What Is the LDS Standard For Discerning Between Spirits? [Smith: 'some revelations of the devil']

ilovemormons ^ | Oct. 26, 2008 | Jessica

[Colofornian]

I have recently been in conversation with some LDS bloggers on the topic of modern revelation. One of the bloggers expressed concern when I brought up the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light. He pointed out that if this were true how could anyone be sure that their personal revelations were of God?

He expressed precisely the concern that evangelicals have regarding the place of revelation in LDS theology. The contention of evangelicals has consistently been that modern revelation should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we believe it is coming from another source since the Bible warns us not to receive “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (Gal. 1:6-9, II Cor. 11:3) and we are told that Satan will try to counterfeit the true.

“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Joseph Smith knew about revelations from another source. When a prophecy he made didn’t come true, he returned to his seer stone to seek another revelation and was told “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, chapter 4). I happen to agree with this revelation (whatever source it came from) because it lines up with what we are taught in the Bible which is my standard for discerning truth from error / God from Satan.

The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9)

For this reason, I don’t rely on feelings for a standard of discerning truth since my heart can deceive me. I trust Christ’s promise that He would preserve His words and I take His example that He never questioned the reliability of the OT scriptures when He was on earth, but He treated them as true, factual history and authoritative. Some LDS have told me that they use the Bible for their standard or that they don’t see a contradiction between the Bible and modern revelations so I will list a few examples of what I am talking about here and hopefully get some responses from LDS on how they reconcile what appear to me as diametrically opposed theology.

For example, the Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)

BoM: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)

The Bible: “And He said unto me, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9)

BoM: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” (Moroni 10:32)

The Bible: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8)

BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)

The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5)

Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).

What are the “works of the gospel” according to Jesus?

“Then they said unto Him, ‘What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent’” (John 6:29)

***Note: Before someone responds with James 2, I am not saying we can claim to have faith and then not manifest the works that should accompany true faith. James was written to address this specific problem as people were claiming the name of Christ, but in their works they denied Him.

[ejonesie22]

So you are saying the very words of you “prophets” of you holy books are meaningless?

[Elsie]

IMO that's not a discussion...

So; I'm not harmed a bit if you refuse to deal with MORMON history.

I've placed it here for EVERHYONE to read - not just you.

[StormPrepper]

So; I'm not harmed a bit if you refuse to deal with MORMON history.

I've placed it here for EVERHYONE to read - not just you.

Sorry LC, but most of the stuff you post is just clutter. Most people just scroll past it. There's tons of places on the internet to find cut and paste jobs if we want that kind of thing.

If you'd like to pick a subject and actually discuss it, I'll be happy to respond to you. Maybe we could discuss something from your church too.

And...which church do you belong to again?

-Stourme

[StormPrepper]

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

Yep. 100% true.

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

Yep. 100% true.
Jesus Himself has decreed that no matter what you claim to believe, if you reject the servant you reject the master who sent him. If you reject the true prophets of God you will never enter the kingdom of God who sent the prophets.

Every source you quoted is 100% correct. [posted by Elsie from LDS writings]

Interesting you describe it as spam, the teachings of the LDS belief system of which you appear to be a proud member.

...really? Try to imagine that I was describing the way it was posted and not the writing themselves.

So you have difficulty accepting the writings of the savior touted in Mormonism, Joseph Smith?

I've often wondered what it must have been like for the apostles that traveled with Jesus to watch the Pharisees try to trick Jesus up with stupid logic. Have you ever wondered that?

You gonna pass by him when you die? I think you most certainly will...

With all my heart I hope I do. BTW, do you have a problem with Peter standing guard at the pearly gates?

[StormPrepper]

So you are saying the very words of you “prophets” of you holy books are meaningless?

A little context would be helpful. Thanks!

-Stourme

[StormPrepper]

Why... EVERYONE knows that you SHAKE THEIR HAND!!!

Ya know when I first read that some 30yrs ago, I was totally blown away. Makes perfect sense. And something so simple too.

An evil spirit has no truth in them and will try to deceive you by shaking your hand but you won't feel it. It's brilliant.

D&C 129 shows great wisdom, don't you agree?

Thanks for sharing!

-Stourme

[svcw]

THX 1138

[StormPrepper]

I’m sorry, but we mortals are fallible creatures and easily deceived. We can very easily delude each other and ourselves. So, I don’t see any reason that an evil spirit couldn’t make us feel euphoric or ecstatic, in order to deceive us.

Because there are eternal laws at play here. An evil spirit can not make us feel joy. Nor can it commune with our spirit. Nor can an evil spirit intrude on prayers to God.

An evil spirit cannot teach us truth or bring peace.

If you want to see a real example of an evil spirit, you can find real examples in "Revival meetings". Where people think they are speaking in tongues, but really it's just gibberish. Or when they roll around on the ground uncontrollably. That's what an evil spirit does.

Matt 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

If you're sincerely praying to God, the devil has no power to intrude on that, nor can he hear your thoughts.

The Holy Ghost brings peace to our spirit. It teaches and testifies of truth. It never tries to control us. Big difference.

[Utah Binger]

[StormPrepper]

I read this for myself once in the BoM... I was just browsing...

Strange...especially since this isn't in the Book of Mormon.

I was amazed.... I attempted to use this passage to undermine an LDS follower’s faith in the BoM as God’s Word.
I thought that simple logic, and the idiocy of this passage would be helpful in exposing the truth to this person.

Really?? You tried using this passage from the Book of Mormon? Really? Hmmm I bet that was an interesting conversation. Was that the one in 5 Nephi 147: 16?

I was wrong.

NOOOO!!!! I'm shocked!!

This along with other similar encounters is what led me to realize that there is a spiritual blindness the far exceeds logic and reason.

Hey me too!! Spiritual blindness and definitely lacking in a whole lot of truth! LOL!

*chuckle

[Boogieman]

“Because there are eternal laws at play here. An evil spirit can not make us feel joy. Nor can it commune with our spirit. Nor can an evil spirit intrude on prayers to God.

An evil spirit cannot teach us truth or bring peace.”

Where exactly are these “eternal laws” spelled out?

[StormPrepper]

The Mormons are something else...and not good.

So I'm just a big fuzzy ball of evil is that right?

Grab the pitchforks boys!!

[colorcountry]

You are right boogieman and it calls to mind the question; If evil spirits tempt us, wouldnt’t they do it with false feelings of joy, warm and fuzzy feelings?

No (says StormPrepper)...Evil always makes us feel icky and horrible - that is why so many people fall victim to it - Evil would never deceive our feeeeelings.... < /sarc>

[colorcountry]

So I'm just a big fuzzy ball of evil is that right? Grab the pitchforks boys!!

See, my FRiend. This is where Mormons go horribly wrong. Yes, you are evil and full of sin - and so am I and every single individual on earth. That is why we need a Savior.

(Oh, I forgot, Mormons think they're perfect) ...snort!

[StormPrepper]

No (says StormPrepper)...Evil always makes us feel icky and horrible - that is why so many people fall victim to it - Evil would never deceive our feeeeelings.... < /sarc>

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Yes, God communicates to us through our feelings. He touches our hearts and we feel joy. We must feel it in our hearts before we can be truly converted.

[colorcountry]

In biblical times, the heart was not the seat of feeling, but of understanding (see your quoted verse). No one (except Mormons) equates feelings with understanding.

[StormPrepper]

Where exactly are these “eternal laws” spelled out?

Section 76 of the D&C

Here's a good place to start.

Many through out the old and New Testaments.

The sermon on the mount is another good place to go.

Moroni 8:
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn amockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

The Book of Mormon is pretty clear on a lot of it.

[ejonesie22]

Of course it would.

You said what Elsie posts was meaningless. He post quotes from your “prophets” and from the BoM...

Now that you have context...

[SZonian]

So what is the “...will of my Father...”?

John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Besides, argue the Book of Abraham and the false interpretation thereof all day long, you still can’t get around it.

A false prophecy makes a false prophet.

[StormPrepper]

Acts 17:27
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Ephesians 4:19
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

1 Tim 4:2
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Seared, so they can no longer feel the Spirit. Being Christ like means you feel and if you have faith in Christ you can't be deceived.