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Forged Documents and Papal Power (A Former Catholic Nun)
http://www.CatholicConcerns.com ^ | June 2002 | Mary Ann Collins

Posted on 09/02/2013 9:07:37 AM PDT by bkaycee

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What we now call popes were originally bishops of Rome (one bishop among brother bishops from other cities). Then they became popes, with power over the entire Church. Then they became so powerful that they were able to depose kings and emperors. They became so powerful that they were able to force kings to use their secular might to enforce the Inquisition, which was conducted by Catholic priests and monks. In 1870, the Pope was declared to be infallible. The process of increasing papal power was influenced by forged documents which changed people’s perception of the history of the papacy and of the Church.

I’m just going to briefly summarize some information about these forgeries. At the end of this paper is a link to an on-line article which gives detailed historical information.

One of the most famous forgeries is the “Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals,” which were written around 845 A.D. (They are also known as the “False Decretals”.) They consist of 115 documents which were supposedly written by early popes. [Note 1]

The “Catholic Encyclopedia” admits that these are forgeries. It says that the purpose of these forged documents was to enable the Church to be independent of secular power, and to prevent the laity from ruling the Church. [Note 2 gives the address of an on-line article.] In other words, their purpose was to increase the power of the Pope and the Catholic Church.

In addition to documents which were total forgeries, genuine documents were altered. One hundred twenty-five genuine documents had forged material added to them, which increased the power of the Pope. Many early documents were changed to say the opposite of what they had originally said. [Note 3]

One of the forgeries is a letter which was falsely attributed to Saint Ambrose. It said that if a person does not agree with the Holy See, then he or she is a heretic. [Note 4] This is an example of how papal power was promoted by fraudulently claiming the authority of highly respected Early Fathers.

Another famous forgery from the ninth century was “The Donation of Constantine”. It claimed that Emperor Constantine gave the western provinces of the Roman Empire to the Bishop of Rome. The Pope used it to claim authority in secular matters. [Note 5]

When Greek Christians tried to discuss issues with the Church in Rome, the popes often used forged documents to back their claims. This happened so frequently that for 700 years the Greeks referred to Rome as “the home of forgeries”. [Note 6]

For three hundred years, the “Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals” and other forgeries were used by Roman Popes to claim authority over the Church in the East. The Patriarch of Constantinople rejected these false claims of primacy. This resulted in the separation of the Orthodox Church from the Roman Catholic Church. [Note 7 gives addresses of on-line articles.]

In the middle of the twelfth century, a monk named Gratian wrote the “Decretum,” which became the basis for Canon Law (the legal system for running the Roman Catholic Church). It contained numerous quotations from forged documents. Gratian drew many of his conclusions from those quotations. Gratian quoted 324 passages which were supposedly written by popes of the first four centuries. Of those passages, only eleven are genuine. The other 313 quotations are forgeries. [Note 8]

In the thirteenth century, Thomas Aquinas wrote the “Summa Theologica” and numerous other works. His writings are the foundation for scholastic theology. Aquinas used Gratian’s “Decretum” for quotations from church fathers and early popes. [Note 9] Aquinas also used forged documents which he thought were genuine. [Note 10]

The importance of Thomas Aquinas’ theology can be seen in the encyclical of Pope Pius X on the priesthood. In 1906, Pius said that in their study of philosophy, theology, and Scripture, men studying for the priesthood should follow the directions given by the popes and the teaching of Thomas Aquinas. [This papal encyclical is available on-line. Note 11 gives addresses.]

William Webster is the author of “The Church of Rome at the Bar of History”. (I recommend this book.) His web site has an article entitled “Forgeries and the Papacy: The Historical Influence and Use of Forgeries in Promotion of the Doctrine of the Papacy”. The article gives detailed information about the “Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals” and other forged documents, showing their influence on the papacy and on the Catholic Church. Four quotations from his article are below. (They are used by permission.)

“In the middle of the ninth century, a radical change began in the Western Church, which dramatically altered the Constitution of the Church, and laid the ground work for the full development of the papacy. The papacy could never have emerged without a fundamental restructuring of the Constitution of the Church and of men’s perceptions of the history of that Constitution. As long as the true facts of Church history were well known, it would serve as a buffer against any unlawful ambitions. However, in the 9th century, a literary forgery occurred which completely revolutionized the ancient government of the Church in the West. This forgery is known as the “Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals,” written around 845 A.D. The “Decretals” are a complete fabrication of Church history. They set forth precedents for the exercise of sovereign authority of the popes over the universal Church prior to the fourth century and make it appear that the popes had always exercised sovereign dominion and had ultimate authority even over Church Councils.”

“The historical facts reveal that the papacy was never a reality as far as the universal Church is concerned. There are many eminent Roman Catholic historians who have testified to that fact as well as to the importance of the forgeries, especially those of “Pseudo-Isidore”. One such historian is Johann Joseph Ignaz von Dollinger. He was the most renowned Roman Catholic historian of the last century, who taught Church history for 47 years as a Roman Catholic.” [Webster quotes extensitely from Dollinger.]

“In addition to the “Pseudo Isidorian Decretals” there were other forgeries which were successfully used for the promotion of the doctrine of papal primacy. One famous instance is that of Thomas Aquinas. In 1264 A.D. Thomas authored a work entitled ‘Against the Errors of the Greeks’. This work deals with the issues of theological debate between the Greek and Roman Churches in that day on such subjects as the Trinity, the Procession of the Holy Spirit, Purgatory and the Papacy. In his defense of the papacy Thomas bases practically his entire argument on forged quotations of Church fathers…. These spurious quotations had enormous influence on many Western theologians in succeeding centuries.”

“The authority claims of Roman Catholicism ultimately devolve upon the institution of the papacy. The papacy is the center and source from which all authority flows for Roman Catholicism. Rome has long claimed that this institution was established by Christ and has been in force in the Church from the very beginning. But the historical record gives a very different picture. This institution was promoted primarily through the falsification of historical fact through the extensive use of forgeries as Thomas Aquinas’ apologetic for the papacy demonstrates. Forgery is its foundation.”

I strongly encourage you to read William Webster’s article. It has an abundance of valuable historical information. The address of the article is:

http://www.christiantruth.com/forgeries.html

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USE OF THIS ARTICLE

I encourage you to link to this article and to put it on your own web site. You have my permission to copy this entire article or portions of it, and to quote from it. You have my permission to incorporate this entire article or portions of it into publications of your own, including translating it into other languages. You have my permission to distribute copies of this article, including selling it for profit. I do not want any royalties or financial remuneration of any kind. Please give this information to anybody who might be interested in it.

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NOTES

[1] William Webster, “The Church of Rome at the Bar of History” (Carlisle, PA: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1995), pages 62-63. Webster is a former Catholic.

Peter de Rosa, “Vicars of Christ” (Dublin, Ireland: Poolbeg Press, 1988, 2000), pages 58-61, 174, 208. De Rosa is a Catholic, and a former Catholic priest. He was able to do historical research in the Vatican Archives.

Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity” (New York: A Touchstone Book, Simon & Schuster, 1976, 1995), page 195. Johnson is a Catholic and a prominent historian.

[2] “Benedict Levita” in the “Catholic Encyclopedia”. [Benedict Levita is the pseudonym of the author of the “Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals”.]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02466a.htm

[3] De Rosa, page 59.

[4] De Rosa, page 166.

[5] Johnson, pages 170-172.

[6] De Rosa, page 59.

[7] Orthodox Christian Information Center, “The False Decretals of Isidore”. An excerpt from “The Papacy” by Abbee Guette. The author was a devout Catholic and a historian. As a result of his historical research about the papacy, he eventually joined the Orthodox Church.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/decretals.htm

“The Great Schism of 1054”. This is a sermon given at the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St. John the Baptist,in Washington, D.C.

http://www.stjohndc.org/Homilies/9606a.htm

[8] Webster, pages 62-63. De Rosa, page 60.

[9] Webster, page 63. De Rosa, page 60.

[10] William Webster, “Forgeries and the papacy: The Historical Influence and Use of Forgeries in Promotion of the Doctrine of the Papacy”. This gives detailed accounts of Aquinas’ use of forged documents which he wrongly believed to be genuine.

http://www.christiantruth.com/forgeries.html

[11] Pius X, “Pieni l’animo” (“On the Clergy in Italy”), July 28, 1906. (See paragraph 6.)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P10CLR.HTM


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: falsedecretals; forgeddocuments; forgeries; pseudoisidorian
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; ...

Salvation wrote:

Is this the banned site?
http://www.bereanpublishers.com/forged-documents-and-papal-power/

Dunno, but it echos those that are.


61 posted on 09/02/2013 3:03:04 PM PDT by narses
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To: Mrs. Don-o
What is disputable is that human sin and error --- examples of which are plentiful in the very pages of the New Testament, among the Apostles themselves --- negate the spiritual mission of the Church and indict its very foundation.

And yet it does negate anything the church, any church , is trying to do, because those unchurched who are the ones who we need to reach the most, will look at the sin and error and see hypocrisy and conclude that the church is no better than anyone else and they have nothing to offer worth considering.

All they'd see then is there is someone who is wanting to tell them what to do and how to live, who isn't doing it themselves.

Perhaps a better way of saying it is that it doesn't invalidate the mission of the church. The mission is valid because of who Christ and God are/is, but is can render the message ineffective.

62 posted on 09/02/2013 3:05:25 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Wordkraft; JCBreckenridge; Salvation; NKP_Vet; Vendome; DonaldC; fidelis; All

In the case of the Papacy, one won’t find any theology on the Primacy of Rome in the early church. In fact, the testimony of the Fathers on where Peter even was and when is quite divided amongst them, and contradictory to the scripture account.

“We read in the Chronicle of Eusebius, at the year 43, that Peter, after founding the Church of Antioch, was sent to Rome, where he preached the Gospel for twenty-five years, and was Bishop of that city. But this part of the Chronicle does not exist in the Greek, nor in the Armenian, and it is supposed to have been one of the additions made by Jerome. Eusebius does not say the same in any other part of his writings, though he mentions St. Peter’s going to Rome in the reign of Claudius: but Jerome tells us that he came in the second year of this emperor, and held the See twenty-five years. On the other hand, Origen, who is quoted by Eusebius himself, says that Peter went to Rome towards the end of his life: and Lactantius places it in the reign of Nero, and adds that he suffered martyrdom not long after.”
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/07/did-eusebius-say-peter-was-bishop-of.html

Now it does not appear that either Peter or Paul founded the church in Rome at all, since all the Biblical evidence points to believers already being in Rome, without any mention of their founding pastor. If it were an Apostle who had founded the church in Rome, it is illogical that Paul would not have at least mentioned him or wrote to him if he were the head of all the churches. This is what the Roman Catholic Joseph Fitzmyer concedes here:

“…Paul never hints in Romans that he knows that Peter has worked in Rome or founded the Christian church there before his planned visit (cf. 15:20-23). If he refers indirectly to Peter as among the “superfine apostles” who worked in Corinth (2 Cor 11:4-5), he says nothing like that about Rome in this letter. Hence the beginnings of the Roman Christian community remain shrouded in mystery. Compare 1 Thess 3:2-5; 1 Cor 3:5-9; and Col 1:7 and 4:12-13 for more or less clear references to founding apostles of other locales. Hence there is no reason to think that Peter spent any major portion of time in Rome before Paul wrote his letter, or that he was the founder of the Roman church or the missionary who first brought Christianity to Rome. For it seems highly unlikely that Luke, if he knew that Peter had gone to Rome and evangelized that city, would have omitted all mention of it in Acts.” [Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J., Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993), p. 30].

If what Jerome wrote of Eusebius is correct, then Peter would have been in Rome when Paul had written the epistle to the Romans, which is reckoned to have been written around 58AD. When Paul does write to them, he writes only to the members of the church, some by name, but none about its reigning pastor who was supposedly the head of the church.

Not even the supposed successor of Peter, Clement (or the epistle that has his name) is any reference made either to the primacy of Peter (he is instead listed with the other Apostles as fellow workers) or to his own primacy as Pope over the church!

Ingatius, in his letter to Polycarp, writes to his fellow Bishop greeting him thus: “to Polycarp, Bishop of the Church of the Smyrnæans, or rather, who has, as his own bishop, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp).

Now this cannot be so if the Pope is the “perpetual” head of the church, whom all local Bishops must submit to. In Ignatius’ letter to the Romans, he does not even write to or mention its Bishop, even though he had written to the Bishop of every church he had before written to.

In Irenaeus, deeper into the second century, builds the church of Rome on Peter and Paul, whom he writes ordained Bishops of their own, and not founded upon the authority of only one of them.

Even into the 6th or 7th centuries, when the idea of the Primacy of Peter was more developed, was it even defined in the same way that Rome does today.

According to the Catechism, the Roman Bishop is:

882 ... the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.”402 “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”404

It was this same idea of “General Father” or a ‘Universal Bishop” that Gregory condemned in the then Bishop of Constantinople who had taken the title Universal Bishop:

“Consider, I pray you, that in this rash presumption the peace of the whole Church is disturbed, and that it is in contradiction to the grace that is poured out on all in common; in which grace doubtless you yourself wilt have power to grow so far as you determine with yourself to do so. And you will become by so much the greater as you restrain yourself from the usurpation of a proud and foolish title: and you will make advance in proportion as you are not bent on arrogation by derogation of your brethren. Wherefore, dearest brother, with all your heart love humility, through which the concord of all the brethren and the unity of the holy universal Church may be preserved. Certainly the apostle Paul, when he heard some say, I am of Paul, I of Apollos, but I of Christ 1 Corinthians 1:13, regarded with the utmost horror such dilaceration of the Lord’s body, whereby they were joining themselves, as it were, to other heads, and exclaimed, saying, Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul (ib.)? If then he shunned the subjecting of the members of Christ partially to certain heads, as if beside Christ, though this were to the apostles themselves, what will you say to Christ, who is the Head of the universal Church, in the scrutiny of the last judgment, having attempted to put all his members under yourself by the appellation of Universal? Who, I ask, is proposed for imitation in this wrongful title but he who, despising the legions of angels constituted socially with himself, attempted to start up to an eminence of singularity, that he might seem to be under none and to be alone above all? Who even said, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of heaven: I will sit upon the mount of the testament, in the sides of the North: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High Isaiah 14:13.”

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360205018.htm

It wasn’t until one of Gregory’s successors, Boniface III, that the Roman Bishop petitioned the emperor for the title of Universal that they enjoy today.

Some Catholics can read this letter and say that Gregory only condemned the title, but not the power they claim he still possessed. However, there are other instances where Gregory could have embraced his power as “universal” Bishop of the entire church. While at this time the idea of the “Primacy of Peter” was in vogue, yet this same primacy was not translated to a supremacy over the entire church. And, in fact, there wasn’t just one person who held the “throne” of Peter; according to Gregory, it was held by one Apostolic see ruled by divine authority by THREE separate Bishops, which is that of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome. Here is the letter in full, but first I am going to quote the RCC abuse of it:

The link to the whole letter first
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360207040.htm

Now here are the Roman quotations of this letter, wherein they assert that Gregory is a champion of the Primacy of Rome. Take special note of the clever use of ellipses:

Pope Gregory I

“Your most sweet holiness, [Bishop Eulogius of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair, who occupies Peter’s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Peter from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, ‘To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]. And again it is said to him, ‘And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren’ [Luke 22:32]. And once more, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me? Feed my sheep’ [John 21:17]” (Letters 40 [A.D. 597]).

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-ii

“Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?...Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles...received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)

http://credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/gregory.htm

I provide their versions of the quotations only to highlight for you the parts they omit. And, really, there is no reason for them to omit them. The lines they remove are small sentences, and then they continue quoting right after they finish. It’s quite an embarrassing display!

In this letter, Gregory is specifically attributing to the Bishops of Alexandria and Antioch the “Chair of Peter” and its authority that they bestowed upon him. In the first quotation, the Romans omit the sentence which says: “And, though special honour to myself in no wise delights me, [they omit here] yet I greatly rejoiced because you, most holy ones, have given to yourselves what you have bestowed upon me. [They rebegin here]” After telling them about the “special honor” that is respectively given to both parties, Gregory immediately goes into a discussion on what that special honor is... which is the authority of Peter they all enjoy:

“Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. If you believe anything good of me, impute this to your merits, since we are one in Him Who says, That they all may be one, as You, Father, art in me, and I in you that they also may be one in us John 17:21.”

Notice how different this reads when one does not omit what the Romans omit! Gregory declares that the See of Peter is one see... but in THREE places, over which THREE Bishops preside, which is Rome, Antioch and Alexandria, the latter of which he was now writing to.

So while the Romans insist that the Primacy of Peter refers to the Bishop of Rome, Gregory applies the Primacy of Peter to ALL the major Bishops of the See. They are, in effect, ALL the Church of Peter, having received the succession from him and possess his chair and authority.

And Gregory, of course, isn’t alone in this. Theodoret references the same belief when he places the “throne of Peter” under the Bishop of Antioch:

“Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the See of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene (of Antioch) metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphæus (head of the choir) of the chorus of the apostles.” Theodoret - Letter LXXXVI - To Flavianus, Bishop of Constantinople.

In fact, what I have presented here are the principle arguments of the Eastern Orthodox, the other guys who claim to be the One true Holy and Apostolic church of God on Earth.

So we see that the history of the Romanist church his hardly indisputable, but is really built on ignorance of church history and forgeries.


63 posted on 09/02/2013 3:42:02 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: CynicalBear

Ok! So here we are near 50 posts and all we have is that those documents are indeed forgeries and the RCC still used them. Are any of us surprised?


I assume many Catholic,s read the Bible, you would think there would be enough contradictions there to make any one wonder about it.


64 posted on 09/02/2013 3:44:59 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: narses

It is not a banned site.


65 posted on 09/02/2013 3:45:45 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Steve_Seattle

“These posts come from both sides of that debate, and from differing theological points of view, and I sometimes wonder if they are really appropriate for this forum. Yet the moderators usually allow them, so I guess they are considered ok. My personal problem with them is that they “divide the house,””


Go count the sheer amount of Papist threads and read their claims, and you would think FR is an arm of the Vatican.


66 posted on 09/02/2013 4:02:57 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Iscool; metmom; sasportas; NKP_Vet; Steve_Seattle; Campion; narses; don-o
Feeling particularly scholarly this afternoon, my friends? Good.

Your underlying assumption, Iscool, is that all the Petrine theories referenced in the Pseudo-Isidore Decretals (PID), originated in the PID or gain their sole or principal support there. This is not the case.

Every time we in the FR Religion Forum have these discussions of Catholic doctrine, I urge both Catholics and non-Catholics to make reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Rarely have I seen people do this, for reasons I cannot fathom. Anyhow, if you want an overview on the papacy, do try the Catechism, for instance here (Link) --- the footnotes will give you some primary sources to chew on. I assure you they do not rest --- not even a molecule's worth --- upon dodgy 9th century Frankish Dan-Ratherisms.

As to the (I believe it was sasportas') question about whether Pope Nicholas I lied about the forgeries having been in the papal archives for centuries, it looks like he himself was victim of his own archivist's misrepresentations. According to historian Warren Carroll, the PID were first brought to Rome by a Bishop Rothad, who had been deposed from his See of Soissons in Frankish territory by a good canonist, the Archbishop Hincmar of Reims; Rothad appealed his deposition to the Pope.

Rothad brought these documents with him to bolster his appeal (whether he knew they were forgeries or not, Carroll doesn't speculate, but they were apparently supplied to him via his Frankish allies); but Pope Nicholas' unscrupulous librarian, Anastasius (a former antipope) accepted them eagerly and uncritically, and represented them to Pope Nicholas as being of great antiquity.

According to Warren Carroll:

"They were used extensively in a letter to the West Frankish bishops (probably drafted by Anastasius) explaining and justifying Pope Nicholas' order of January 865 restoring Bishop Rothad to his see of Soissons. However, the main purpose of the 'false decretals' was not to strengthen Papal primacy, which was already well established, but to provide the appearance of more canonical safeguards for bishops. The 'false decretals' did not, therefore, play a major role in gaining public acceptance of Papal governance of the Church.

I'm not going to include Carroll's primary footnotes, many of which go back to Latin, French, and German sources (unfortunately, I don't read these languages) but his one English source is, voila, the Catholic Encyclopedia, which has already been referenced by both bkaycee and myself.

Another good source is the Wikipedia article on Pope Nicholas I, here (Link), which in turn references sources in German.

One enlightening detail from Wiki:

A question that is important in judging the integrity of this pope is whether he made use of the forged pseudo-Isidorian papal decretals. After exhaustive investigation, Schrörs has decided that the pope was neither acquainted with the pseudo-Isidorian collection in its entire extent, nor did he make use of its individual parts. He perhaps had a general knowledge of the false decretals, but did not base his view of the law upon them and owed his knowledge of them solely to documents that came to him from the Frankish Empire.

Footnote: [Schrörs, "Papst Nikolaus I. und Pseudo-Isidor" in Historisches Jahrbuch, XXV (1904), 1 sqq.; Idem, "Die pseudoisidorische 'Exceptio spolii' bei Papst Nikolaus I" in Historisches Jahrbuch, XXVI (1905), 275 sqq.].

There, now we all know a whole lot more about Frankish forgeries of the 9th century Carolingian period.

I did, by the way, make the effort to digest a whole lot of material to write this in reasonably brief summary form.

Please spare me any more long cut-and-pastes. Please. I still have my dishes, my garden, and my yet-to-be-scrubbed bathroom awaiting me. I've just given you all I can constructively offer. Tolle, lege.

67 posted on 09/02/2013 4:19:28 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

From the study I’ve done it looks more like it was Simon Magus not Simon Peter that spent that 25 years in Rome building the church there. There is an extensive study here: http://hope-of-israel.org/petrome.htm


68 posted on 09/02/2013 4:25:30 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Nothing like a fictional anti-Catholic former “nun” to bring out the legion of Catholic bashers on FR. Catholics been putting up with the disbelievers and ones that want to destroy God’s Pilgrim Church on earth for the last 2,000 years. If the world stands 2,000 more years the Catholic Church will still be here and the bashers will a still be trying their damnest to tear her down. What was it Jesus said? “If they hated me they will hate you”?


69 posted on 09/02/2013 4:27:26 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: CynicalBear; Campion; don-o; Steve_Seattle; NKP_Vet
Cynical, I just don't have time for this.

Land-claims? The Vatican now has less territory than Central Park, NYC. Thinking the Vatican should go back to settle 1200 year old counterclaims from Frankish princes like Lothair I and Charles the Bald would be whole lot MORE foolish than saying Nashville should give east Tennessee from Mountain City to Chattanooga back to the descendants of Attakullakulla --- especially since the Vatican has no land. See?

Canon Law per se means "Canon Law as it deals with governance." I am trying to distinguish it from doctrine and dogma. Please read a good introduction to Canon Law before you get it all mashed together. Thank you.

Papacy per se --- again I'm trying to distinguish between Petrine ministry and clerical bureaucracy. If that doesn't interest you (and actually, it doesn't interest very many people)--- if that doesn't interest you, you will never make sense of the history here. Laughing off distinctions and complexities will not get you there.

Now I must go clean and garden --- or my own little papist territory here will become unlivable.

G'day and peace!

70 posted on 09/02/2013 4:37:18 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17)
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To: NKP_Vet; HarleyD
But no one until now has examined Mary Ann Collins, the source of this material.

As a point of order, she is not the source of this material per se - Forgeries and inclusions by the Roman church have been a bit of a study for me, and I knew the body of the information encountered in the OP, without ever having heard her name (AFAIR). I am not contending authorship, but rather, asserting that these and many other spurious works are well known, enough to be common knowledge...

71 posted on 09/02/2013 5:10:27 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Iscool
"Well Rome must be lying...LOLOL..." It's really hard to tell, sometimes. lol
72 posted on 09/02/2013 5:25:47 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: CynicalBear

73 posted on 09/02/2013 5:26:45 PM PDT by narses
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To: Mrs. Don-o; sasportas; metmom; bkaycee; Campion
There is not one dogma of the Catholic Church which is based on forged documents.

But assuredly, all of her power IS.

What is disputable is that human sin and error --- examples of which are plentiful in the very pages of the New Testament, among the Apostles themselves --- negate the spiritual mission of the Church and indict its very foundation.

What negates her spiritual mission and indicts her foundation is forgeries and inclusions. And the fact that when the forgeries are found out, the forgeries remain to be cited, and the power amassed from them is not (ever) rescinded. But then if the forgeries were put aside, there would be no proofs at all for Rome's claims, so I can see why it is so. You see, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

74 posted on 09/02/2013 5:34:13 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
>>You see, absolute power corrupts absolutely.<<

And it surely has in the RCC

75 posted on 09/02/2013 6:10:04 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: roamer_1; metmom; Campion
Your idea of what the "power" "amassed" by the Catholic Church consists of, or from whence it derives, needs to be reexamined. It does not consist of land grants and titles, most of which have long since lapsed, been relinquished, or were lost in the rough fast hassle of history. And it does not derive from dodgy papers planted in the archives by some 9th century Frankish librarian.

The documents of which you speak--- "Pseudo-Isidore" and "Donation of Constantine" --- were gone over with a fine-tooth over a period of centuries, literally, by critical-textual scholars (first Catholic, then Protestant) who were willing to do a lot of literary detective work. They were finally well and truly sorted out, with some of the documents found to be legitimate in every way, some of them true but plagiarized, and some of them fabricated (flat-out fraud.)

These are issues of not much interest to anybody today; I rather doubt that even any of the disputants here at FR have even read the whole article in the Catholic Encyclopedia (Link) in its entirety --- deadly dull it is, and small print to boot. (If anybody has, I tip my hat to you.)

So that should be that, except for leather-bound pedants and enthusiasts of sectarian jiggery-pokery, from whom graciously preserve us, O Lord.

But some clarification is needed: just what "amassed" "power" should I, as a Catholic, be on the lookout for?

These additional perspectives may possibly be of interest:

#67

...and...

#70

And now, bedtime for me, and peace to you. I'm up early tomorrow.

76 posted on 09/02/2013 6:47:42 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (When I grow up, I'm gonna settle down, chew honeycomb & drive a tractor, grow things in the ground.)
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To: fidelis; bkaycee
When I see someone who seems to spend all their waking hours digging up and posting numerous venomous and inaccurate anti-Catholic articles, I just think. “What a sad, sad, person. He or she apparently has experienced some hurt or disappointments in their life to become so obsessively hateful. They surely need our prayers.” And then I pray for them.

I hope you are praying for the Catholics who regularly post venomous and inaccurate anti-Protestant articles. I know I do.

As to the content of THIS thread, what do you consider to be inaccurate about it? That should really be what we talk about.

77 posted on 09/02/2013 8:09:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; bkaycee
The person who finally did do the necessary, painstaking detective work was none other than a fifteenth century Latin scholar, Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa. A Catholic, you'll note. It's been a long time since anybody seriously argued that the Decretals and the Donation were genuine. So the Pseudo-Mary-Ann runs up now to the train station, red-faced but triumphant, proclaiming that she has discovered these forged Frankish manuscripts? That train left a couple centuries ago, Pseudo-Sister. Nice try.

Though I can appreciate the Catholic motivation to brush aside whatever came about as a result of forgeries in the Church during the first fifteen hundred years and, of course, any messenger who happens to dare mention them, what I don't see is any attempt to undo the many bulls and dogmas, canons and credos that resulted from those now-proven false manuscripts. Any Catholic cleric pursuing that painstaking detective work that you know of?

78 posted on 09/02/2013 8:26:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: HarleyD; bkaycee
Amen!

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (Romans 13:8)

79 posted on 09/02/2013 8:32:30 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; sasportas; metmom; bkaycee
The main principles Gratian labored to set forth ---the necessary independence of the Christian Church and its mission from domination by secular politics; the Church's right, as its own society, to appoint clergy, set standards of discipline, convene its own councils and synods, and conduct itself according to its own constitutions; the whole principle of due process within the Church --- are not, or should not be, controversial to any Protestant, nor to any religious group whatsoever.

If those were the only reasons for the collective invention of the Decretals - that of the independence of the Christian church from secular rules - you may have a valid point. But we know that these forged documents were used for centuries to further the myth of the establishment of the Papacy starting with the Apostle Peter and, in turn, the authority and power in both the temporal as well as spiritual realm for ALL of Christendom for the Pope of Rome.

Does this mean that the papacy per se was based on fraud? By no means. The papacy is not a matter of land and political claims. Does this mean that the Catholic doctrines on faith and morals were, for centuries, in error because of these forgeries? Not at all. There is not one dogma of the Catholic Church which is based on forged documents.

Actually, it does! From The Historical Influence and Use of Forgeries in Promotion of the Doctrine of the Papacy :

    They set forth precedents for the exercise of sovereign authority of the popes over the universal Church prior to the fourth century and make it appear that the popes had always exercised sovereign dominion and had ultimate authority even over Church Councils. Nicholas I (858–867) was the first to use them as the basis for advancing his claims of authority. But it was not until the 11th century with Pope Gregory VII that the these decretals were used in a significant way to alter the government of the Western Church. It was at this time that the Decretals were combined with two other major forgeries, The Donation of Constantine and the Liber Pontificalis, along with other falsified writings, and codified into a system of Church law which elevated Gregory and all his successors as absolute monarchs over the Church in the West. These writings were then utilized by Gratian in composing his Decretum. The Decretum, which was first published in 1151 A.D., was intended as a collection of everything that Gratian could find which could give historical precedent to the teaching of papal primacy, and therefore the authority of tradition, which could then carry the force of law in the Church. It had such success that it became the standard work of the law of the Roman Church and thus the basis of all canon law and Scholastic theology. Some Roman Catholic apologists claim that though there were forgeries in the Church, these really had very little impact upon the advancement and development of the papacy, since it was already an established reality by the time the forgeries appeared. Karl Keating, for example, states that practically all the commentators, with the exception of fundamentalists, agree with this assessment. But this is completely false. The historical facts reveal that the papacy was never a reality as far as the universal Church is concerned.

    The authority claims of Roman Catholicism ultimately devolve upon the institution of the papacy. The papacy is the center and source from which all authority flows for Roman Catholicism. Rome has long claimed that this institution was established by Christ and has been in force in the Church from the very beginning. But the historical record gives a very different picture. This institution was promoted primarily through the falsification of historical fact through the extensive use of forgeries as Thomas Aquinas' apologetic for the papacy demonstrates. Forgery is its foundation. As an institution it was a much later development in Church history, beginning with the Gregorian reforms of pope Gregory VII in the 11th century and was restricted completely to the West. The Eastern Chruch never accepted the false claims of the Roman Church and refused to submit to its insistence that the Bishop of Rome was supreme ruler of the Church. This they knew was not true to the historical record and was a perversion of the true teaching of Scripture, the papal exegesis of which was not taught by the Church fathers.

    Dr. Aristeides Papadakis is an Orthodox historian and Professor of Byzantine history at the University of Maryland. He gives the following analysis of the Eastern Church’s attitude towards the claims of the bishops of Rome especially as they were formulated in the 11th century Gregorian reforms. He points out that on the basis of the exegesis of scripture and the facts of history, the Eastern Church has consistently rejected the papal claims of Rome:

      What was in fact being implied in the western development was the destruction of the Church’s pluralistic structure of government. Papal claims to supreme spiritual and doctrinal authority quite simply, were threatening to transform the entire Church into a vast centralized diocese...Such innovations were the result of a radical reading of the Church’s conciliar structure of government as revealed in the life of the historic Church. No see, regardless of its spiritual seniority, had ever been placed outside of this structure as if it were a power over or above the Church and its government...Mutual consultation among Churches—episcopal collegiality and conciliarity, in short—had been the quintessential character of Church government from the outset. It was here that the locus of supreme authority in the Church could be found. Christendom indeed was both a diversity and a unity, a family of basically equal sister-Churches, whose unity rested not on any visible juridical authority, but on conciliarity, and on a common declaration of faith and the sacramental life. The ecclesiology of communion and fraternity of the Orthodox, which was preventing them from following Rome blindly and submissively like slaves, was based on Scripture and not merely on history or tradition. Quite simply, the power to bind and loose mentioned in the New Testament had been granted during Christ’s ministry to every disciple and not just to Peter alone...In sum, no one particular Church could limit the fulness of God’s redeeming grace to itself, at the expense of the others. Insofar as all were essentially identical, the fulness of catholicity was present in all equally. In the event, the Petrine biblical texts, cherished by the Latins, were beside the point as arguments for Roman ecclesiology and superiority. The close logical relationship between the papal monarchy and the New Testament texts, assumed by Rome, was quite simply undocumented. For all bishops, as successors of the apostles, claim the privilege and power granted to Peter. Differently put, the Savior’s words could not be interpreted institutionally, legalistically or territorially, as the foundation of the Roman Church, as if the Roman pontiffs were alone the exclusive heirs to Christ’s commission. It is important to note parenthetically that a similar or at least kindred exegesis of the triad of Matt. 16:18, Luke 22:32 and John 21:15f. was also common in the West before the reformers of the eleventh century chose to invest it with a peculiar ‘Roman’ significance. Until then, the three proof–texts were viewed primarily ‘as the foundation of the Church, in the sense that the power of the keys was conferred on a sacerdotalis ordo in the person of Peter: the power granted to Peter was symbolically granted to the whole episcopate.’ In sum, biblical Latin exegetes before the Gregorian reform did not view the New Testament texts unambiguously as a blueprint for papal sovereignty; their understanding overall was non–primatial.

      The Byzantine indictment against Rome also had a strong historical component. A major reason why Orthodox writers were unsympathetic to the Roman restatement of primacy was precisely because it was so totally lacking in historical precedent. Granted that by the twelfth century papal theorists had become experts in their ability to circumvent the inconvenient facts of history. And yet, the Byzantines were ever ready to hammer home the theme that the historical evidence was quite different. Although the Orthodox may not have known that Gregorian teaching was in part drawn from the forged decretals of pseudo–Isidore (850’s), they were quite certain that it was not based on catholic tradition in either its historical or canonical form. On this score, significantly, modern scholarship agrees with the Byzantine analysis. As it happens, contemporary historians have repeatedly argued that the universal episcopacy claimed by the eleventh–century reformers would have been rejected by earlier papal incumbents as obscenely blasphemous (to borrow the phrase of a recent scholar). The title ‘universal’ which was advanced formally at the time was actually explicitly rejected by earlier papal giants such as Gregory I. To be brief, modern impartial scholarship is reasonably certain that the conventional conclusion which views the Gregorians as defenders of a consistently uniform tradition is largely fiction. ‘The emergence of a papal monarchy from the eleventh century onwards cannot be represented as the realization of a homogenous development, even within the relatively closed circle of the western, Latin, Church’ (R.A. Marcus, From Augustine to Gregory the Great (London: Variorum Reprints, 1983), p. 355). It has been suggested that the conviction that papatus (a new term constructed on the analogy of episcopatus in the eleventh century) actually represented a rank or an order higher than that of bishop, was a radical revision of Church structure and government. The discontinuity was there and to dismiss it would be a serious oversight (Aristeides Papadakis, The Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy (Crestwood: St. Vladimir’s, 1994), pp. 158-160, 166-167).

To claim that this is much to do about nothing as if everyone now knows not to quote from these false documents and that, anyway, none of the Catholic Church's doctrines on faith and morals are affected, is simply not the case. The very principle that the Pope is "infallible" on matters of faith and morals is called into question. When you begin at the very authority of the office, then ALL the proclamations that followed are called into question. This was probably the MAJOR point of conflict with the Reformers and, before them, with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

There is no denying that many of the doctrines which the Catholic Church holds to today ARE the same Christian doctrines held by the majority of ALL Christians and which have a clear Scriptural basis. But, when Rome stepped away from the need for a Scriptural warrant and invented dogmas that could not be proved by Scripture and which had no antiquity nor unanimous consent of the fathers, they demanded the right to do so anyway based upon the now-proven false basis for that authority. If there IS no early Papacy, no universal recognition of authority to the Pope of Rome, no ancient history that establishes the Apostles built it into the church, then the very foundation of the Catholic Church collapses because it is built upon the human rock of Peter instead of the TRUE Rock, which is Jesus Christ the Lord. The Christians in the churches of Rome are equal to all the other local churches throughout the Christian world. No one bishop has supremacy over them all. I believe that the New Testament example of that is the one that is STILL in effect today.

80 posted on 09/02/2013 9:30:55 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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