IDOLATRY? 'Get that thing down, immediately,' Pope Francis says of Argentinean statue

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - Pope Francis, at the age of 76, has found himself to be a most unwilling media celebrity. A household name and on countless newspapers and magazines, he has been adamant that the message of the church, and not him, is his mission on Earth.

Believers have visited the statue to pay homage to it ever since being installed in the cathedral's garden two weeks ago. Tourists have had their pictures taken alongside the figure. The fiberglass statue is five feet, six inches tall and has been a fixture of the cathedral since the end of June.

The former Archbishop of the Argentine capital, Pope Francis was reportedly horrified at the news.

Strong words with the priest responsible were exchanged between Francis and the priest responsible. "Get that thing down, immediately," the Argentinean newspaper Clarin reported. Since his election in March, Francis has gone to lengths to be seen as humble, showing little patience for the pomp and fuss that come with his position as head of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

Eschewing the robes and trimmings traditionally allocated to the Pope, Francis continues to wear a simple white cassock and iron cross.

Refusing to move into the luxurious Papal apartments, claiming they are too grand, Francis prefers to live in a humble guesthouse for visiting clerics, with whom he eats meals and offers mass every morning.

His celebrity, however, is to be expected. Vanity Fair magazine has declared Francis as Man of the Year in the magazine's Italian edition. "His first 100 days have already placed him in the category of world leaders who make history," the magazine says. "But the revolution continues."

I’ll do my best here to reply, but I feel as though you talked past some of what I had said.

First of all, you seem to ignore my point that the image was cast at God’s command. The command of God. You seem to avoid commenting on this story. Please address the usefulness of this image, and why you think God commanded for it to be cast. I’d like to know your views on the subject. Add scripture as you like, but again, I would like YOUR opinion on why this was done.

I then explained that it was destroyed by Josiah because it had become an idol, at which point you respond by saying that it was destroyed because it was an idol. Where is the problem here?We agree on this ... I think.

Worshipping the seraph serpent was wrong; it was destroyed. Your use of scripture; ie, “Let’s see what God actually says about that”, I don’t follow. It doesn’t make sense to me. Moses was following God’s command in creating the image, Josiah was following God’s command in destroying it. In both cases, I agreed with the action taken. Do you?

Regarding incense, that was commonly used in Jewish worship. Exodus 30 gives directions for the altar of incense.

1 Kings 9:25 tells of Solomon burning incense before the Lord.

Psalm 141 requests of the Lord to ‘let my prayer rise like incense’. So yes, divine worship to God involves incense, as we use in the Catholic Church. It is used to worship the living and true God.

The converse is also true, as you stated in your quotation of 2 Kings.

Regarding statues, you already have the story of the serpent, but also if you look at 1 Kings 7:29, the temple had images of lions, oxen and cherubim. God’s presence overshadowed this temple at its dedication, so it met with the Almighty’s approval.

And most commonly known, of course, were the cast images of cherubim which were on top of the Ark of the Covenant. Again, graven images on the most holy object the Jews possessed, created so at God’s command.

If you recall a story of the Ark, its weight shifted and an unqualified man touched it, and was killed immediately. I hope that this can illustrate again that an object with graven images again demonstrated divine power. This power did not devolve from the objects themselves, but by God’s will that power be granted to them to serve His purpose.

These examples I hope amply respond to your request for information on statues and incense. Furthermore, I am grateful to you for quoting Deuteronomy 12:32 “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”

As you can now see, the incense and a statues were commanded by God, so perhaps to NOT follow these practices is to ignore God’s desires.

The Catholic Church uses incense. Does your place of worship do the same? Yes, we have statues and images that we believe have shown to possess the power of the one true God. Again, does your church (assuming you’re Christian) have the same?

Do you see now where God expressly desires this in worship?

I hope this provides some light, and not heat, on the subject. God bless you.

>>First of all, you seem to ignore my point that the image was cast at God’s command. The command of God. You seem to avoid commenting on this story.<<

Not at all. God did not command to look upon the image in worship of Him. When the Israelites began to do that the image was destroyed. Catholics insist the images are used to serve or worship God which I showed was forbidden by God.

>>I would like YOUR opinion on why this was done.<<

What does MY opinion have to do with what God commands? I don’t worship by what my OPINION is about anything God said or did. I follow what He commanded.

>>In both cases, I agreed with the action taken. Do you?<<

Yep, now how about Catholics get rid of all those “images” like the heathen use in worshiping God?

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth

>>Regarding statues, you already have the story of the serpent, but also if you look at 1 Kings 7:29, the temple had images of lions, oxen and cherubim. God’s presence overshadowed this temple at its dedication, so it met with the Almighty’s approval.<<

Show me one time where God commanded to bow down before those images and burn incense in front of them like the Catholics do with statues of Mary.

>>These examples I hope amply respond to your request for information on statues and incense.<<

For the Israelites prior to Christ’s sacrifice. Are you going to go back to all of the Old Testament Jewish customs and rituals? You must if you insist on following Jewish law and customs.

>>As you can now see, the incense and a statues were commanded by God, so perhaps to NOT follow these practices is to ignore God’s desires.<<

Once again, show me from scripture where God commanded the Israelites to bow down before those images.

>>Do you see now where God expressly desires this in worship?<<

No. I see where He expressly forbids use of idols and images as the Catholics practice.

“Regarding the idolatry [both this thread and another] and your unique viewpoints - don’t forget too about the verse claiming there are no private interpretations so try to find common ground rather than drawing lines to divide anyone. Don’t add nor subtract but accept the plain an simple when the verses requires same.”

What private interpretation? My view is hardly unique. It was the historic view held by historic Protestants. And its still the view held by many today. Many, if not the majority, of recent generations of Protestants have forgotten what we once believed, on all sorts of issues. Liberalism has robbed us of so much. It is amazing what can be learned once you start reading sermons and books from long ago.

The bottom line is that I take idolatry with seriousness because the testimony of Scripture is that God abhors it. I’m not going to look for ways to make it acceptable. I also know we are to walk by faith, not by sight.

God bless you, FRiend!

From Charles Spurgeon’s sermon “A Jealous God”
(http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0502.htm)

Our text is coupled with the command—”Thou shalt worship no other God.” When the law was thundered from Sinai, the second commandment received force from the divine jealousy—”Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.” Since he is the only God, the Creator of heaven and earth, he cannot endure that any creature of his own hands, or fiction of a creature’s imagination should be thrust into his throne, and be made to wear his crown. In Ezekiel we find the false god described as “the image of jealousy which provoketh to jealousy,” and the doom on Jerusalem for thus turning from Jehovah runs thus, “Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.” False gods patiently endure the existence of other false gods. Dagon can stand with Bel, and Bel with Ashtaroth; how should stone, and wood, and silver, be moved to indignation; but because God is the only living and true God, Dagon must fall before his ark; Bel must be broken, and Ashtaroth must be consumed with fire. Thus saith the Lord, “Ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves;” the idols he shall utterly abolish. My brethren, do you marvel at this? I felt in my own soul while meditating upon this matter an intense sympathy with God. Can you put yourselves in God’s place for a moment? Suppose that you had made the heavens and the earth, and all the creatures that inhabit this round globe; how would you feel if those creatures should set up an image of wood, or brass, or gold, and cry, “These are the gods that made us; these things give us life.” What—a dead piece of earth set up in rivalry with real Deity! What must be the Lord’s indignation against infatuated rebels when they so far despise him as to set up a leek, or an onion, or a beetle, or a frog, preferring to worship the fruit of their own gardens, or the vermin of their muddy rivers, rather than acknowledge the God in whose hand their breath is, and whose are all their ways! Oh! it is a marvel that God hath not dashed the world to pieces with thunderbolts, when we recollect that even to this day milhons of men have changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. With what unutterable contempt must the living God look down upon those idols which are the work of man’s hands—”They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: they have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: they have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.” God hath longsuffering toward men, and he patiently endureth this madness of rebelhon; but, oh! what patience must it be which can restrain the fury of his jealousy, for he is a jealous God, and brooks no rival. It was divine jealousy which moved the Lord to bring all his plagues on Egypt. Careful reading will show you that those wonders were all aimed at the gods of Egypt. The people were tormented by the very things which they had made to be their deities, or else, as in the case of the murrain, their sacred animals were themselves smitten, even as the Lord had threatened—”Against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am Jehovah.” Was it not the same with ancient Israel? Why were they routed before their enemies? Why was their land so often invaded? Why did famine follow pestilence, and war succeed to famine? Only because “they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images. When God heard this, he was Froth, and greatly abhorred Israel.” (Psalm 78:58-59.) How was it that at the last the Lord gave up Jerusalem to the flames, and bade the Chaldeans carry into captivity the remnant of his people? How was it that he abhorred his heritage, and gave up Mount Zion to be trodden under foot by the Gentiles? Did not Jeremiah tell them plainly that because they had walked after other gods and forsaken Jehovah, therefore he would cast them out into a land which they knew not?

Brethren, the whole history of the human race is a record of the wars of the Lord against idolatry. The right hand of the Lord hath dashed in pieces the enemy and cast the ancient idols to the ground. Behold the heaps of Nineveh! Search for the desolations of Babylon! Look upon the broken temples of Greece! See the ruins of Pagan Rome! Journey where you will, you behold the dilapidated temples of the gods and the ruined empires of their foolish votaries. The moles and the bats have covered with forgetfulness the once famous deities of Chaldea and Assyria. The Lord hath made bare his arm and eased him of his adversaries, for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
With what indignation, then, must the Lord look down upon that apostate harlot, called the Romish Church, when, in all her sanctuaries, there are pictures and images, relics and slivines, and poor infatuated beings are even taught to bow before a piece of bread. In this country, Popish idolatry is not so barefaced and naked as it is in other lands; but I have seen it, and my soul has been moved with indignation like that of Paul on Mars’ Hill, when he saw the city wholly to idolatry; I have seen thousands adore the wafer, hundreds bow before the image of the Virgin, scores at prayer before a crucifix, and companies of men and women adoring a rotten bone or a rusty nail, because said to be the relic of a saint. It is vain for the Romanist to assert that he worships not the things themselves, but only the Lord through them, for this the second commandment expressly forbids, and it is upon this point that the Lord calls himself a jealous God. How full is that cup which Babylon must drink; the day is hastening when the Lord shall avenge himself upon her, because her iniquities have reached unto heaven, and she hath blasphemously exalted her Pope into the throne of the Host High, and thrust her priests into the office of the Lamb. Purge yourselves, purge yourselves of this leaven. I charge you before God, the Judge of quick and dead, if ye would not be partakers of her plagues, come out from her more and more, and let your protest be increasingly vehement against this which exalteth itself above all that is called God. Let our Protestant Churches, which have too great a savoar of Popery in them, cleanse themselves of her fornications, lest the Lord visit them with fire and pour the plagues of Babylon upon them. Renounce, my brethren, every ceremony which has not Scripture for its warrant, and every doctrine which is not established by the plain testimony of the Word of God. Let us, above all, never by any sign, or word, or deed, have any complicity with this communion of devils, this gathering together of the sons of Behal: and since our God is a jealous God, let us not provoke him by any affinity, gentleness, fellowship, or amity with this Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth.

With what jealousy must the Lord regard the great mass of the people of this country, who have another God beside himself! With what indignation doth he look upon many of you who are subject to the prince of the power of the air, the god of this world! To you Jehovah is nothing. God is not in all your thoughts; you have no fear of Him before your eyes. Like the men of Israel, you have set up your idols in your heart. Your god is custom, fashion, business, pleasure, ambition, honor. You have made unto yourselves gods of these things; you have said, “These be thy gods, O Israel.” Ye follow after the things which perish, the things of this world, which are vanity. O ye sons of men, think not that God is blind. He can perceive the idols in your hearts; he understandeth what be the secret things that your souls lust after; he searcheth your heart, he trieth your reins; beware lest he find you sacrificing to strange gods, for his anger will smoke against you, and his jealousy will be stirred. O ye that worship not God, the God of Israel, who give him not dominion over your whole soul, and live not to his honor, repent ye of your idolatry, seek mercy through the blood of Jesus, and provoke not the Lord to jealousy any more.

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