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What Is the LDS Standard For Discerning Between Spirits? [Smith: 'some revelations of the devil']
ilovemormons ^ | Oct. 26, 2008 | Jessica

Posted on 10/26/2013 4:56:26 AM PDT by Colofornian

I have recently been in conversation with some LDS bloggers on the topic of modern revelation. One of the bloggers expressed concern when I brought up the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light. He pointed out that if this were true how could anyone be sure that their personal revelations were of God?

He expressed precisely the concern that evangelicals have regarding the place of revelation in LDS theology. The contention of evangelicals has consistently been that modern revelation should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we believe it is coming from another source since the Bible warns us not to receive “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (Gal. 1:6-9, II Cor. 11:3) and we are told that Satan will try to counterfeit the true.

“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Joseph Smith knew about revelations from another source. When a prophecy he made didn’t come true, he returned to his seer stone to seek another revelation and was told “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, chapter 4). I happen to agree with this revelation (whatever source it came from) because it lines up with what we are taught in the Bible which is my standard for discerning truth from error / God from Satan.

The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9)

For this reason, I don’t rely on feelings for a standard of discerning truth since my heart can deceive me. I trust Christ’s promise that He would preserve His words and I take His example that He never questioned the reliability of the OT scriptures when He was on earth, but He treated them as true, factual history and authoritative. Some LDS have told me that they use the Bible for their standard or that they don’t see a contradiction between the Bible and modern revelations so I will list a few examples of what I am talking about here and hopefully get some responses from LDS on how they reconcile what appear to me as diametrically opposed theology.

For example, the Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)

BoM: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)

The Bible: “And He said unto me, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9)

BoM: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” (Moroni 10:32)

The Bible: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8)

BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)

The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5)

Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).

What are the “works of the gospel” according to Jesus?

“Then they said unto Him, ‘What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent’” (John 6:29)

***Note: Before someone responds with James 2, I am not saying we can claim to have faith and then not manifest the works that should accompany true faith. James was written to address this specific problem as people were claiming the name of Christ, but in their works they denied Him.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; inman; lds; mormonism; sataniccounterfeit; spiritsdiscernment
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From the blog:

One of the bloggers expressed concern when I brought up the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light. He pointed out that if this were true how could anyone be sure that their personal revelations were of God? He expressed precisely the concern that evangelicals have regarding the place of revelation in LDS theology. The contention of evangelicals has consistently been that modern revelation should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we believe it is coming from another source since the Bible warns us not to receive “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (Gal. 1:6-9, II Cor. 11:3) and
Cont'd:

we are told that Satan will try to counterfeit the true. “Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). Joseph Smith knew about revelations from another source. When a prophecy he made didn’t come true, he returned to his seer stone to seek another revelation and was told “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, chapter 4)

.


Cont'd: I happen to agree with this revelation (whatever source it came from) because it lines up with what we are taught in the Bible which is my standard for discerning truth from error / God from Satan.

1 posted on 10/26/2013 4:56:26 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the blog:

For this reason, I don’t rely on feelings for a standard of discerning truth since my heart can deceive me. I trust Christ’s promise that He would preserve His words and I take His example that He never questioned the reliability of the OT scriptures when He was on earth, but He treated them as true, factual history and authoritative. Some LDS have told me that they use the Bible for their standard or that they don’t see a contradiction between the Bible and modern revelations so I will list a few examples of what I am talking about here and hopefully get some responses from LDS on how they reconcile what appear to me as diametrically opposed theology.

Cont'd (each of these following graphs compares the Biblical Gospel to the counterfeit Mormon 'gospel'):

For example, the Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9) BoM: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)

Cont'd:

The Bible: “And He said unto me, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9) BoM: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” (Moroni 10:32)

Cont'd: The Bible: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8) BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)

Cont'd:

The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5) Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207). What are the “works of the gospel” according to Jesus? “Then they said unto Him, ‘What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent’” (John 6:29)

2 posted on 10/26/2013 4:59:25 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
This is a continuation of: The OTHER World Series:

In case you missed this week's The OTHER World Series threads, here they are!

* Reviews [The OTHER World Series: 'The eyes of the dead are upon us' - ex-LDS 'prophet']
* Teachings Concerning The Spirit World [Lds: 'unseen...visitors'...from 'world beyond' close]
* Interesting Similarities between Mormonism and Spirit Release Therapy [The OTHER World Series...]
* Do Mormons Believe in Ghosts? [The OTHER World Series: 'spirits...not far from us']
* Opinion: Mormon zombies are hard to find — is Halloween fit for LDS? [The OTHER World Series]
* Is "Ghost Hunters" host Grant Wilson a member? [of the Mormon church? Yes]
* 25 years ago today - 1988 Oct.1 [Lds complete 100 million endowments for the dead in temples]

3 posted on 10/26/2013 5:01:32 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
Re: discernment of spirits...how do we know that Mormonism's origins were on the "wacky" side?

If you click on this link -- thread posted 2 years ago -- you can read on what is regarded as Lds "scripture" that you can discern between spirits based upon...
...[drum roll please]...
...handshakes...
...that's right...
...handshakes...
...[as if spirits all had readily available hands to shake]...

Mormon Doctrine on Shaking Hands With Spirits [The Other World Series]

4 posted on 10/26/2013 5:41:54 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
... the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light.

Why... EVERYONE knows that you SHAKE THEIR HAND!!!


 Doctrine and Covenants       Section 129

 
Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones;
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear;
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

       Joseph Smith

5 posted on 10/26/2013 6:03:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

I read this for myself once in the BoM... I was just browsing...

The test was to offer your hand to be shaken by the spirit you were testing.

If the spirit accepted the shake (offered his own hand in response) then he must be from the devil.
If he refused to shake your hand, he was from God.

I was amazed.... I attempted to use this passage to undermine an LDS follower’s faith in the BoM as God’s Word.
I thought that simple logic, and the idiocy of this passage would be helpful in exposing the truth to this person.

I was wrong.

This along with other similar encounters is what led me to realize that there is a spiritual blindness the far exceeds logic and reason.


6 posted on 10/26/2013 6:12:34 AM PDT by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Safrguns

Ok... so i might have remembered it backwards... either way same thing.


7 posted on 10/26/2013 6:13:50 AM PDT by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Safrguns

The Mormons are something else...and not good.


8 posted on 10/26/2013 6:33:43 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Colofornian

From the B of M ....Moroni 10:5 And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things.
I personally have had this experience, of the confirmation of the Holy Spirit within me, 2 times in my life. there is NO mistaking it ... it isn’t like making ones self feel good, or not even like being caught up in a moment of mass hysteria ..... totally different. And very personal. To have another spirit within you, and it being a spirit of LOVE, is a gift available to all who believe, and a ‘life-changing’ event. I would suggest you try this, if your faith is real, and you are sincere.


9 posted on 10/26/2013 6:57:33 AM PDT by Molan Labe
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To: Molan Labe; Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla; ...
I personally have had this experience, of the confirmation of the Holy Spirit within me, 2 times in my life.

Quoting your "experience", "To have another spirit within you, and it being a spirit of LOVE, is a gift available to all who believe, and a ‘life-changing’ event. I would suggest you try this, if your faith is real, and you are sincere"

And, what prompted this "experience"? Did you pray for confirmation of the truth of the book of mormon?

WHY did you "invite" the invasion of your body by a spirit, and how do you know that the spirit was not an evil one?

10 posted on 10/26/2013 7:42:51 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (We can thank Mitt Romney for the present situation in our country. His feet are made of clay.)
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To: Colofornian

People have been adding to the word of God since Eve. No good can ever come of it. The “prophet” J.S. was an egregious example of it.


11 posted on 10/26/2013 8:03:00 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (_.. ._. .. _. _._ __ ___ ._. . ___ ..._ ._ ._.. _ .. _. .)
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To: Molan Labe

“To have another spirit within you, and it being a spirit of LOVE, is a gift available to all who believe, and a ‘life-changing’ event. I would suggest you try this, if your faith is real, and you are sincere.”

I’m sorry, but we mortals are fallible creatures and easily deceived. We can very easily delude each other and ourselves. So, I don’t see any reason that an evil spirit couldn’t make us feel euphoric or ecstatic, in order to deceive us.

That’s why the Bible never tells us to trust our feelings when it comes to spirits. We must use our rational minds to compare the fruits of those spirits, in word and deed, with the standards God has provided us. We can trust that those standards are true, so the best way to minimize deception is to sincerely apply them.


12 posted on 10/26/2013 10:20:56 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Molan Labe

It is telling you had to post the Mormonic Verses, since it is not found in the Bible.


13 posted on 10/26/2013 10:36:41 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: Molan Labe

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


14 posted on 10/26/2013 11:11:59 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Molan Labe

I prayed about the BofM and God spoke to my heart - He said RUN run away from this blasphemy


15 posted on 10/26/2013 6:54:37 PM PDT by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains' obama's America)
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To: Colofornian
BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)

The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5)

Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).

Spencer W. Kimball was 100% correct. It is by the grace of Jesus of Christ that we are saved. But, we have to qualify for that grace.

Matt 12: 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

This is repeated over and over in the books of the Bible. Argue it all day long, but you can't get around it.
16 posted on 10/27/2013 10:45:20 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper
But, we have to qualify for that grace.


Oh???


Like THIS???

HR>

What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 
 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224


17 posted on 10/27/2013 11:07:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Molan Labe
I would suggest you try this, if your faith is real, and you are sincere.


 

Deconstructing Linus: Portrait of a True Believing Pumpkinist as a Young Man

What does the Great Pumpkin offer Linus? Why does Linus spend every Halloween in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear? Is it about the toys?

"Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."

No. This is about sincerity, a subjective standard by any definition.

I wonder if Linus blames himself every year for not picking the most sincere pumpkin patch for his vigil?

I wonder if other Great Pumpkinists castigate Linus by asserting if he were more in tune with the Spirit of the Great Pumpkin, if he were more prayerful, if he read the Holy Writ of the Great Pumpkin with a greater sincerity, that he could indeed rise to the challenge and, via the Spirit, be lead to choose the most sincere pumpkin patch?

I wonder how many years Linus will feel guilty for this failure and blame himself for receiving no answer no matter how sincere he believes himself to be?

I wonder if Linus ever gets frustrated because there is no objective way to measure sincerity? And if he realizes there is no objective standard for such a thing, I wonder if it ever creeps into his mind that his annual mission is nothing more than mindless busywork?

I wonder, does Linus ever has doubts?

For the time being, however, Linus will put aside his doubts and, perhaps as a means of proving his sincerity, begins to proselyte among his friends for converts. Most shrug him off. But Sally, who has a crush on him, believes Linus and agrees to spend Halloween in Linus’ Pumpkin Patch.

Linus then explains that by using positive language and positive thinking, they may be able to attract the Great Pumpkin to their Patch. He also cautions Sally that negative language and negative thinking will cause the Great Pumpkin to pass them by.

There is no room for doubt when one is a Great Pumpkinist. One should never say if the Great Pumpkin comes but always when the Great Pumpkin comes. "One little slip like that, can cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" It’s hard to imagine a benevolent icon such as the Great Pumpkin punishing TBPs (True Believing Pumkinists) for such a minor infraction, but there you have it.


Sally: The Birth of an Ex-Pumpkinist

Because Sally loves her “sweet baboo” Linus, she sets aside her own Halloween plans of trick-or-treating and a Halloween party in order to spend the evening in the Pumpkin Patch. She converts to Great Pumpkinism because she loves Linus. She respects his opinion. And she wants to make him happy and be supportive. And besides, if it’s really true, WOW! Wouldn’t that be fantastic?

But in the end, the only Being that shows up in the Pumpkin Patch is Snoopy. Linus, believing Snoopy to be the Great Pumpkin, swoons into an ecstatic faint, happy in the knowledge that he has finally deciphered the Great Pumpkin’s standard for sincerity. But, alas, it is a misplaced hope, and when Linus regains consciousness, there is not only no Great Pumpkin there to reward him, there is one upset little girl.

"I was robbed! I spent the whole night waiting for the Great Pumpkin when I could have been out for tricks or treats! Halloween is over and I missed it! You blockhead! You kept me up all night waiting for the Great Pumpkin and all that came was a beagle!"

"I didn't get a chance to go out for tricks or treats! And it was all your fault! I'll sue! What a fool I was. And I could have had candy apples and gum! And cookies and money and all sorts of things! But no, I had to listen to you! You blockhead. What a fool I was. Trick or treats come only once a year. And I missed it by sitting in a pumpkin patch with a blockhead. You owe me restitution!"

Luckily for Sally, she only missed one Halloween. And though she is demanding restitution, because her participation was voluntary, she will never receive said restitution. She’ll simply have to accept the experience as one of life’s absurdities and move on.

However, one can hope that this experience has made Sally a more skeptical person, so that the next time she is presented with such fantastic claims, she’ll perhaps be inclined to do her research before committing any time, money or emotion.

After all, fantastic claims should be supported by fantastic evidence, right?

The question now becomes, has this experience made Linus a skeptic? After yet again not having his Pumpkin Patch recognized as sincere and after having endangered his friendship with Sally, will he continue to believe?

In spite of a complete and utter lack of evidence pointing to the existence of the Great Pumpkin, and a complete and utter lack of the Great Pumpkin’s Promise ever having been fulfilled, Linus is a True Believing Pumpkinist to the core. To even admit the possibility that he may be wrong would be to negate all those years of hard work and sincere belief. Linus simply cannot turn his back on his belief.

So if Linus doesn't become an ex-Pumpkinist, what is his strategy? Well, he’s going to keep on trying, isn't he?

"What do you mean, 'stupid'? Just wait until next year. I'll find a pumpkin patch, and I'll sit in that pumpkin patch and it'll be a sincere pumpkin patch, and the Great Pumpkin will come! Just you wait and see! I'll sit in that pumpkin patch, and I'll see the Great Pumpkin. Just wait until next year!"





18 posted on 10/27/2013 11:08:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu; Normandy; teppe; trebb

19 posted on 10/27/2013 11:12:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
[aMorePerfectUnion]It is telling you had to post the Mormonic Verses, since it is not found in the Bible.

I find it odd that you think everything has to be found in the Bible, when it clearly is not.

John 3 1:
13 I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee:

14 But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.

There are obviously many things that were important but were never written down.


20 posted on 10/27/2013 11:15:09 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper

“I find it odd that you think everything has to be found in the Bible, when it clearly is not.”

The Bible has EVERYTHING necessary for salvation and Christian maturity, as it states.

“There are obviously many things that were important but were never written down. “

First, your use of the Mormonic Verses to justify a non-biblical practice is not strengthened by saying not everything wasn’t written down.

EVERYTHING essential for salvation and maturity and Church practice was written down.

No where in Scripture do we find the mormonic practice of avoiding truth in order to justify a cultic faith based entirely on feelings.


21 posted on 10/27/2013 11:30:10 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: Elsie
Oh???

Are you sure that's all the spam you want to post at me LC? *chuckle*

Every source you quoted is 100% correct. Thanks for posting it.

Btw, I'm sure the children of Israel called Moses "a savior". Not to be confused with "The Savior" but "a savior" none the less.
22 posted on 10/27/2013 11:33:24 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
The Bible has EVERYTHING necessary for salvation and Christian maturity, as it states.

It makes no such claims nor can it make any such claim. The writers weren't creating a larger instruction manual called "the Bible".

First, your use of the Mormonic Verses to justify a non-biblical practice is not strengthened by saying not everything wasn’t written down.

"Mormonic" ... really?... really?

well..it wasn't written down.

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

3 John 1
13 I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen awrite unto thee:
14 But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name.


23 posted on 10/27/2013 12:06:50 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper

“The Bible has EVERYTHING necessary for salvation and Christian maturity, as it states.”

“It makes no such claims nor can it make any such claim.”

..........................................................

Everything necessary for Salvation is in the Holy Scriptures - one example:

I John 5:13 - “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Everything necessary for Spiritual Maturity is in the Holy Scriptures - one example:

II Timothy 3:16, 17 - “Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.”

What is NOT in the Holy Scriptures is everything mormonic. No mormonic temples, no magic underroos, no eternal marriage, no created multiple gods, no sex in the skies, no spirit kids, no planet of your own, no sealing, nothing of cultic mormonism.

All truth is not contained in the Bible. God’s general revelation in nature, for example. But what is in the Scriptures is everything He deemed necessary for salvation and maturity.


24 posted on 10/27/2013 12:48:41 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: StormPrepper; All
we have to qualify for that grace.

ALL: Here's a Mormon turning the very meaning of the word "grace" -- something that is given -- on its head by claiming we have to earn, work for, merit, etc.

It's disgusting.

25 posted on 10/27/2013 5:20:49 PM PDT by Colofornian
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Molan Labe

This Spirit didn’t happen to tell you where the Nephites actually lived, did it?


27 posted on 10/28/2013 4:19:02 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: StormPrepper

Qualify for grace?

Um...

No...

Grace is a gift freely given...


28 posted on 10/28/2013 4:21:26 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: StormPrepper

But the BoM was written down...

So...


29 posted on 10/28/2013 4:22:23 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: StormPrepper

Again, the BoM is written down in pen and ink.

What was your last Freep handle.


30 posted on 10/28/2013 4:24:10 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: StormPrepper
Btw, I'm sure the children of Israel called Moses "a savior".

I admire your assuredness; but as a skeptical individual; I'd much prefer some evidence.

Mormonism is a heresy.

31 posted on 10/28/2013 5:27:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: StormPrepper
Are you sure that's all the spam you want to post at me LC?

So 100% true quotes are to be dismissed as SPAM and not addressed?

Well; that'll make the REST of my work here quite easy!

32 posted on 10/28/2013 5:29:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: StormPrepper
well..it wasn't written down.

I guess we'll just have to deal with things that ARE 'written down'; won't we?



"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




33 posted on 10/28/2013 5:31:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
This Spirit didn’t happen to tell you where the Nephites actually lived, did it?

Some 'spirit' sure told where a bunch of them DIED.

Does THAT count??

34 posted on 10/28/2013 5:32:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: StormPrepper
StormPrepper hasn't created an about page.

Not much of a 'prepper'...

35 posted on 10/28/2013 5:33:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22; StormPrepper; Stourme
What was your last Freep handle.

StormPrepper used to go by "Stourme"

36 posted on 10/28/2013 6:32:05 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: Alex Murphy

I wish I could get my old alias back... but the email account it was attached to doesn’t exist now, so I can’t reset the password.

Although several people have used the handle “Stourme” in online games and other places... I’m the original...first person to use it on the internet. So I’m a little down at not being able to use it.


37 posted on 10/28/2013 10:40:47 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: Elsie
So 100% true quotes are to be dismissed as SPAM and not addressed?

LC... Really?

When you have something thoughtful to say, I'll be happy to address it.

But when you post two pages of cut and paste jobs with no meaningful commentary... IMO that's not a discussion...that's called bait. So I just scroll passed it all, especially the snark...
38 posted on 10/28/2013 5:03:22 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: StormPrepper; Elsie
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

Every source you quoted is 100% correct. [posted by Elsie from LDS writings]

Interesting you describe it as spam, the teachings of the LDS belief system of which you appear to be a proud member.

So you have difficulty accepting the writings of the savior touted in Mormonism, Joseph Smith?

You gonna pass by him when you die? I think you most certainly will...

39 posted on 10/28/2013 9:02:10 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 to Mar 1, 2012)
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: StormPrepper
So you are saying the very words of you “prophets” of you holy books are meaningless?
41 posted on 10/28/2013 10:39:02 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: StormPrepper
IMO that's not a discussion...

So; I'm not harmed a bit if you refuse to deal with MORMON history.

I've placed it here for EVERHYONE to read - not just you.

42 posted on 10/29/2013 3:58:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
So; I'm not harmed a bit if you refuse to deal with MORMON history.

I've placed it here for EVERHYONE to read - not just you.

Sorry LC, but most of the stuff you post is just clutter. Most people just scroll past it. There's tons of places on the internet to find cut and paste jobs if we want that kind of thing.

If you'd like to pick a subject and actually discuss it, I'll be happy to respond to you. Maybe we could discuss something from your church too.

And...which church do you belong to again?

-Stourme
43 posted on 10/29/2013 7:50:23 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: Syncro
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

Yep. 100% true.

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

Yep. 100% true.
Jesus Himself has decreed that no matter what you claim to believe, if you reject the servant you reject the master who sent him. If you reject the true prophets of God you will never enter the kingdom of God who sent the prophets.

Every source you quoted is 100% correct. [posted by Elsie from LDS writings]

Interesting you describe it as spam, the teachings of the LDS belief system of which you appear to be a proud member.

...really? Try to imagine that I was describing the way it was posted and not the writing themselves.

So you have difficulty accepting the writings of the savior touted in Mormonism, Joseph Smith?

I've often wondered what it must have been like for the apostles that traveled with Jesus to watch the Pharisees try to trick Jesus up with stupid logic. Have you ever wondered that?

You gonna pass by him when you die? I think you most certainly will...

With all my heart I hope I do. BTW, do you have a problem with Peter standing guard at the pearly gates?
44 posted on 10/29/2013 8:11:51 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: ejonesie22
So you are saying the very words of you “prophets” of you holy books are meaningless?

A little context would be helpful. Thanks!

-Stourme
45 posted on 10/29/2013 8:13:28 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: Elsie
Why... EVERYONE knows that you SHAKE THEIR HAND!!!

Ya know when I first read that some 30yrs ago, I was totally blown away. Makes perfect sense. And something so simple too.

An evil spirit has no truth in them and will try to deceive you by shaking your hand but you won't feel it. It's brilliant.

D&C 129 shows great wisdom, don't you agree?

Thanks for sharing!

-Stourme
46 posted on 10/29/2013 8:20:44 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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THX 1138


47 posted on 10/29/2013 8:38:41 AM PDT by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains' obama's America)
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To: Boogieman
I’m sorry, but we mortals are fallible creatures and easily deceived. We can very easily delude each other and ourselves. So, I don’t see any reason that an evil spirit couldn’t make us feel euphoric or ecstatic, in order to deceive us.

Because there are eternal laws at play here. An evil spirit can not make us feel joy. Nor can it commune with our spirit. Nor can an evil spirit intrude on prayers to God.

An evil spirit cannot teach us truth or bring peace.

If you want to see a real example of an evil spirit, you can find real examples in "Revival meetings". Where people think they are speaking in tongues, but really it's just gibberish. Or when they roll around on the ground uncontrollably. That's what an evil spirit does.

Matt 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

If you're sincerely praying to God, the devil has no power to intrude on that, nor can he hear your thoughts.

The Holy Ghost brings peace to our spirit. It teaches and testifies of truth. It never tries to control us. Big difference.
48 posted on 10/29/2013 8:43:13 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: Elsie

49 posted on 10/29/2013 8:51:38 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: Safrguns; All
I read this for myself once in the BoM... I was just browsing...

Strange...especially since this isn't in the Book of Mormon.

I was amazed.... I attempted to use this passage to undermine an LDS follower’s faith in the BoM as God’s Word.
I thought that simple logic, and the idiocy of this passage would be helpful in exposing the truth to this person.


Really?? You tried using this passage from the Book of Mormon? Really? Hmmm I bet that was an interesting conversation. Was that the one in 5 Nephi 147: 16?

I was wrong.

NOOOO!!!! I'm shocked!!

This along with other similar encounters is what led me to realize that there is a spiritual blindness the far exceeds logic and reason.

Hey me too!! Spiritual blindness and definitely lacking in a whole lot of truth! LOL!

*chuckle
50 posted on 10/29/2013 8:56:14 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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