Is "The Rock" of Matthew 16:18 St. Peter? Or His Confession of Faith? [Ecumenical]

Catholic Defense ^ | October 8, 2013 | Joe Heschmeyer

[CommerceComet]

Because that is the way it is done in the Greek.

What rule of Greek grammar would have Matthew refer to Peter with both masculine and feminine genders? It seems much more likely that Matthew is referring to two things, hence, the words of different genders.

[MeneMeneTekelUpharsin]

Per my statement, I happen to be correct. Thanks.

[HarleyD]

Through the laying on of hands, the "Chair of Peter" has been passed down for 2000 years. Here is the list, from Wikipedia, an independent source.

Wikipedia is hardly an independent source. People submit their information and Wikipedia's editors verify that it warrant posting. Wikipedia is a great tool for understanding different views and facts. However, the list posted on Wikipedia is a Catholic representation of the facts. In that list you will not find references to what Protestants often point to as broke parts of the linage. Some of these linage issues would include the reference to the infamous "Pope Joan" or how there were at least two popes reigning concurrently during the middle ages when the Church was split and the pope left Rome. You can find these issues talked about on Wikipedia as well. They just are not included in this list.

[CynicalBear]

The Holy Spirit put it in the text as a word by itself for a reason. And why is it that FRoman Catholics teach that it’s Peter and their own magesterium says it’s the confession of Peter and not Peter himself?

CCC 424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. "To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"

I thought Catholics were supposed to believe what the RCC teaches.

[CynicalBear]

>> Thank you, but he has stated his position and the facts will not change his mind.<<

Interesting how you claim to know more than the RCC which you say you follow.

CCC 424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. "To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ"

[HarleyD]

The last living apostle was John, not Peter. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists four popes as succeeding Peter, St. Linus, St. Anacletus I, St. Clement I and St. Evaristus, the last of whom reigned about A.D. 99. The apostle John lived until about A.D. 100 or later. Yet John, in his writings, never once mentioned the name of any of these popes or even the fact that any pope existed. Why? Four popes supposedly succeeded Peter during the life span of the apostle John. Yet, if there was to be a successor, wouldn’t John, the beloved disciple of Jesus and apostle of the Lamb and one of the twelve foundation stones, be the most logical choice?

[dartuser]

And where is the church of Rome mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3? Seems like the letters to the existing churches at the time would include Rome if Rome was truly that important.

The fact that Christ does not address a church in Rome immediately proves that Rome had ... and continues to have ... NO claim to primacy ... whether ancient or modern.

[Iscool]

What rule of Greek grammar would have Matthew refer to Peter with both masculine and feminine genders? It seems much more likely that Matthew is referring to two things, hence, the words of different genders.

Of course Matthew is correct...

All one has to do is dump the fables and fallacies and ask Peter about it...

[count-your-change]

Greek grammar is the same no matter who reads it or for what reason. Catholics will teach what they teach but the grammar remains the same for everyone.

There is plenty of free information about Greek translation and grammar online.

[Elsie]

Careful there. “You” in verse 19 singular/second person, thus addressed to one person, Peter.

And the OTHER guys standing there didn't say a word, eh?

---

So there goes 'who shall be the greatest'...

[Elsie]

It’s as useful as one of his normal image postings; isn’t it!

[count-your-change]

The Greek says what it says. You may take it in any way you choose but it will still say the same thing.

Any argument is far more convincing when it is accurate, and I’m sure you want to be accurate in your quotes of Scripture.

[daniel1212]

If I was a popish type person, I'd follow Paul...He wins over Peter, hands down....

Well, Paul could state, "for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing." (2 Corinthians 12:11)

And Pope Francis is reported to have affirmed, when asked,

Can I ask you, Your Holiness, which saints you feel closest to in your soul, those who have shaped your religious experience?

“St. Paul is the one who laid down the cornerstones of our religion and our creed [the pope substitutes Paul for Peter. When did you see a TRC say that? Closet Prot?]. You cannot be a conscious Christian without St. Paul. He translated the teachings of Christ into a doctrinal structure that, even with the additions of a vast number of thinkers, theologians and pastors, has resisted and still exists after two thousand years. Then there are Augustine, Benedict and Thomas and Ignatius. Naturally Francis. Do I need to explain why?” - www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/10/01/news/pope_s_conversation_with_scalfari_english-67643118/

But thank God, Jesus revealed to us (thru Paul and Peter) that there ain't no pope...

Not that of Rome for sure. Peter was the non-assertive brethren-type leader among the 12, (Jn. 21:15-17; Acts 1:15ff) and the first one to use the keys to the kingdom by preaching the gospel (Acts 2:14ff) by which souls are translated into it, (Col. 1:13) and first pastor of the first assembly, with almighty God affirming him and the apostles by over supernatural attestation. (Acts 5:1-16). And who can be seen exercising a general pastoral role. (1Pt. 1:1; 5:1)

But the Peter is Scripture is in stark contrast to the manner of men and their doctrines of Rome, while the NT does not substantiate a successor to Peter, and certainly not the Roman version.

Peter he never claimed to be more than "an elder," and a "servant and an apostle," nor claim assured infallibility as per Rome's pontifical formula, and instead he and the apostles established their truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39, 14:11; Acts 17:2,11; Rm. 15:19; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

He and other apostles preached to convict men of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment in such a way that conversions took place in the same hour as they were preached, based upon repentant faith, which baptism expresses. (Acts 2:38; 10:43-47)

In contrast is infant sprinkling upon proxy faith, which souls cannot obey the stated requirements for baptism, that of repentance and whole-hearted faith, (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) and which is by immersion, or the weeks of indoctrination for converts to be baptized, about the power of the church, which saves one via the act of baptism, making one actually holy enough inside to be declared just, and who at the end (typically) must become good enough to enter Heaven thru an indeterminate time in purgatory, which Peter also did not preach on.

Nor did he or anyone ever teach or example praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord.

Or of a separate class of believers called “saints,” or the mention of the postmortem location of the saints being in purgatory versus with the Lord. (Lk. 24:43; 2Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) Or of indulgences.

Or of a clergy that differentiated between bishops and elders, and with grand titles ("Most Reverend Eminence," “Very Reverend,” “Most Illustrious and Most Reverend Lord,” “His Eminence Cardinal,” “The Most Reverend the Archbishop,” etc.) and also made distinct by their ostentatious pompous garb. (Matthew 23:5-7)

Nor did he teach or example popes enthroned like a Caesar, with his subjects bowing down to him and kissing his feet." for "as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Or support required (with rare exceptions) clerical celibacy, which presumes all such have that gift.

Or of a church that conformed to this world in using papal sanctioned physical oppression and torture, burning and death to deal with theological dissent.

Or who, having lost that power, treats notorious manifestly impenitent public sinners as members in life and in death, in contrast to the NT means of disfellowship and spiritual discipline.

Or laws that greatly restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity, if able and available.

Or a church that sanctions teaching millions such things as that OT miraculous stories are fables or folktales, and that some historical accounts may not be literally accurate (sermon on the mount, etc.)

Being married and preaching a simple gospel message of repentance and faith, (Acts 10:34-43; 15:7-9) as a simple man, he was more evangelical than Catholic.

[Elsie]

Any argument is far more convincing when it is accurate, and I’m sure you want to be accurate in your quotes of Scripture.

Oh, sure.

But I was not the one who TRANSLATED the Greek into English, and seemingly LOST the 'true' meaning of the word.

[Elsie]

[count-your-change]

Then whose translation of vs. 19 were you using that they did not know the proper person of the verb? There was no lose of meaning if one takes advantage of the many resources freely available to us.

Do you know the difference? Thee, thou, you, you and you?
If I error explain where.

[smvoice]

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