Skip to comments.Thoughts for Catholics impacted by the Boy Scouts of America membership policies
Posted on 05/26/2013 1:56:19 PM PDT by NYer
Two groups of Catholics are directly impacted by the decision of the Boy Scouts of America to formally admit as scouts youth who profess a same-sex orientation, namely, Catholic sponsoring organizations and Catholic scouts and their families. As always (See Disclaimer no. 1 to the right), I speak only for myself in what follows.
Part One, whether Catholic organizations may sponsor Boy Scouts.
Preliminary points. First, the Churchs absolute rejection of homosexual acts and her description of same-sex attraction as objectively disordered (CCC 2357) is not subject to question among Catholics. Second, the Church calls on persons who experience same-sex attraction to fulfill Gods will in their lives (CCC 2358) and to practice chastity (CCC 2359) which, for them as for all unmarried persons, connotes complete continence (CCC 2349-2350). Third, the Church warns society to avoid every sign of unjust discrimination against those who experience same-sex attraction (CCC 2358).
Now, the policy adopted by the Boy Scouts states in pertinent part: No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.
Immediate observations. First, the policy applies only to youth members (males aged 11 thru 17 and, I assume, single), not to adult leaders who, per the Supreme Court decision in Boy Scouts v. Dale (2000)a case that I think was decided correctlyare excluded based on a same-sex orientation. Second, on its face the policy applies only to membership in the Boy Scouts and not necessarily to participation in all Boy Scout activities; intentionally or not, this narrow phrasing seems to leave open some questions about how a membership policy might be applied to reasonable concerns over participation in certain activities. Third, nothing in the new policy or in Boy Scout literature endorses or advocates the gay life style; in fact all members are prohibited from using the Boy Scouts to promote any social or political position or agenda.
These three points being noted, the revised policy may be scrutinized from a Catholic point-of-view as follows.
(1) Granted that the non-discrimination principle outlined in CCC 2358 rings platitudinously (for unjust discrimination is never licit!), if the principle therein means anythingand I think it doesit means that the burden of proof lies on those who would discriminate against persons experiencing same-sex attraction to justify that discrimination.
Now in some respects discrimination (e.g., refusing to recognize “same-sex marriage” or prohibiting the admission of homosexuals to seminary) can and should be defended among Catholics. But, that same-sex attraction itself (which is the only factor addressed by the policy), should bar membership (which is the only application of the policy) in a secular organization seems difficult to argue; to propose further that maintaining such a bar is a litmus test for Catholic sponsorship of an organization seems even less tenable. Consider: same-sex attraction, standing alone, does not prohibit one from being a fully initiated Catholic. To argue, therefore, that, say, a Catholic parish must hold a sponsored organization to a higher membership standard than it holds itself to is at best anomalous.
(2) An official statement accompanying the new policy reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. Such a statement, oft repeated, seems wholly in-line with sound Catholic teaching against sexual activity outside of marriage and stands in welcome contrast to the indifference toward premarital sex shown by some other youth organizations let alone to some groups partnering with the likes of Planned Parenthood. Indeed, aside from youth programs expressly oriented toward chastity, I know of no other secular organization that so clearly declares all sexual conduct by its youth members to be contrary to its values as does the Boy Scouts.
In my opinion, these two points suffice to relieve Catholic organizations from concerns that their sponsorship of the Boy Scouts is, at least at present, incompatible with Church teaching on human sexuality.
Part Two, whether Catholic organizations or individuals may dissociate themselves from Boy Scouts without fear of giving bad example to others.
At one level, this one is easy: there is no obligation to sponsor or join Boy Scouts in the first place, so there is no objection to refraining from or cancelling sponsorship and/or membership in the Boy Scouts. But would such disassociation give a sign of unjust discrimination against homosexuals?
I think not.
My decade-long experience of Scouting (Eagle, 1975) was a healthy and entirely sex-free adventure. Part of the angst, even anger, that one sees in the wake of the recent Boy Scout decision is really, I suspect, distress over the fact that, now, the almost unique opportunity that the Boy Scouts offerednamely, space for boys to be boys (and not, as society increasingly treats them, as actual or prospective participants in sexually-tinged interactions)seems compromised.
Scouting requires serious commitments of time, talent, and treasure. If Catholic sponsoring organizations and/or member families cant conclude that the Boy Scouts are able (perhaps through no fault of their own) to deliver a youth program that actually operates within the parameters expressly (and I think defensibly) asserted by the Boy Scouts, then those Catholic organizations and families will likely decide that burdens of Boy Scout affiliation exceed the benefits.
But, unless and until that conclusion is demonstrated on the evidence (and not largely on predictions), and notwithstanding that some elements of the gay lobby are likely treating the Boy Scouts as pawns in their own wider projects, I think that Catholics may, and should, take the Boy Scouts at their word.
For now, at any rate.
Sorry, no sale. The BSA is dead.
I recall reading somewhere that this age bracket is the most vulnerable to experiment with sex and are the most vulnerable for ssa. Anyone else have more details on this?
I’d say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.
This is a real shame.
My son became an Eagle Scout this year. I’d hate to be in his shoes.
“But, that same-sex attraction itself (which is the only factor addressed by the policy), should bar membership (which is the only application of the policy) in a secular organization seems difficult to argue; to propose further that maintaining such a bar is a litmus test for Catholic sponsorship of an organization seems even less tenable. Consider: same-sex attraction, standing alone, does not prohibit one from being a fully initiated Catholic. To argue, therefore, that, say, a Catholic parish must hold a sponsored organization to a higher membership standard than it holds itself to is at best anomalous.”
This is where the error lies. The Church can and does often impose a requirement higher than simple Catholicity to participate in certain parish activities. For example. There is a requirement on the choir to have an in-tune singing voice - to be able to since along with the head of the choir. There’s the requirement for the priests himself that are well above the membership. For Catholic teachers - the Church doesn’t require that the students be Catholic - but it does require them to abide by the teachings of the Church, and requires that the teachers teach a curricula that is compatible with the Catholic church. A student who is openly gay is considered to be in defiance of this principle, and our school, as well as other schools, can ask them to leave.
The key point here - is ‘openly gay’. A boy scout who is openly gay and practicing, cannot be admitted to a Catholic Boy Scout group for the same reason that the Catholic school asks that the students, if not Catholic - respect the teachings of the Church. Why?
The responsibility is on the Catholic church to protect the students in their charge - many of whom are Catholic themselves, from scandal.
What happens if one of these gay boys do sodomize another, younger boy in the full view of the Catholic parish? Are we really going to get away with saying that the requirements of Catholicity permitted us to admit another child who was in open defiance to the teachings of the Catholic church? Does it absolve us of our fiduciary responsibility to all the children to protect them from abuse? No, no, it does not. We have the numbers and we have the facts. Letting openly gay boys in will result in the sodomizing of these boys. Knowing what we know now and then proceeding to put these children in harms way isn’t going to be a justification against wilfull negligence.
You mean some sinful Catholics have stopped following the rules of the church (the rules haven't changed)? Why phrase the question in such a vituperative manner? Perhaps you know of a church in which the membership does not sin?
So, boys who are attracted to other boys should participate in overnights with them?
Exactly how low an IQ must one have not to see the problem?
The new policy allows OPENLY GAY AND PROFESSING GAY boys into the scouts. They cannot be excluded.
It follows that scout leaders will not be allowed to “discriminate” against gay scouts—which means that they will not be permitted to tell ANY Boy Scouts that gay sex is wrong. And other Scouts will not be allowed to express their feelings about gay behavior, because that would be “bullying.”
In other words, the new policy requires everyone connected with scouting to express their approval of being gay.
So, this argument is demonstrably unsupportable. You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.
Invent a law or condition or problem that is REALLY self excplanatory left alone ... but .. noooooooo ...
Then, pick the damned thing apart and end up with a violation of what the condition of society was in the first place.
The sky is hereby green
No it's not .. just a shade of aqua
the sky is not green, but also not blue
Henceforth the sky is more greeen than blue ... thus ... the sky is green..
This is typical lawyer language. Or may I call it Bull Excrement.
The Church will soon find that legally the BSA can no longer deny leadership to adult active Homosexuals. The Law Suits are already being filed and the BSA will once again spend MILLLIONS of DOLLARS to defend their new membership rules, but this time they will lose, because you can not distinguish between an 18 year old by one day and a seventeen year old with one day till his 18th birthday.
It was always all or nothing with the Homo Lobby and they pushed over and over to allow for their degenerate lifestyle to be acceptable. They are relentless and when given an inch they take a mile.
First it was the idea that they where not mentally ill, just the opposite side of the same phychologicaly correct coin. Then it was the dropping of sodomy and laws against public immorality. Now it is the forcing of not acceptance, but praising of their degeneracy through marital status and monetary benefits. It will soon be the elimination of consent laws to allow them unfettered access to prey upon the teen age and pre teen youth of society.
I believe that this is a losing rear guard action (No pun intended) by the BSA. One they are destined to lose because they where moral cowards at the time it was most important for them to hold to their principals to be morally straight.
This Cannon Lawyer is wrong in his analysis.
You don’t breed homosexuals....you pursue youths and trap them...fill them with guilt and there’s no way out....and voila...chalk up another homo
Like Christ says, “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.”
Same with the Boy Scouts.
No Catholic will ever defend the indefensible. Most of the sex abuse that took place dates back to the 50's and earlier, long before JPII. I would ask you, however, what is being done in non-Catholic communities to stop predatory sex abuse of children? This is not limited to the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church here, through its bishops in the USCCB, have implemented a program to prevent future occurrences. This includes all members of the community who come in contact with children, from janitors in the schools to volunteers who teach children at the parish level. We all are subjected to fingerprinting and a police background check. We are also required to attend classes on how to identify sexual predators and what actions to take. This is possible because of the centralized nature of the Catholic Church. It is also the reason why the media have been able to focus a laser beam on us. This is not possible in the non-Catholic denominations where there is no one to take responsibility.
Worse still, is the sex abuse of children in the education system.
And then there are the camp counselors, Big Brothers of America and the list goes on and on. There is plenty of guilt to go around. Even BSA has sex abuse lawsuits pending.
Unfortunately, this is a very shallow analysis from someone professing to be a canon lawyer.
He fails to consider the consequences of allowing opnely homosexual boys in the scouts, namely:
a) courts ruling that the BSA cannot force members out when they turn 18, barring them from being leaders,
b) increased chance of homosexual members preying or recruiting younger boys,
c) scouts having to be taught that the homosexual lifestlye is acceptable and to be tolerated so that they don’t practice discrimination (and be open to lawsuits), etc.
I dont like the way he parses sexual orientation as somehow separable from a persons actions. . We cannot know whether a boy is homosexual unless he tell us by word or action that he is. The Church is is putting itself into an impossible position by linking it with the word discrimination. The Scouts have now made themselves an ally of the Homosexual lobby. The ban on adults will soon be overthrown because the camel has got its nose under the tent. My guess is that the Church is itself in much the same boat because we do have so many homosexual priests, so many we really wonder what to do about them.
“””Id say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.
You mean some sinful Catholics have stopped following the rules of the church (the rules haven’t changed)? Why phrase the question in such a vituperative manner? Perhaps you know of a church in which the membership does not sin? “”””””””
It is not the sinners I am referring to, it is the church itself. Do you see the church raising hell with all the liberal politicians that are pro abortion? I don’t. Do you see the church going postal about gay marriage? Not me.
There are practical reasons for excluding openly gay scouts. Scouting in practice is based on the “buddy system” where an often older scout is paired with a younger one. Are we going to pair up two kids, one of which is openly gay, with a younger child? Do you pair two gay boys together in the same tent? Anyone see the problems here?
>You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.<
You got it.
Also, you cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support, vote or be a member of the democrat party.
Edward Peters can stick this silliness where the sun don't shine
Also since when is having a healthy discrimination a bad thing.
T o discriminate is a requirement in the ability to make sound and reasonable choices. We all discriminate against certain activities and policies all the time. It is the essence of morality. The ability to discriminate between right and wrong.
I believe the Boy Scouts have been so untouchable for so long, they’ve never before, faced any real competition.
I think they will, now.
And as a former Scout myself, I say good.
BSA won’t uphold basic Judeo=Christian moral values anymore?
Best to move the kids, and donations, to other boys’ clubs that will
“Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.”
1 Cor. 15:33
The Boys Scouts just signed their death warrant as a viable organization. There is nowhere for it to go from here but down into a death spiral.
I am so old, I remember when everyone was supposed to be celibate till they were married, and few married before 17. Let’s accept that back then this was observed in the breach at older ages. Why are we talking about sexual orientation of 11 year olds?
Surrender, surrender, but don’t give yourself away.
I think we are talking about the sexual orientation of 15-17 year old boys and putting them in charge of younger kids whose gender they are sexually attracted to. It would be the same thing if the girl scouts allowed boys and put a 17 year old boy in charge of a bunch of 14-15 year old girls I suppose.
I disagree completely with this Edward Peters. I was thinking along the same lines as "Ransomed" in "post 30" - would Edward Peters advocate allowing girls to join the boy scouts, and let them participate in all their activities together with the boys (like camping together, etc.)?
Would he advocate allowing boys to join the girl scouts, and let them participate in all their activities together with the girls?
Would he advocate combining the boy scouts with the girls scouts, and permit them to do all activities together as one group, with no (zero) discrimination between them (such as separating boys bathrooms from girls bathrooms, or having separate sleeping facilities (tents/cabins) based on common-sense discriminating between the sexes)?
Those would obviously be foolish choices to make, and what this "canon lawyer" is advocating is equally foolish.
It is safe to say that President Hom-o-bama would agree completely with Peters advice.
I wish someone could get that message thru to the ones in Red England...
Yes, the BSA held out for awhile. Now they are just another sodomite-infected depraved organization. I will be sure not to support them in any way. They have just given new meaning to their motto “Be Prepared”
In the Catholic Faith, we'd call that a 'near occasion of sin', and they're to be avoided.
Legalistic arguments devoid from observations of what is actually going on on the ground. The fact is that starting January 1, 2014, homosexuals will be making the Scouts their territory, and I suspect filing multiple lawsuits immediately demanding “full inclusion.” Second, from a church’s perspective, it is not what may happen in individual troops, it is that the Scouts have endorsed behavior directly in opposition to the uniform teaching of the Bible and the Church. Third, by going along with this policy, you are enabling young men entering into the homosexual lifestyle, something that will have lifetime negative consequences for these young people that are just having their sexual identities formed. The psychological and physical harm caused by male homosexuality can be easily demonstrated, everything from higher rates of depression, suicide and mental illness to AIDS, meningitis and other sexually transmitted diseases.
As a close analogy, just because a lot of people are addicted to drugs does not mean the Scouts should not only not oppose addiction, but instead, say, oh it’s perfectly fine you’re addicted to meth and face a shortened lifespan and mental and physical health problems, we accept you and say that that behavior is not problem for the Scouts.
The latest count is that 9 councils have adopted the position of ignoring the adult ban. Those 9 councils are fully open to adult homosexuals. I am sure more will also adopt this position.
Yes, that's the bottom line, and anyone with an ounce of moral Christian fiber knows this to be true, not just Catholics.
Where has he been? The ones who clamored that gay youth be allowed to join the BSA have been very clear that such a policy will not be enough. They will not stop until gay leaders are permitted as well.
He also forgets that many gays do believe it is discrimination if their sexual activity as well as orientation is not affirmed, tolerance is never enough. So be prepared for the BSA being told that letting gay youth join must be accompanied by policies that make sure that homosexual behavior is treated as being equal to heterosexual behavior. Telling them that the BSA is not about sex will be met with angry protests. Everything is about affirming their sexual choice. Any objections to such behavior will be viewed as discrimination. Especially religious based objections.
BSA has made itself obsolete with one incredibly stupid decision. I am the Charter Org Rep for my son's troop--I represent the Church to the Scouts. I'll be meeting with our pastor this week to discuss alternatives to Scouting.
Question,: How do you keep the belief in God clause in the oath and accept homo's? That is basically saying the church accepts homosexuality. There better be a line drawn somewhere and it better be quick. The Methodists have already bowed to Satan with homosexual marriage and other changes. I have been attacked to no end when suggesting here that Catholics are doing the same. Catholics will have to make a bold statement or just join in with other denominations like Presbyterians, Lutheran, Methodists, Unitarians, ect, in the dustbin of history. Accepting Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy's, Kerry and their ilk without shame has infected the governing of the Church. I've been saying for years now that the liberals are running the Church only to be flamed with some comment from a stray Bishop or Cardinal with some lonely Op-Ed somewhere in a local rag. There are local parishes that are still conservative, but that doesn't represent the whole church when you take into consideration the whole world. A French Catholic is much different than a West Texas Catholic. IMHO, we are outnumbered and dying a slow death. If you just look at the Catholics of South and Central America, they are more like Hugo Chavez than pope John Paul. The new pope must still be evaluated, but I fear he is an open socialist and will bend to the populist opinions of the day.
This has been suggested before, but if I may:
Yep. Dark days ahead. God will not be mocked....for long.
Thanks so much! Looks like I have some improtant reading to do.
I won’t even buy Girl Scout cookies because they went left in supporting the choice to kill a baby in the womb a long time ago.
So right Matt. Shortly, it will be upon us all.
May God bless you and yours Sir.
For Catholics, there is the Columbian Squires Organization-sponsored by the Knights of Columbus.
The "suits" at BSA National announced the results of their study groups in APR 2013 in that, at worst, they can expect to lose 13.5% of the membership. To them, that is acceptable collateral damage. While I share your sentiment about wanting to see a mass Exodus, it isn't going to happen. The only denominations that have stood up to shout down the BSA are (1) Southern Baptist Convention, (2) Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, (3) Assembly of God, and (4) Presbyterian Church in America.
... The Methodists have already bowed to Satan with homosexual marriage and other changes. ...
You need to get your facts correct. During 4/24-5/04/2012, the UMC held its quadrennial General Conference in Tampa, FL. Delegates voted by about 60 % for to 40 % against softening the language on homosexuality in The Book of Discipline. Delegates retained their denomination's stance that homosexual acts were "incompatible with Christian teaching. There does appear to be a schism coming very soon in the UMC over homosexuality.
Catholics will have to make a bold statement or just join in with other denominations like Presbyterians, Lutheran, Methodists, Unitarians, ect, in the dustbin of history. ...
The Presbyterian Church-USA and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America both ordain homosexuals. They haven't adopted homosexual marriage, yet, but that is coming down the pike. But their are other sects within the Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches which are orthodox and holding the line against homosexuality. Yes, the Unitarians are totally lost over homosexuality. As for the Methodists, well, regarding BSA, they are, for the moment, in agreement with the Mormons and Catholics that they can continue in Scouting with this new membership rule.
Can you provide a source(s) for this info? If I had to guess, the "usual suspects" would be ...
1. Greater New York Councils - Manhattan
2. Mt. Diablo Silverado Council - CA
3. Los Angeles Area Council
4. Western Los Angeles Area Council
5. Silicon Valley Monterey Bay Council - CA
6. Northern Star Council - St. Paul, MN
7. Cradle of Liberty Council - Philadelphia
8. Baltimore Area Council - Baltimore
9. Boston Minuteman Council - Boston
A recently departed and dear friend and mentor had a saying, "If God's in it, it can't fail. If God's not in it, it can't stand."
I believe God gives us opportunities that we don't always recognize because of our tendencies to make snap moral judgements. I like the saying that was coined by Herbert Spencer:
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation