Posted on 11/16/2013 12:00:15 AM PST by GonzoII
I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but given your post and the "What's Your Story?" challenge of the title, I'm ignoring the call to walk away. Instead, let me first apologize for my looooong winded answer.
Perhaps like you, at various times in life, I've asked God to reveal Himself. Actually, challenged Him to reveal Himself would be more accurate. Whatever happened on His end, I was oblivious to it.
During this last trials and tribulations period, I again asked once again, but this time I didn't have much ego left and it was from my heart. Honestly, I was thinking/hoping my answer would be dramatic, maybe a vision or a dream like Kirsten Powers, or an apparition...I dunno, something BIG!
What I got instead was a book list that started with my being compelled to read The Harbinger: The Ancient Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future. That may sound crazy, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
As background, my faith and understanding came via osmosis of having grown up in the buckle of the 1960s Bible belt South, from atheist/agnostic parents, the hearsay of others, TV preachers, but mostly from watching the “faithful and true believers” other six days of behavior.
As such, to me the Bible was just a book of inspirational stories and fables I'd not read, but heard about. I was respectfully indifferent. Since my youth, I've even been called to church several different times in life, but my soil was rocky and what grew quickly, just as quickly withered and died.
I’ve never been a “church-y” kinda guy, so whatever my belief might be, and no matter what life has thrown at me, I still wasn’t finding what I was looking for in church with the constantly bickering catholic and protestants, nor with the orthodox I knew nothing about, nor with the many spiritual flavors of the New Age. I tend to be a bit hostile to evangelical aggression against me, no matter how well intended.
When I read The Harbinger, I was I guess what you might call crawling out from under the wreckage and recovering after living through one of those "trials and tribulations" periods life can be good for. Worst one for me yet, with lots of losses, family, friends, business, etc. Plus a couple of big hits, like the last one from the car that ran the light and turned my view of the matrix we live in quite surreal for a while. You get the idea. I won't go into the details. Blah, blah blah...boring.
I lucked into a new job, one that requires a lot of time analyzing finance, current events and societal trends along with history, in order to understand how people deal with and respond to the big events in their lives. I’m studying the history of value.
As this is a new job, maybe career, I'm playing catch up and trying to learn enough to gain some of the insights those who've been doing this for a while have. To that end, I'm turning over any rock or stone that looks out of place with my understanding, such as it is. The more I looked, the more I didn't understand, and some of what I found was profoundly disturbing. Opening the closet door of politics is like that, whether current or in the buried past. History indeed is told by the victors, just not all of it, as I am learning.
The sense that something was very wrong, a familiar feeling growing stronger by the day, was verified by my amateur research. I had more than a few sleepless nights pondering the direction of US and the world. I'll spare you the drama, but I was shaken and stirred, and the feeling that something is very wrong seemed much more than just a feeling. More like a warning. The weirdest thing was that only the "kooks" and "fringe" types, as determined by the media at large, were picking up on it. (Yikes, my poor head must have been hit harder than I thought.)
One day I hear a radio commercial for a book that spoke to all that I was feeling, and also seeing in my research. Now that got my attention! IIRC, the book promised to reveal the truth about what was happening, or something like that. I'm thinking "Yeah, right. Sure, whatever", but for some reason, my thoughts kept coming back to that commercial's promise. I felt strongly compelled to read it. (Great commercial! It got me to buy the book!) Another book was the last thing I was interested in, but I figured I'd been reading everything that wasn't fun, this might be a fun read, why not see what this book was about.
Amazon sent me a copy, but I confess to initially being less than hooked by the story, at least at first. None the less, I kept reading. Looking back, I'm not sure where it got me, but I soon found that I couldn't put it down. My father had recently passed and my sisters and I were each in turn staying with our elderly mother. Mom and I would hang out together. She watches TV and I read my Kindle. I'd be reading and suddenly say something out loud like "whoa" or "wow", often surprising my Mom, who'd want to know what that was for, but not really wanting to hear the explanation.
Each "whoa" or "wow" was for some new connection or clue or insight, often about something "right in front of me the entire time", but me without the eyes to see it, had been clueless about it. The Harbinger was both showing me what to see and giving me enough history, US and Biblical, and explanations to see what had been very blurry, if I had even been aware of it at all. Wow! Suddenly the Bible was an actual history book?!? Could that be? And the early American history I was learning, things I'd never heard in any school before, tied a lot of loose ends and bits and pieces of info together that I'd never been able to make complete sense of.
Ever the prodigal son, my understanding of life, what we are and why, was like a loose pile jigsaw puzzle pieces I'd found and collected along the road of life. I'd been fitting them together and had an idea of what the puzzle picture might be, at least parts of it, but not enough key pieces to "see" it. For me and my understanding at the time, The Harbinger was full of those key pieces. (What do you know? That commercial was true, after all. Hmmmm...)
When I finished it, I started giving it to friends and strangers. Seriously. I'd probably even send you a copy. For me and apparently a lot of others, it explains quite a lot about our situation, while also giving a lot of early American and Biblical history that I had never known before, maybe the same is true for you. It gave me info that helped turn the Bible from a book of motivational stories and fables into an actual history book.
Next I read the book Shocked by the Bible: The Most Astonishing Facts You've Never Been Told, which questions some things thought to be Christianity, but conflict with the Bible. It was also helpful for me and for tuning my thinking. So was Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels and its look at the Bible from an atheist homicide detective’s methodology and point of view.
I loved the Cayce stuff I read as a kid, probably as close as I got to Scripture and perhaps that material and the science fiction I read gave me a foundation for a child-like wonder about the supernatural. My Dad, an atheist, and I used to talk about death and what comes after. He thought the lights went out and that was that. I absolutely don't believe that, never have, but when he asked for proof, I couldn't give him anything he would accept. He said that no one had ever contacted us from the other side, like a few famous people of his day had promised to do after they died.
Armed with that knowledge and a long history of dealing with shysters in holy garments, he wouldn't accept my counters to "prove" otherwise. Looking back, no way would he have accepted The Harbinger as I have, but it might have opened a door via his curiosity. In his retirement he enjoyed learning about early American history and become more open to different opinions the older he got. He would have enjoyed this story and might have been receptive to its Biblical historical message and I would have enjoyed talking with him about it! Given my “understanding”, after he died I couldn't help but wonder about his experiences since "death" as a consequence of his beliefs and faith.
The Harbinger had turned something on inside of me. I went looking for more answers to my growing list of questions and was very receptive to the book My Descent into Death, a Second Chance at Life. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It is another book I've given away to anyone who'll accept a copy. (Same offer applies as before.)
It is the account of an atheist who dies and comes back with a near-death story to tell, but unlike many of the others you might have heard about or read, he doesn't see the light or have dead family or friends come to help him cross over. He goes to Hell or Purgatory (not sure which) instead. The experience totally transformed him and he is now a Pastor. I have spoken with someone in his church who says he's the real deal. How I wish I had known of this book and could have shared it with my Dad!
Next I read Heaven is for Real: A Little Boy's Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back, followed by Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife. Now I’d just read three books talking about the same thing, but from the totally different perspectives of an atheist, a child and a neurosurgeon. How I wish Dad was still here! (Dad, where are you now???)
Needless to say, I found these accounts beyond compelling and needed/wanted more! My next search lead me to the mother lode of what I was looking for: Vassula Ryden's book Heaven is Real But So is Hell: An Eyewitness Account of What is to Come and then to Jesus and His Messages in True Life in God: Divine Dialogue. (Same offer as before for both of these)
This book list has been an interesting answer to my prayer, but it all began with my being compelled to read The Harbinger. Most interesting thing about my "After" picture? I'm not scared, shaken or stirred any more, not like I was. No sleepless nights either. I sleep like a baby, even though I "know" that all the things that had me pooping little green apples and shaking like a leaf in a hurricane are as bad as I first thought. Weird, but cool.
Anyway, like I said, that's my story. I highly recommend reading The Harbinger and all of the books on my booklist answer to my “Show me” prayer/request, but, as with all things, YMMV.
And some liberal Prot churches have official conservative assertions. But such is not what Rome effectually teaches according got Scripture, as its states that 'I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18)
And what Rome really believes is shown by its works, in which for decades it has treated even notorious public sinners, who openly support abortion and homosexuality (like Teddy K) who are to be deprived of ecclesiastical funerals according to traditionalist interpretation of canon law, as members in life and in death.
For those that refuse to abide by the teachings of the Church, they need to get the hell out.
But you are not Rome which does not do what the Bible commands regarding such, while RCs want evangelicals to leave conservative churches that we joined in order to worship with them and separate from liberal churches and its Bible scholarship, and submit to Rome which even promotes the latter (such as in the RC NAB commentary). Besides have the doctrinal issues .
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a beautiful document ...
You mean the current one, while that itself is not infallible, and there is disagreement among RCs on what it means, such as what is required for Prots to be saved.
You have a serious, serious case of anti-Catholicism.
Anyone that thinks the Catholic Church, with it’s no abortion of any kind, no open homosexual clery, and no women ordination is a liberal organization needs a serious reality check.
Just like you have hypocrite protestants you have hypocrites that call themselves catholic. The only difference in the two is real simple. The Catholic Church actually has a structure and a heirachy. There is no one big Protestant Church. If you’re a protestant you are on your own church. Believe anything you feel like believing. Let no one tell you it’s wrong. It’s you and the Bible. Interpret it exactly how you see fit.
It is not the Catholic Church’s fault that there are hypocrites in the Church that will not live their life according to the VERY CONSERVATIVE doctrine of the Catholic Church.
And the Catholic Church is not in the business of excommunicating someone who believes in abortion, no more than any of the thousands of protestant churches will kick out pro-abortion members. 95% of blacks voted for Obama are a prime example. Almost every one of them will say they are against abortion and again queer “marriage”. Have you ever heard of a pastor standing at the door turning them away? I didn’t think so.
In the end you reap what you sew. Mock God and the Holy Bible and you will answer in the end. That’s all that really matters.
Protestants and Catholics. Some good. Some bad.
Which means i have exposed what is beyond the white wash of Roman profession.
Just like you have hypocrite protestants you have hypocrites that call themselves catholic.
But we can separate from them as Scripture commands, while you are stuck with being part of a church that treats even very liberal public Catholics as members, and which a majority are like.
In my church the pastor rails against abortion, homosexuality, and the gimme attitude which liberalism promotes, and see the President as one very liberal, while exalting God and the Trinity and salvation by a faith that effects obedience. Thank God for such.
The only difference in the two is real simple. The Catholic Church actually has a structure and a heirachy.
Which effectually teaches that being a liberal proabortion prohomosexual liberal does not excommunicate you, but that also long as you die a RC then you have good confidence of getting into glory someday thru her intercession.
Take the classic case of Kennedy and Roman Catholic funerals. Here was a man with a 100% rating from NARAL who defied the Pope, and who should be considered a schismatic, as his moral views were effectively a “withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff,” (Canon Law # 751) living in mortal sin as this FR article by a priest argues, and which should have caused a public scandal if the majority of RCs were not like him.
Instead, he showed no manifest repentance, including in his letter to the Pope which was read at his graveside. And in which letter Kennedy defended his wonderful works, including universal health care. Not a word of remorse about supporting abortion or promoting homosexual rights, or indolence and a welfare state.
In the pope's response there is no mention of any censure him at all, but instead, thru a senior Vatican official, he relayed that
"The Holy Father has read the letter which you entrusted to President Barack Obama, who kindly presented it to him during their recent meeting. His Holiness prays that in the days ahead you may be sustained in faith and hope, and granted the precious grace of joyful surrender to the will of God our merciful Father. He invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the Risen Savior to all who share in His sufferings and trust in His promise of eternal life. "
“He was saddened to know of your illness, and has asked me to assure you of his concern and his spiritual closeness. He is particularly grateful for your promise of prayers for him and for the needs of the universal Church."
"Commending you and the members of your family to the loving intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy Father cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of wisdom, comfort and strength in the Lord." "(http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/29/ted-kennedy-to-pope-benedict-i-am-writing-with-deep-humility/)
Sounds like everything was copacetic. However, if he had converted and become a very conservative evangelical, then i am sure real concern for his soul would have been expressed. Then, as with multitude others who affirm the same moral views, Kennedy was honored with an ecclesiastical funeral.
And with a homily which reportedly expressed, "the fruits of [Kennedy's] work in politics well-prepared him for God's kingdom," and "we are confident that Kennedy has entered into the new dwelling of God," while allowing a Protestant to give a euolgy, who even offered a prayer for Teddy's soul! (http://www.canonlaw.info/blogarch09.htm)
Justification offered for this is that Kennedy showed repentance by holding a private family Mass in the living room every Sunday, even while he supported his liberal agenda, which just evidences (contrary to Acts 26:20) how, like Pelosi, he thought he could have his cake and eat it too.
The like happens daily, with know liberals being treated as members, which the multitudes see, and interprets Rome''s official statements as meaning being this type of RC is not really not a big deal, and that Rome will see you thru. For the real gospel of Rome is one that fosters confidence in the church, and promotes her preeminence, not one in which produces real repentance and Biblical moral views. Thus she counts conservative evangelical Christianity as her greatest spiritual threat.
There is no one big Protestant Church.
And which is why your comparison is invalid, except as representing a kind of faith. A valid comparison must be btwn two churches. But broadly speaking, it is those churches which hold to the supremacy of Scripture as the wholly inspired and basically literal Word of God, and core truths as the Apostles Creed affirms, and have their members via personal evangelical conversion, which are most conservative.
In contrast is Rome, which operates under sola ecclesia, in which the Church magisterium is effectively the supreme authority, with interpretation thru lower levels. And look at the NAB notes even in the Vatican's copy of it as one example of even Bible interpretation.
. If you’re a protestant you are on your own church. Believe anything you feel like believing.
That is simply a convenient canard that ignores the fact that you cannot do so in such churches as i described, for as in my church, due to the preaching - which is not a 10 min sermonette - there is going to be real discomfort if even a nonmember is Obama supporter, and in addition, discipline of members who impenitently continue in known sins, as in 1Cor. 5.
Meanwhile, you have no infallible interpreter of your infallible interpreter, and which is done at lower levels, and by RCs themselves. And it is actually in the RCC that you can believe most anything you feel like believing. And in which you see various interpretations of Rome even on basic things, just as you see among liberal Protestants regarding the Bible and basic things. Yet without as central magisterium overall, evangelicals testify to greater unity overall in basic Biblical views and superior commitment.
It is not the Catholic Church’s fault that there are hypocrites in the Church that will not live their life according to the VERY CONSERVATIVE doctrine of the Catholic Church.
What? So it not the fault of conservative-professing parents of delinquent kids who fail to actually discipline them? You can to you believe in health food all you want, but if your kids live off McDonalds then you really believe something different.
And the Catholic Church is not in the business of excommunicating someone who believes in abortion,
You said it this time, not me.
no more than any of the thousands of protestant churches . 95% of blacks voted for Obama are a prime example. Almost every one of them will say they are against abortion and again queer “marriage”. Have you ever heard of a pastor standing at the door turning them away? I didn’t think so.
And so who is defending them? They seem to be institutionalized much like Rome, with membership being by perfunctory profession. Yet the reality is that we can separate from them while the church you would have us join makes us part of church of Ted Kennedy's.
Mock God and the Holy Bible and you will answer in the end. That’s all that really matters.
Exactly. And both the bodies and souls of men are in danger when men become the supreme infallible authority above Scripture.
And last but not least because you are incapable of leaving well enough alone. Like I have told others on FR unless you’re a Catholic you have no right at all telling Catholics what you think is wrong with the Catholic Church. To put it bluntly it’s none of your business. Tend to your faith, whatever it might be, or do you think you’re perfect in the eyes of God and the only people that are in need of criticism are those whacky Catholics that you love to put down? I don’t micro manage protestant faiths because I could care less what they believe, which is hundred thousand different things, that they all will argue is right. From women clergy to openly homosexual clergy to not speaking out on the evils of abortion, it’s all contained right there in thousands of protestant “churches”. Try criticising these hypocrites for a change. For defiantly mocking the Word of God and making it their official positions.
Those of us born, baptized, and raised Catholic DO know what’s wrong with Catholicism.
Not to mention that the hypocrisy displayed by the Catholic church does not take a degree in rocket science to see.
As far as judgments of what’s right and wrong, that’s where Scripture comes in. It’s the standard by which ALL churches and behavior can be measured and it’s easy to see where someone or some organization falls short.
Now, right there, that would be funny coming from a Catholic if it weren't so sad.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
More sex abuse cases in protestants faiths than the Catholic Church.
http://home.comcast.net/~rosses8/pedoph.html
So you have a greater understanding of scripture than 2,0000 years of theologians about that CATHOLIC document called the Holy Bible.
So you have a greater understanding of scripture than 2,000 years of theologians about that CATHOLIC document called the Holy Bible.
Scripture is not *Catholic*.
The OT was written by Jews. Virtually all the NT was written by Jews.
It was not written by Catholics, it was written by men of God as they were moved along by the Holy Spirit.
Compiling all the books of recognized Scripture into one handy source does not equate to *writing* the Bible nor does it give anyone claim to owning it or being the sole source of *correctly* interpreting it.
So even if your magisterium interprets it for you, who interprets the magisterium for you? Because the magisterium is just as capable of being misinterpreted as Scripture. And anyone who cannot correctly interpret Scripture cannot be trusted to correctly interpret the magisterium. So what infallible source interprets the infallible interpretation of the magisterium?
That is logical
Therefore will be lost on many.....
“The OT was written by Jews. Virtually all the NT was written by Jews”.
I never said “Catholics” wrote anything. I said the Catholic Church compiled the scriptures and working with the Holy Spirit decided what what would be divinely inspired and what would not be divinely inspired. You can deny those facts till the cows come home but it’s fact. No PROTESTANT determined a single line that is contained in the Holy Bible.
The Catholic Church came before the 4 Gospels in the NT, which brought Christ to the world.
Baloney, to put it nicely.....
Where would God be without the Catholic church to help Him along?
He just wouldn’t have been able to manage, would He?
Sure.
Don’t forget, He used a donkey to speak at one time, too.
No need for anyone to get all puffed up and take credit for the work of God.
Don’t buy it for one second.
But let’s just play along with this Papist argument for one second.
God used the Persians, Egyptians and various ‘ittes for His own purposes. Should we bow down to them?
Protestants didn’t exist when Catholics were compiling the Bible and your ancestors back them were all Catholics. It’s about time protestants start giving their ancestors some credit for bringing the Gospel to the world.
Amazing when some deny historical fact. Kind of reminds me of Bill Clinton saying “well it all depends on what the definition of is is”.
The Holy Spirit brought the gospel to the world.
Catholicism needs to take to heart the lesson in Acts 12.
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