Skip to comments.Pope Francisí comments on homosexuality in the Big Interview
Posted on 09/19/2013 5:04:36 PM PDT by markomalley
click here to read article
Pope Francis, formerly a Jesuit, gave a series of interviews to the Jesuits. The interviews have been edited together, with parenthetical commentary and descriptions of the setting and so forth, and translated by lay people and Jesuits for publication in Jesuit publications. The English version is at the site of Jesuit-run America Magazine.
The interview is dense. There is a LOT going on in it. It is too much for the brain to take in at one sitting.
As you read the interview, and media coverage of the interview, you will find and this is consistent with Pope Francis style of talking off-the-cuff some truly quotable quotes, leap-out quotes that sit up and beg to be taken out of context. Look at what the MSM is doing with some of them.
For example, the New York Times leads with a headline Pope Bluntly Faults Churchs Focus on Gays and Abortion (By Laurie Goodstein). Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis did? CBS has Pope Francis: Catholic Church must focus beyond small-minded rules and goes on to say Pope Francis has warned that the Catholic Churchs moral structure might fall like a house of cards if it doesnt balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make it a merciful, more welcoming place for all. Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis really said? The CBS statement makes the Pope sound as if he thinks that the Church has to change its teaching about abortion and homosexuality or it will collapse like a house of cards.
Even if you havent read the whole interview/article, some 12000 words, common sense tells you that that is not what the Pope said.
It is important when reading the interview, and media coverage of the interview, to keep your eyes on those leap-out quotes. When you see the MSM using those leap-out quotes in a way that doesnt pass the smell test, go back and look at the context, the whole paragraph.
The whole context of the paragraph deconstructs the leap-out quotes and makes those quotes make sense.
Also, think about the Francis effect in the reporting of this interview.
For example, if Benedict XVI talking in an interview about the need for a theology of women and a deeper discussion of the role of women in the Church had said what Francis said, the headlines would have screamed POPE DENIES EQUALITY TO WOMEN!. On the other hand, Francis, in this interview, spoke with real disdain for female machismo as a solution to the question of womens roles. When you read the paragraph on women and womens roles in the Church you discover that Pope Francis is NOT a fan of radical feminism. Francis spoke about what Popes before him have called feminine genius. Nothing new. He said, a woman has a different make-up than a man and we must not confuse the function with the dignity. But since this is Francis being interviewed, and not Benedict or John Paul, journalists will go with something like, POPE WANTS GREATER ROLES FOR WOMEN!. You wont read what the Pope really communicated: Yes, women must play an important role in the Church, but mens roles and womens roles are different, and that also means that women cant be ordained.
Thats one example. Another example we will have to look at along the way is what Pope Francis meant by right winger. I dont think he meant by that what the MSM and the catholic media - is going to make of it. I think there is more to it that the leap-out quote says in those few words. Ill get to that in another post.
Here is an overarching concern I take away from my first readings.
Through interviews and the coverage of interviews a virtual Francis is being created. An interview, by its nature, can only go so far. Short questions and short responses only go so deep.
We have to make sure that, with all the media attention, with all these interviews, that the virtual Francis is not stronger than the real Francis.
That is exactly what Benedict XVI in his last days as Pope said and warned about how the Second Vatican Council was interpreted. The media and others created a virtual Council. Remember that? There is a Council of the Media and a Council of the Fathers.
Week by week a Francis of the Media is being crafted.
Popes dont govern through interviews.
Pope Francis speaks about a lot of heavy and burning issues: the role of women, abortion and homosexuality, to name a few. There is not a word in the interview that changes the Churchs teaching. He indicates what his interests are and his focus for his limited time and energy is going to be. That is an important take away from the interview.
If this Pope isnt going to speak out a great deal about abortion or homosexuality, its because he knows that everyone is perfectly clear about what the Church teaches on these points. Francis as is consistent with his old-fashioned Jesuit training wants to be efficient in the use of his time and energy.
Because the Churchs teachings are clear, Francis will spend his precious time and energy showing a side of the Church that people, especially the MSM, hasnt paid attention to: that the Church is not a museum of the perfect, it is a field hospital for sinners. Pope Francis is reminding the whole world that we are sinners and that we have to have compassion for each other, patience with each other, that we have to work to help each other even at some great cost. Francis is, to put it simply, touching up the Churchs human face and presenting her anew to a jaded, fallen world.
Ill have more thoughts about particular segments and statements in the interview along the line. I wanted, however, to offer a few thoughts and lenses that might help you in your own reading of the interview and of the media coverage of the interview.
Here are the pieces I mentioned in the other thread.
Abortion apparently isn’t a big deal since, when Pope Francis was in Brazil he didn’t talk to their leader about the upcoming move to liberalize their abortion laws.
Well, if God doesn't control minds, then the Scriptures that Francis' club claims to have delivered to man is wrong. The interviewer may wish to read the Book. But, th fact they don't explains a lot of the error found in the RCC, at large.
Well said statement by the Pope. You don't believe in Free Will? God does not force anyone to do anything. They choose.
some needs to dump this link on the pope with his adult filter off
(EXTREME WARNING: liberal lifestyle on parade in public):
then ask him if this is alright with God (because it’s perfectly fine with Pelosi... this is her district)
the VAST majority of moral people have no idea what’s going on and who these people are
Francis urges priests not to push cohabiting couples away
09/16/2013 - Vatican Insider
don’t cast your pearls before swine. they will trample them underfoot.
don’t cast your godly wisdom before people who have no ability to appreciate it. they will disregard it.
there are some people that it makes sense to explain things to, namely the seekers, the humble, the genuinely interested, those looking for a real hope.you don’t waste it talking to walls, you don’t waste it talking to those that could care less about it. because they don’t see any value in it at all, and will just trample it underfoot.
God loves us when we come to Him as we are, but He does expect us to change, to conform to Him as we grow as Christians. he does not want us to stay the same and continue sinning and believe we can just keep being the active homosexual, the militant pro-abortion person, the person who stays’jealous of those that have better things, the person who gossips and bitches about everyone and everything, etc. After the “you are forgiven” always came the “Go and sin no more.” That means He expects us to do better than we did before. and keep doing better as we grow in Him.
With all due respect to the Pope, why doesn’t he include more of the Scriptures, particularly the teachings of Jesus which pertain to unrepentant sin, in his discussions about homosexuality?
More specifically, not only does Matthew 18:15-17 show that Jesus instructed Christian churches to essentially give the boot to unrepentant sinners, but 1 Corinthians 5 is an example of Paul doing just that. 1 Cor. 5 shows that Paul chewed out that church for not giving the boot to unrepentant sinners, sinners who just happened to be guilty of sexual immorality (it’s a small world), incest the problem in that example.
So I question the Pope’s seeming stance that the Church’s job is to be a “Mr. nice guy” and essentially give unrepentant sinners the benefit of the doubt in such situations. That’s the way I’m reading the Pope anyway.
In fact, 1 Corinthians 5:13 shows Paul referencing God’s command to the ancient Israelites to “purge the evil from among you,” meaning in NT times to expel such people from the congregation as Jesus taught, as opposed to putting them to death as God required in OT times.
The key Bible passage that people struggling with homosexuality need to understand, imo, is 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. That passage warns, “do not be deceived” about things like same-sex sexual relationships if you want to inherit the kingdom of God. That passage goes on to indicate that some members of that church had formerly struggled with such sin, but had evidently repented and accepted God’s grace to turn their lives around.
But the response for somebody who is truly contrite for his/her sins and has begged for forgiveness and who has then received absolution for those sins is to try to not sin again.
Up until recently, I would say, "How many of those people don't realize that homosexual conduct is gravely sinful, that abortion is gravely sinful, etc., etc., etc."
Sadly, a larger and larger bulk of Christianity is disavowing perfectly obvious, plain talk about these teachings of Christ and are teaching sin as if it were a moral good.
And so, while I understand and support the Holy Father's teaching...concentrating on Christ the Divine Physician...Who heals not only our physical maladies but the maladies of our souls...I hope that he does speak about the proper response on the part of the Christian to that healing.
Don’t misunderstand what the Bible teaches about God’s sovereignty.
“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2: 13)
Sinners are free in a sense, but they are free only in the direction of sin.
“For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness” (Rom. 6:20).
A man can chose a religion, but he can’t chose Christ, not in a saving sense. Salvation isn’t by genetics, and it’s not by human decision or choice, it’s by a miracle wrought in the human heart by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is by sovereign free grace. The best thing that ever happened to me was when The Lord violated my “free will.”
” Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Actually, if you pay attention to the daily reflections of the Holy Father...he does concentrate quite a bit on them.
Now, mind you, he won't say "take your Bibles and open to Romans Chapter 1..."
But he will speak about them in the midst of his speech.
…particularly the teachings of Jesus which pertain to unrepentant sin, in his discussions about homosexuality?
Speaking of that, did you ever really pay attention to Romans 1? I mean really reflect upon it?
 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice:  Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them.  For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.
 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened.  For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.  And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things.  Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.  Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections.
Did you notice that St Paul talks about how people abandoned God...and then, for this cause (the cause being that they abandoned God), God delivered them up to shameful affections?
Did you perhaps think that Francis might be trying to get rid of the "for this cause"...?
Just a thought...
I’m not giving my opinion. I’m quoting His Word. Forget the pope and read the Bible.
Right. Thanks for your opinion.
I’ll stand on His word rather than the babblings of a sinful man.
“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psalm 119:105)
I think the Pope is making a distinction between what society calls homosexuals and what the church calls homosexual acts. Just as we don’t refer to someone who has committed fornication or adultery as the fornicator or the adulterer, as though that act defines their entire being, we should take care to separate homosexual acts from the value in God’s eyes of the person who commits them.
“Ill stand on His word rather than the babblings of a sinful man.”
Yes I feel the same way.
“The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8
You can trust the Bible. I wasn’t giving my opinion. I was reminding you what God has said of Himself.
Mark, I believe this is why the Holy Rosary said by humble pilgrim believers, at abortion mills, has known such success to SHUT THEM DOWN.
These dear people do not harangue, they do not incite or badger, but offer love and resolve to a tragic irreversible action, armed with practical, immediate assistance to help solve a desperate situation.
They practice what the Holy Father recommends here.
Dear Pope Francis, thank you. Signed, #prochoice women
I was waiting for the infallible word to come up. This was an interview — it was not a doctrine or a dogma pronounced by the Pope or the Magisterium.
The Pope is not impeccable. He goes to Confession too. John Paul II is said to have gone to Confession once a week.
So do you confess your sins and know they are forgiven?
**Forget the pope and read the Bible.**
LOL! I can just picture you trying to tell that to St. Peter. LOL!
Where's that in the Bible?
Where does the Bible tell you that the Bible is the sole rule of faith?
And it can't.
It would have been impossible for the biblical writers to refer to "the Bible" ("the books") as a whole, because the books of the Bible weren't canonized until centuries after all of its books had been written.
Believe what you will.
You can trust the Bible. Which one?Why the King James, of course, because "If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"
Since there are so many of them, no.
Not opinion, plain talk, it is the word of God...plain and simple. Read it for yourself.
“I was reminding you what God has said of Himself.”
Thanks for that, .45 Long Colt!
The one I use is the Life Application Study Bible and the profiles of biblical persons, the chapter notes, maps, and index are invaluable.
The first one was a gift from my beloved grandmother and is falling apart. For three years it rarely left my hands or my presence. I am now on my second one.
Highly recommended, Thomas. Get one and do a comparison side by side with a Catholic bible.
Peter would be the first one to say...study the Scriptures for yourself.
It just breaks my heart how utterly deceived and blinded by Rome these good people are.
Why would we lie to you? We have absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. You leave Rome, come to a saving grace thru Christ Jesus, and are born again and filled with the Spirit. If we are so horrible, then why in the world would we want you to have that? We should be just the opposite and keep this wonder all to ourselves.
We are not the ones deceiving you...we are not the enemy.
It must be a far more terrifying thing that I have ever imagined for a Catholic to leave Rome. Secret Agent Man was right when he said we speak to the interested, the seeker, and the humble. And we also speak to those perhaps too terrified to even contemplate leaving Rome.
I will say, that if any of you would like to speak in private about anything with me, you have my word that nothing will be brought out publicly...just in case fear is driving some of you.
I can say truly that we do care, we are here for anyone, and we will help anyone who does desire to leave the RCC. And it will be up to you to choose whether anyone else on this forum or in the world ever knows about it.
For those of you listening and hearing and who are genuinely interested, I invite you to PM me.
God bless you all,
I believe he has a homosexual past, or is currently practicing homosexuality.
It is most likely one or the other.
And this quote from him is absolute heresy to God's Word, the Holy Bible.
Where is this statement, "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" a heresy to God's Word, the Holy Bible?
Are you saying that the Bible supports homosexual "marriage"?
Because Cardinal Bergoglio said that homosexual marriage was a machination of the devil.
If you're going to post cheesy jpegs, I'd think you could at least post the correct quote.
BTW, a little bit later, he said: We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.
But, of course, since you support homosexual “marriage”, I guess you wouldn’t want to understand what he actually says.
When did I ever say I support “homosexual marriage?”
” When did I ever say I support homosexual marriage?”
Since you called his opposition to “marriage equality” a heresy against the Scriptures, what other conclusion should one draw.
The pope DID say what I posted, on July 22, 2013 during an interview with reporters. The “context” you posted adds nothing to detract from his moral relativism, in fact, it only adds to the bitter stew he himself is cooking.
He has refuted his own statements, and that is what I meant to convey. My fault for the confusion - sorry.
Perhaps this is the wishful thinking your organization holds. As with many other traditions it promotes, this view does not comport with the Scriptures.
Prov. 21:1 "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Prov. 16:9 "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.
There is nothing uncontrolled in the universe...
Prov. 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord.
Free will? Sorry. There are probably 100 more passages where free will is debunked. But, it requires one to read the text without the organizational glasses on. We have a God who really is God. Maybe the RCC should reconsider the god they worship...if they can.
Very kind offer. Hopefully, God will allow someone to seek you out and visit.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thanks.