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Thoughts for Catholics impacted by the Boy Scouts of America membership policies
canonlawblog ^ | May 26, 2013 | Edward Peters, JD, JCD, Ref. Sig. Ap.

Posted on 05/26/2013 1:56:19 PM PDT by NYer

Two groups of Catholics are directly impacted by the decision of the Boy Scouts of America to formally admit as scouts youth who profess a same-sex orientation, namely, Catholic sponsoring organizations and Catholic scouts and their families. As always (See Disclaimer no. 1 to the right), I speak only for myself in what follows.

Part One, whether Catholic organizations may sponsor Boy Scouts.

Preliminary points. First, the Church’s absolute rejection of homosexual acts and her description of same-sex attraction as objectively “disordered” (CCC 2357) is not subject to question among Catholics. Second, the Church calls on persons who experience same-sex attraction “to fulfill God’s will in their lives” (CCC 2358) and to practice chastity (CCC 2359) which, for them as for all unmarried persons, connotes complete continence (CCC 2349-2350). Third, the Church warns society to avoid “every sign of unjust discrimination” against those who experience same-sex attraction (CCC 2358).

Now, the policy adopted by the Boy Scouts states in pertinent part: “No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.”

Immediate observations. First, the policy applies only to youth members (males aged 11 thru 17 and, I assume, single), not to adult leaders who, per the Supreme Court decision in Boy Scouts v. Dale (2000)—a case that I think was decided correctly—are excluded based on a same-sex orientation. Second, on its face the policy applies only to membership in the Boy Scouts and not necessarily to participation in all Boy Scout activities; intentionally or not, this narrow phrasing seems to leave open some questions about how a membership policy might be applied to reasonable concerns over participation in certain activities. Third, nothing in the new policy or in Boy Scout literature endorses or advocates the gay life style; in fact all members are prohibited from using the Boy Scouts to promote “any social or political position or agenda”.

These three points being noted, the revised policy may be scrutinized from a Catholic point-of-view as follows.

(1) Granted that the non-discrimination principle outlined in CCC 2358 rings platitudinously (for “unjust discrimination” is never licit!), if the principle therein means anything—and I think it does—it means that the burden of proof lies on those who would discriminate against persons experiencing same-sex attraction to justify that discrimination.

Now in some respects discrimination (e.g., refusing to recognize “same-sex marriage” or prohibiting the admission of homosexuals to seminary) can and should be defended among Catholics. But, that same-sex attraction itself (which is the only factor addressed by the policy), should bar membership (which is the only application of the policy) in a secular organization seems difficult to argue; to propose further that maintaining such a bar is a litmus test for Catholic sponsorship of an organization seems even less tenable. Consider: same-sex attraction, standing alone, does not prohibit one from being a fully initiated Catholic. To argue, therefore, that, say, a Catholic parish must hold a sponsored organization to a higher membership standard than it holds itself to is at best anomalous.

(2) An official statement accompanying the new policy “reinforces that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.” Such a statement, oft repeated, seems wholly in-line with sound Catholic teaching against sexual activity outside of marriage and stands in welcome contrast to the indifference toward premarital sex shown by some other youth organizations let alone to some group’s partnering with the likes of Planned Parenthood. Indeed, aside from youth programs expressly oriented toward chastity, I know of no other secular organization that so clearly declares all sexual conduct by its youth members to be contrary to its values as does the Boy Scouts.

In my opinion, these two points suffice to relieve Catholic organizations from concerns that their sponsorship of the Boy Scouts is, at least at present, incompatible with Church teaching on human sexuality.

Part Two, whether Catholic organizations or individuals may dissociate themselves from Boy Scouts without fear of giving bad example to others.

At one level, this one is easy: there is no obligation to sponsor or join Boy Scouts in the first place, so there is no objection to refraining from or cancelling sponsorship and/or membership in the Boy Scouts. But would such disassociation give “a sign” of unjust discrimination against homosexuals?

I think not.

My decade-long experience of Scouting (Eagle, 1975) was a healthy and entirely “sex-free” adventure. Part of the angst, even anger, that one sees in the wake of the recent Boy Scout decision is really, I suspect, distress over the fact that, now, the almost unique opportunity that the Boy Scouts offered—namely, space for boys to be boys (and not, as society increasingly treats them, as actual or prospective participants in sexually-tinged interactions)—seems compromised.

Scouting requires serious commitments of time, talent, and treasure. If Catholic sponsoring organizations and/or member families can’t conclude that the Boy Scouts are able (perhaps through no fault of their own) to deliver a youth program that actually operates within the parameters expressly (and I think defensibly) asserted by the Boy Scouts, then those Catholic organizations and families will likely decide that burdens of Boy Scout affiliation exceed the benefits.

But, unless and until that conclusion is demonstrated on the evidence (and not largely on predictions), and notwithstanding that some elements of the gay lobby are likely treating the Boy Scouts as pawns in their own wider projects, I think that Catholics may, and should, take the Boy Scouts at their word.

For now, at any rate.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda
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1 posted on 05/26/2013 1:56:19 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; ...

Sorry, no sale. The BSA is dead.


2 posted on 05/26/2013 1:57:59 PM PDT by narses
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
First, the policy applies only to youth members (males aged 11 thru 17

I recall reading somewhere that this age bracket is the most vulnerable to experiment with sex and are the most vulnerable for ssa. Anyone else have more details on this?

3 posted on 05/26/2013 1:58:39 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

I’d say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.


4 posted on 05/26/2013 1:58:39 PM PDT by shelterguy
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To: NYer

5 posted on 05/26/2013 2:00:31 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee

This is a real shame.

My son became an Eagle Scout this year. I’d hate to be in his shoes.

Shame!


6 posted on 05/26/2013 2:01:53 PM PDT by sauropod (Fat Bottomed Girl: "What difference, at this point, does it make?")
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To: NYer

“But, that same-sex attraction itself (which is the only factor addressed by the policy), should bar membership (which is the only application of the policy) in a secular organization seems difficult to argue; to propose further that maintaining such a bar is a litmus test for Catholic sponsorship of an organization seems even less tenable. Consider: same-sex attraction, standing alone, does not prohibit one from being a fully initiated Catholic. To argue, therefore, that, say, a Catholic parish must hold a sponsored organization to a higher membership standard than it holds itself to is at best anomalous.”

This is where the error lies. The Church can and does often impose a requirement higher than simple Catholicity to participate in certain parish activities. For example. There is a requirement on the choir to have an in-tune singing voice - to be able to since along with the head of the choir. There’s the requirement for the priests himself that are well above the membership. For Catholic teachers - the Church doesn’t require that the students be Catholic - but it does require them to abide by the teachings of the Church, and requires that the teachers teach a curricula that is compatible with the Catholic church. A student who is openly gay is considered to be in defiance of this principle, and our school, as well as other schools, can ask them to leave.

The key point here - is ‘openly gay’. A boy scout who is openly gay and practicing, cannot be admitted to a Catholic Boy Scout group for the same reason that the Catholic school asks that the students, if not Catholic - respect the teachings of the Church. Why?

The responsibility is on the Catholic church to protect the students in their charge - many of whom are Catholic themselves, from scandal.

What happens if one of these gay boys do sodomize another, younger boy in the full view of the Catholic parish? Are we really going to get away with saying that the requirements of Catholicity permitted us to admit another child who was in open defiance to the teachings of the Catholic church? Does it absolve us of our fiduciary responsibility to all the children to protect them from abuse? No, no, it does not. We have the numbers and we have the facts. Letting openly gay boys in will result in the sodomizing of these boys. Knowing what we know now and then proceeding to put these children in harms way isn’t going to be a justification against wilfull negligence.


7 posted on 05/26/2013 2:06:36 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: shelterguy
I’d say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.

You mean some sinful Catholics have stopped following the rules of the church (the rules haven't changed)? Why phrase the question in such a vituperative manner? Perhaps you know of a church in which the membership does not sin?

8 posted on 05/26/2013 2:10:09 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: NYer

So, boys who are attracted to other boys should participate in overnights with them?
.
Exactly how low an IQ must one have not to see the problem?


9 posted on 05/26/2013 2:10:10 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (People are idiots.)
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To: NYer

The new policy allows OPENLY GAY AND PROFESSING GAY boys into the scouts. They cannot be excluded.

It follows that scout leaders will not be allowed to “discriminate” against gay scouts—which means that they will not be permitted to tell ANY Boy Scouts that gay sex is wrong. And other Scouts will not be allowed to express their feelings about gay behavior, because that would be “bullying.”

In other words, the new policy requires everyone connected with scouting to express their approval of being gay.

So, this argument is demonstrably unsupportable. You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.


10 posted on 05/26/2013 2:13:13 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: NYer
THIS is the demise of America.

Invent a law or condition or problem that is REALLY self excplanatory left alone ... but .. noooooooo ...

Then, pick the damned thing apart and end up with a violation of what the condition of society was in the first place.

e.g.;

The sky is hereby green
No it's not .. just a shade of aqua
the sky is not green, but also not blue

Henceforth the sky is more greeen than blue ... thus ... the sky is green..

11 posted on 05/26/2013 2:16:04 PM PDT by knarf (uals-two logic)
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To: Cicero
You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.

BTTT!

12 posted on 05/26/2013 2:21:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

This is typical lawyer language. Or may I call it Bull Excrement.

The Church will soon find that legally the BSA can no longer deny leadership to adult active Homosexuals. The Law Suits are already being filed and the BSA will once again spend MILLLIONS of DOLLARS to defend their new membership rules, but this time they will lose, because you can not distinguish between an 18 year old by one day and a seventeen year old with one day till his 18th birthday.

It was always all or nothing with the Homo Lobby and they pushed over and over to allow for their degenerate lifestyle to be acceptable. They are relentless and when given an inch they take a mile.

First it was the idea that they where not mentally ill, just the opposite side of the same phychologicaly correct coin. Then it was the dropping of sodomy and laws against public immorality. Now it is the forcing of not acceptance, but praising of their degeneracy through marital status and monetary benefits. It will soon be the elimination of consent laws to allow them unfettered access to prey upon the teen age and pre teen youth of society.

I believe that this is a losing rear guard action (No pun intended) by the BSA. One they are destined to lose because they where moral cowards at the time it was most important for them to hold to their principals to be morally straight.

This Cannon Lawyer is wrong in his analysis.


13 posted on 05/26/2013 2:22:00 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: NYer

You don’t breed homosexuals....you pursue youths and trap them...fill them with guilt and there’s no way out....and voila...chalk up another homo


14 posted on 05/26/2013 2:22:12 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Cicero

Like Christ says, “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.”

Same with the Boy Scouts.


15 posted on 05/26/2013 2:23:31 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: shelterguy
I’d say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.

No Catholic will ever defend the indefensible. Most of the sex abuse that took place dates back to the 50's and earlier, long before JPII. I would ask you, however, what is being done in non-Catholic communities to stop predatory sex abuse of children? This is not limited to the Catholic Church.

Sex Abuse of Children by Protestant Clergy.

The Catholic Church here, through its bishops in the USCCB, have implemented a program to prevent future occurrences. This includes all members of the community who come in contact with children, from janitors in the schools to volunteers who teach children at the parish level. We all are subjected to fingerprinting and a police background check. We are also required to attend classes on how to identify sexual predators and what actions to take. This is possible because of the centralized nature of the Catholic Church. It is also the reason why the media have been able to focus a laser beam on us. This is not possible in the non-Catholic denominations where there is no one to take responsibility.

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

Awareness Center

Worse still, is the sex abuse of children in the education system.

WHEN BOYS ARE MOLESTED BY TEACHERS AND OTHERS IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY

And then there are the camp counselors, Big Brothers of America and the list goes on and on. There is plenty of guilt to go around. Even BSA has sex abuse lawsuits pending.

16 posted on 05/26/2013 2:27:35 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

Unfortunately, this is a very shallow analysis from someone professing to be a canon lawyer.

He fails to consider the consequences of allowing opnely homosexual boys in the scouts, namely:

a) courts ruling that the BSA cannot force members out when they turn 18, barring them from being leaders,
b) increased chance of homosexual members preying or recruiting younger boys,
c) scouts having to be taught that the homosexual lifestlye is acceptable and to be tolerated so that they don’t practice discrimination (and be open to lawsuits), etc.

Worthless.


17 posted on 05/26/2013 2:28:41 PM PDT by BlessedBeGod
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To: NYer

I don’t like the way he parses sexual orientation as somehow separable from a person’s actions. . We cannot know whether a boy is homosexual unless he tell us by word or action that he is. The Church is is putting itself into an impossible position by linking it with the word discrimination. The Scouts have now made themselves an ally of the Homosexual lobby. The ban on adults will soon be overthrown because the camel has got its nose under the tent. My guess is that the Church is itself in much the same boat because we do have so many homosexual priests, so many we really wonder what to do about them.


18 posted on 05/26/2013 2:32:34 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: steve86

“””I’d say the Catholic church has stopped following their own rules for a long time.

You mean some sinful Catholics have stopped following the rules of the church (the rules haven’t changed)? Why phrase the question in such a vituperative manner? Perhaps you know of a church in which the membership does not sin? “”””””””

It is not the sinners I am referring to, it is the church itself. Do you see the church raising hell with all the liberal politicians that are pro abortion? I don’t. Do you see the church going postal about gay marriage? Not me.


19 posted on 05/26/2013 2:39:39 PM PDT by shelterguy
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To: NYer

There are practical reasons for excluding openly gay scouts. Scouting in practice is based on the “buddy system” where an often older scout is paired with a younger one. Are we going to pair up two kids, one of which is openly gay, with a younger child? Do you pair two gay boys together in the same tent? Anyone see the problems here?


20 posted on 05/26/2013 2:40:20 PM PDT by Sparticus (Tar and feathers for the next dumb@ss Republican that uses the word bipartisanship.)
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To: Cicero

>You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.<

.
You got it.

Also, you cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support, vote or be a member of the democrat party.


21 posted on 05/26/2013 2:41:15 PM PDT by 353FMG ( I do not say whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: NYer
Good thing the Pope speaks for the Church and not this douche bag.

Edward Peters can stick this silliness where the sun don't shine

22 posted on 05/26/2013 2:42:07 PM PDT by Rome2000 (THE WASHINGTONIANS AND UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE ARE THE ENEMY -ROTATE THE CAPITAL AMONGST THE STATES)
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To: RobbyS

Also since when is having a healthy discrimination a bad thing.

T o discriminate is a requirement in the ability to make sound and reasonable choices. We all discriminate against certain activities and policies all the time. It is the essence of morality. The ability to discriminate between right and wrong.


23 posted on 05/26/2013 2:44:15 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: BlessedBeGod
scouts having to be taught that the homosexual lifestlye is acceptable and to be tolerated so that they don’t practice discrimination (and be open to lawsuits), etc.

And this is where it's at. You force the leadership to preach the homosexuality is okay. Eventually you create a culture where anyone who would dare state otherwise is going against "scout teaching" and should be banned. This is how organizations are turned upside down.

This was never about the kids. If it were, a separate organizaton would have arisen a long time ago. No, this is about rotting the core of a once proud organization and demanding acceptance of a lifestyle which pure logic states is a biological deadend.
24 posted on 05/26/2013 2:44:48 PM PDT by CaspersGh0sts
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To: CaspersGh0sts

I believe the Boy Scouts have been so untouchable for so long, they’ve never before, faced any real competition.

I think they will, now.

And as a former Scout myself, I say good.


25 posted on 05/26/2013 2:46:27 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: NYer

BSA won’t uphold basic Judeo=Christian moral values anymore?
Best to move the kids, and donations, to other boys’ clubs that will

“Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good morals.”
1 Cor. 15:33


26 posted on 05/26/2013 2:57:06 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (()
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To: NYer

The Boys Scouts just signed their death warrant as a viable organization. There is nowhere for it to go from here but down into a death spiral.


27 posted on 05/26/2013 3:10:23 PM PDT by AdaGray
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To: NYer

I am so old, I remember when everyone was supposed to be celibate till they were married, and few married before 17. Let’s accept that back then this was observed in the breach at older ages. Why are we talking about sexual orientation of 11 year olds?


28 posted on 05/26/2013 3:18:33 PM PDT by EDINVA
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To: NYer

Surrender, surrender, but don’t give yourself away.


29 posted on 05/26/2013 3:18:59 PM PDT by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: EDINVA

I think we are talking about the sexual orientation of 15-17 year old boys and putting them in charge of younger kids whose gender they are sexually attracted to. It would be the same thing if the girl scouts allowed boys and put a 17 year old boy in charge of a bunch of 14-15 year old girls I suppose.

Freegards


30 posted on 05/26/2013 3:58:09 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Salvation; Ransomed
"You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts."

AMEN!

I disagree completely with this Edward Peters.    I was thinking along the same lines as "Ransomed" in "post 30" - would Edward Peters advocate allowing girls to join the boy scouts, and let them participate in all their activities together with the boys (like camping together, etc.)?

Would he advocate allowing boys to join the girl scouts, and let them participate in all their activities together with the girls?

Would he advocate combining the boy scouts with the girls scouts, and permit them to do all activities together as one group, with no (zero) discrimination between them (such as separating boys bathrooms from girls bathrooms, or having separate sleeping facilities (tents/cabins) based on common-sense discriminating between the sexes)?

Those would obviously be foolish choices to make, and what this "canon lawyer" is advocating is equally foolish.

It is safe to say that President Hom-o-bama would agree completely with Peters advice.

31 posted on 05/26/2013 4:27:53 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:32)
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To: 353FMG
Also, you cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support, vote or be a member of the democrat party.

I wish someone could get that message thru to the ones in Red England...

32 posted on 05/26/2013 4:44:57 PM PDT by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: NYer

Yes, the BSA held out for awhile. Now they are just another sodomite-infected depraved organization. I will be sure not to support them in any way. They have just given new meaning to their motto “Be Prepared”


33 posted on 05/26/2013 5:22:16 PM PDT by 2nd Amendment (Proud member of the 48% . . giver not a taker)
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To: Jeff Chandler
So, boys who are attracted to other boys should participate in overnights with them?
Exactly how low an IQ must one have not to see the problem?

In the Catholic Faith, we'd call that a 'near occasion of sin', and they're to be avoided.

34 posted on 05/26/2013 5:30:51 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: NYer

Legalistic arguments devoid from observations of what is actually going on on the ground. The fact is that starting January 1, 2014, homosexuals will be making the Scouts their territory, and I suspect filing multiple lawsuits immediately demanding “full inclusion.” Second, from a church’s perspective, it is not what may happen in individual troops, it is that the Scouts have endorsed behavior directly in opposition to the uniform teaching of the Bible and the Church. Third, by going along with this policy, you are enabling young men entering into the homosexual lifestyle, something that will have lifetime negative consequences for these young people that are just having their sexual identities formed. The psychological and physical harm caused by male homosexuality can be easily demonstrated, everything from higher rates of depression, suicide and mental illness to AIDS, meningitis and other sexually transmitted diseases.

As a close analogy, just because a lot of people are addicted to drugs does not mean the Scouts should not only not oppose addiction, but instead, say, oh it’s perfectly fine you’re addicted to meth and face a shortened lifespan and mental and physical health problems, we accept you and say that that behavior is not problem for the Scouts.


35 posted on 05/26/2013 5:39:41 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: NYer

The latest count is that 9 councils have adopted the position of ignoring the adult ban. Those 9 councils are fully open to adult homosexuals. I am sure more will also adopt this position.

RIP BSA.


36 posted on 05/26/2013 6:01:53 PM PDT by lost in the snow (One PO'ed Scout Master and Proud of the HIGH moral ground)
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To: Cicero
So, this argument is demonstrably unsupportable. You cannot in good conscience remain a Catholic and support or belong to the Boy Scouts.

Yes, that's the bottom line, and anyone with an ounce of moral Christian fiber knows this to be true, not just Catholics.

37 posted on 05/26/2013 6:10:47 PM PDT by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: narses
>>The BSA is dead.

Yep.


Compass, Broken; 1 each.


Once upon a time this was a useful instrument for pointing the direction a boy should go.

Today, not so much - as the needle has fallen off and rendered the tool into a directionally errant piece of "fiscally conservative" plastic memorabilia.

R.I.P. B.S.A.
38 posted on 05/26/2013 6:37:49 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: NYer

Where has he been? The ones who clamored that gay youth be allowed to join the BSA have been very clear that such a policy will not be enough. They will not stop until gay leaders are permitted as well.

He also forgets that many gays do believe it is discrimination if their sexual activity as well as orientation is not affirmed, tolerance is never enough. So be prepared for the BSA being told that letting gay youth join must be accompanied by policies that make sure that homosexual behavior is treated as being equal to heterosexual behavior. Telling them that the BSA is not about sex will be met with angry protests. Everything is about affirming their sexual choice. Any objections to such behavior will be viewed as discrimination. Especially religious based objections.


39 posted on 05/26/2013 7:00:51 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: NYer
It's not the Church that is in a quandry: BSA is openly acting against its own oath: "On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight".

BSA has made itself obsolete with one incredibly stupid decision. I am the Charter Org Rep for my son's troop--I represent the Church to the Scouts. I'll be meeting with our pastor this week to discuss alternatives to Scouting.

40 posted on 05/26/2013 7:15:47 PM PDT by grellis (I am Jill's overwhelming sense of disgust.)
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To: NYer
Friend of mine has 2 boys in scouting sponsored by the Methodist church here. They have a couple of weeks before they reach their next achievement goals and then they are finished. I predict scouting will be dead WITHIN THE YEAR. their won't be enough participants to even open the doors.

Question,: How do you keep the belief in God clause in the oath and accept homo's? That is basically saying the church accepts homosexuality. There better be a line drawn somewhere and it better be quick. The Methodists have already bowed to Satan with homosexual marriage and other changes. I have been attacked to no end when suggesting here that Catholics are doing the same. Catholics will have to make a bold statement or just join in with other denominations like Presbyterians, Lutheran, Methodists, Unitarians, ect, in the dustbin of history. Accepting Pelosi, Biden, Kennedy's, Kerry and their ilk without shame has infected the governing of the Church. I've been saying for years now that the liberals are running the Church only to be flamed with some comment from a stray Bishop or Cardinal with some lonely Op-Ed somewhere in a local rag. There are local parishes that are still conservative, but that doesn't represent the whole church when you take into consideration the whole world. A French Catholic is much different than a West Texas Catholic. IMHO, we are outnumbered and dying a slow death. If you just look at the Catholics of South and Central America, they are more like Hugo Chavez than pope John Paul. The new pope must still be evaluated, but I fear he is an open socialist and will bend to the populist opinions of the day.

41 posted on 05/26/2013 7:25:22 PM PDT by chuckles
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To: grellis

This has been suggested before, but if I may:

http://www.northstarexplorers.org/

Regards,


42 posted on 05/26/2013 7:27:10 PM PDT by VermiciousKnid (Sic narro nos totus!)
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To: sauropod

Yep. Dark days ahead. God will not be mocked....for long.


43 posted on 05/26/2013 7:35:42 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: VermiciousKnid

Thanks so much! Looks like I have some improtant reading to do.


44 posted on 05/26/2013 8:01:10 PM PDT by grellis (I am Jill's overwhelming sense of disgust.)
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To: Heart-Rest

I won’t even buy Girl Scout cookies because they went left in supporting the choice to kill a baby in the womb a long time ago.


45 posted on 05/26/2013 8:11:14 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Travis McGee
Yep. Dark days ahead. God will not be mocked....for long.

So right Matt. Shortly, it will be upon us all.

May God bless you and yours Sir.

46 posted on 05/26/2013 8:12:45 PM PDT by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: VermiciousKnid

For Catholics, there is the Columbian Squires Organization-sponsored by the Knights of Columbus.


47 posted on 05/26/2013 8:47:12 PM PDT by rmichaelj
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To: chuckles
41 ... I predict scouting will be dead WITHIN THE YEAR. ...

The "suits" at BSA National announced the results of their study groups in APR 2013 in that, at worst, they can expect to lose 13.5% of the membership. To them, that is acceptable collateral damage. While I share your sentiment about wanting to see a mass Exodus, it isn't going to happen. The only denominations that have stood up to shout down the BSA are (1) Southern Baptist Convention, (2) Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, (3) Assembly of God, and (4) Presbyterian Church in America.

... The Methodists have already bowed to Satan with homosexual marriage and other changes. ...

You need to get your facts correct. During 4/24-5/04/2012, the UMC held its quadrennial General Conference in Tampa, FL. Delegates voted by about 60 % for to 40 % against softening the language on homosexuality in The Book of Discipline. Delegates retained their denomination's stance that homosexual acts were "incompatible with Christian teaching”. There does appear to be a schism coming very soon in the UMC over homosexuality.

Catholics will have to make a bold statement or just join in with other denominations like Presbyterians, Lutheran, Methodists, Unitarians, ect, in the dustbin of history. ...

The Presbyterian Church-USA and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America both ordain homosexuals. They haven't adopted homosexual marriage, yet, but that is coming down the pike. But their are other sects within the Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches which are orthodox and holding the line against homosexuality. Yes, the Unitarians are totally lost over homosexuality. As for the Methodists, well, regarding BSA, they are, for the moment, in agreement with the Mormons and Catholics that they can continue in Scouting with this new membership rule.

48 posted on 05/26/2013 9:45:33 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: lost in the snow
36 The latest count is that 9 councils have adopted the position of ignoring the adult ban. Those 9 councils are fully open to adult homosexuals. I am sure more will also adopt this position.

Can you provide a source(s) for this info? If I had to guess, the "usual suspects" would be ...

1. Greater New York Councils - Manhattan
2. Mt. Diablo Silverado Council - CA
3. Los Angeles Area Council
4. Western Los Angeles Area Council
5. Silicon Valley Monterey Bay Council - CA
6. Northern Star Council - St. Paul, MN
7. Cradle of Liberty Council - Philadelphia
8. Baltimore Area Council - Baltimore
9. Boston Minuteman Council - Boston

49 posted on 05/26/2013 9:57:16 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: NYer
Sometimes it's hard to be Christian and even Catholic, I imagine. No matter how it's cadged, there will be folks who tear an idea apart before actually thinking on the whole meaning and implications/ramifications. How can you witness to folks if you keep them separated? On the flip side, how can you ensure those doing the witnessing are mature and stable enough in their belief to withstand Satan's temptations? There is no easy answer, but some of us tend to forget that many of this generations "gay" population has been "coached" and led to that end by those who would pervert everyone if they could.

A recently departed and dear friend and mentor had a saying, "If God's in it, it can't fail. If God's not in it, it can't stand."

I believe God gives us opportunities that we don't always recognize because of our tendencies to make snap moral judgements. I like the saying that was coined by Herbert Spencer:

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”

50 posted on 05/27/2013 2:30:45 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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