap himself from the cloths, much less eased out of them so well they retained their original shape, nor would he have taken the time to fold up the face cloth in his beaten-to-crap state, much less had the energy to roll back the stone guarding the entrance while slipping past the legion of soldiers tasked with ensuring no funny business happened to him.
2. Some wild animals ate him. (one of the funnier ones) Would wild animals have neatly unwrapped Jesus' body and folded the facecloth? Wouldn't the cave be covered with shredded cloth and body parts? Wouldn't the guards have heard something?
3. His disciples stole the body. Except they were just as shocked he really did rise from the dead as he said he would. They would have had to get past the guards assigned to prevent that exact thing from happening including rolling the heavy stone away from the entrance. They would not have taken the time to unwrap Jesus' body nor removed the face cloth, neatly folding it and placing it away from the rest. If they HAD stolen his body, they would have taken it as is.
There are other "explanations" attempting to disprove the resurrection and it's no surprise the creative ideas people have who are eager to do so. I think, greater than finding tangible evidence tying to Jesus' resurrection, the fact that practically EVERY single one of the Apostles were martyred for their faith in Jesus and his resurrection proving he was who he claimed to be, has to be the most convincing. Many people have died for what was a lie, but NOBODY dies for something they KNOW is a lie.
One could ask the same of the Doctrine of the Incarnation, yet all true Christians give assent to it.
I’m not saying that the Shroud proves the Resurrection; however, hundreds of scientists have looked at this and not been able to explain how the image got onto the Shroud.
Peter said, “always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect.”
(1 Peter 3:15)
The Bible is legit. It’s impossible to write something like that without devine intervention. Never in a million years, people are too stupid. Also something my brother pointed out, is if you look at the bridge of the nose on the shroud, there is a line going across the middle. That is where the nose bone is connected to the cartilage which usually rips when the nose is given a direct hit. Could just be a tear in the fabric, but it is strange it would be exactly there. A person could call it coincidence or spontaneity, but not likely. There is only so far somebody can stretch something like this. It is the real deal. This is the shroud of Jesus Christ which is why it was saved for so long. 2000 years is a long time but in the time of man it is yesterday, a blink of an eye. There are a million things older such as he Chauvet caves in France. 30,000 years ago humans painted the walls of those caves and they are still here today. Man is approx. 200,000 years old and we lived as animals until he sent his only begotten son to save us. I do not believe at all in these idiots who say man is only 5000 years old. Baloney. In every book there is BS and that is BS.
St. Augustine (354-430 AD) : “no one indeed believes anything unless he has first thought that it is to be believed...it is necessary that everything which is believed should be believed after thought has led the way.”
Thanks for the recommendation. : )
The dispute concerns the person whom the corpse used to make the imprints belonged to, and the age of the cloth. I don’t think anyone serious can postulate that the entire imagery is a handmade fake. When a corpse is used, 3D stereoscopic features are bound to be preserved. No magic here.
WiKi has a great amount of detail in its article on it, with cited references:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin
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I think I understand your point, however are you suggesting that a mock crucifixion was preformed in (say) the 1200’s, for yet unknown reasons, which produced this artifact? The Shroud also includes pollen spores from the area around Israel and dates back to around the period of the original crucifixion.
I may have entirely misunderstood your point, if so my apologies in advance.
No problem.
From the same link:
“Skeptics have argued that the flower images are too faint for Danin’s determination to be definite, that an independent review of the pollen strands showed that one strand out of the 26 provided contained significantly more pollen than the others, perhaps pointing to deliberate contamination.[108] Skeptics also argue that Max Frei had previously been duped in his examination of the Hitler Diaries and that he may have also been duped in this case, or may have introduced the pollens himself.[109] J. Beaulieau has stated that Frei was a self-taught amateur palynologist, was not properly trained, and that his sample was too small.[110]”
Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Bretone, offers incense to the "holy blood" of the late pope John Paul II.
Where was it said that all the 'relic' fragments of the "True Cross" could form several dozen, if not hundreds, of life size crosses?
Relics are tools of propaganda and it would be foolish, nay, naive, to assume a forgery market didn't exist for the same.
I’m not a scientist, and cannot dispute your examples, so the conversation is not likely to develop beyond curiosity on my part.
How this investigation turns out, will ad to our knowledge on the mystery of human condition.
Final thoughts: Spinoza observed about the nature of God that there can be nothing external to the infinite. Although that statement is little on the mystical (panentheism) it is interesting to consider, that God is beyond, even our imagination.
Oh, I see. Your nothing more than a common Catholic basher.
Well there it is, No interest on my side, good luck to you sir, I thought we were having a civilized conversation
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