Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

Catholic Online ^ | 5/24/2013 | Catholic Online

[DaveMSmith]

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.

"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."

[ansel12]

Read post 110, see if you can figure it out.

Your defense of atheism was misguided.

[stuartcr]

I’m not defending atheism.

You asked about an atheist society existing for any length of time, and I explained that I didn’t know of any.

Have there been any purely atheist societies? Let me know, and I will attempt to answer.

The second part of your 110 was a statement, wasn’t it?

[Elsie]

The format here in this forum makes it difficult enough to read the shorter posts. I wish they would upgrade it.

Huh?

HOW do you wish it 'upgraded'?

[Elsie]

... a punishing, angry and vengeful God who sacrificed His own son for the sin of Adam was shoved down their throats as children.

And He is STILL in control!

No matter WHAT the Boy Scouts have voted!!

[Elsie]

“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”

Sigh...

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John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

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1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

[Elsie]

The Pope cannot ignore that atheism is rising in the world.

DUH!

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Luke 18:8b (NIV)

When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

[ansel12]

I’m not defending atheism.

You posted post 76 in defense of atheism.

Total atheism is impossible for a reason.

[Elsie]

As soon as one adds something to faith in Christ, it isn’t faith in Christ.

Like THIS??

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What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 

 

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

[stuartcr]

Hey, if you think saying that I don’t see why atheists can’t do good things is defending atheism, ok. I don’t really care if it’s possible or not.

[piusv]

Are those who say atheists can’t do good things denying the fact that they do feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc?

I’m really not seeing how anyone can deny that.

Now is doing good more meaningful when we are doing it in response to our love for God? Absolutely.

[Cvengr]

I suspect Pope Francis has been considering recent Muslim violence in his promotion of first performing good, in order to find a meeting place to plant the seed.

It sounds reasonable to a believer as an act of grace.

I don’t believe it equally addresses how degenerate some may have become. A sinner who hasn’t heard the Gospel, but continues to think by worldly perspectives is discernible from a sinner who has also heard and considered the Gospel, rejected Him directly, and continues to degenerate.

The difference in grieving the Holy Spirit and Quenching the Holy Spirit is that God may have allowed the sinner to further degenerate and our attempts to intervene can place us between God and the discipline of our fellow man (not a good place to stand).

[stuartcr]

Beats me, I got no idea what that guy was talking about. I have no idea how to figure out if one person’s good doing is any better than any others. That guy probably does though, he seems pretty picky about stuff.

[Alex Murphy]

The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists. However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ....

...The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

But oh, that "Catholic Online" headline....

[Cvengr]

The way I have seen it best expressed, is that an unbeliever might perform a good work, but not good by Divine Standards. So when the Book of Works is opened up at the Great White Throne Judgment, those works not performed through faith in Christ, will fail to meet His criterion of righteousness, and His righteous Judgment will not accept them as evidence of righteousness.

Likewise, accepting the works performed as good independent of Christ, in order to find a common ground to plant the seed, can merely exacerbate future problems.

It can promote legalism, vice grace. A person’s mind is shaped by his thinking. As we solve problems independent of Christ, we scar our soul for future problem solving. If we continue to entrench our thinking upon what is right in our own eyes, we trend towards thinking independently of Him in the future. It becomes a stumbling stone to those not yet in faith with Him.

[Cvengr]

Good point.

When I use the term ‘faith alone in Christ alone’, it isn’t meant to deny good works, nor that we continue to grow through faith in Him.

Instead, it is intended to an audience who has never considered or exercised simple faith in Christ.

It is an attempt to communicate how one thinks when they are exercising faith in what He performed on the Cross.

A full life also enjoys work through faith in Him, our living God, in everything He provides, explicitly through faith alone in Christ alone.

[DaveMSmith]

The Pope is talking about doing good and rejecting evil - outreach. Repentance, Reformation and Regeneration. Path to salvation. This is directed by the Lord. It's Divinely inspired no matter if it's from your version of the Bible or not.

Problems? By following God's Will?

[daniel1212]

If your auto manual said you should change the oil in your car ever 7,000 miles “for ever and ever”, it would be interpreted to mean “until you no longer have the car”. A lot of the english translations of “forever” in the bible don’t really mean “for time neverending”. In fact, in some cases it was a short time indeed.

Very few i believe from what i have seen, and in the spirutual realm none that can be proved to be temporary. And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.

The latter are to be sent forth to the same place as the devil, if not suffering to the same degree:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. " (Matthew 25:46)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)

And it is certain that if the suffering is temporary, there is little deterrent effect in the Lord's warning that one should plucking out his eye if that caused you to sin, rather than going where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mk. 9:43-49)

[DaveMSmith]

LOL

Well, he did get the atheist's attention: Atheists Like What They See In Pope Francis' New Openness [HuffPo]

[cuban leaf]

And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.

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I completely agree.

And I understand the difference between “life” and “death”.

My old ‘63 rambler is not just dead. It is “eternally” dead. It ain’t comin’ back.

[Cvengr]

Was Saul performing good works or evil works on the body of believers, before he had his encounter on the Road to Damascus?