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To: Iscool; Kackikat; Kandy Atz
These quotes from the Psalms are not connected to liturgy. They refer to worship OUTSIDE of the Temple.

Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical.

Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did. Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice, in accordance with commands from the Old Testament (Exodus 30:17-21, Psalm 26:6). Even the use of holy water at parish entrances has its roots in Judaism. Before entering the Temple, Jews were required to undergo immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath). And there's so much more!

The Book of Revelation outlines the Mass!
21 posted on 02/01/2014 4:14:29 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

Psalms 150 second line “Praise God In His Sanctuary”, and if his Temple is not his sanctuary then what is...We are the Sanctuary and no building will ever be the Sanctuary of God except in the people who come to worship there, so don’t think you know what God is, what he wants, and where he wants it. God is the same yesterday, to day and forever.
Mans Liturgy is NOT all there is, in fact it falls short of God’s intentions.

Jesus came to deliver us from the curse of the law. What law? The ceremonial law....Jesus was the Passover Lamb once and for all....the Old Testament no longer applies to us. So for all it’s pomp and circumstance, and I have no objection to whatever people want to practice as religion, but it has nothing to do with God’s Grace, and the HOLY SPIRIT and Salvation.


22 posted on 02/01/2014 4:30:18 PM PST by Kackikat
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To: matthewrobertolson
Seriously? You are arguing that the RCC is under the Law? That's not something to brag about - its ignorance of God's Word.

Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did. Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice, in accordance with commands from the Old Testament (Exodus 30:17-21, Psalm 26:6). Even the use of holy water at parish entrances has its roots in Judaism. Before entering the Temple, Jews were required to undergo immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath). And there's so much more!

Do you keep the ENTIRE Law? Do you circumcise? Do you keep all the food laws, all the sacrifices and offerings? Because if you miss it in even one area...

James 2:10 (AMP)

10 For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it.

Please read this carefully - Christians (those that place their faith in Jesus) have died to the law - it has no jurisdiction over the dead.

Galatians 2:19-20 (AMP)

19 For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ's death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law's demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God.

20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 3:24-25 (AMP)

24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.

25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).

Religious bondage is a fool's errand when God's Grace is freely and abundantly given. And besides...

Colossians 2:20-23 (AMP)

20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?—such as]

21 Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them],

22 Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines.

23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]

23 posted on 02/01/2014 5:27:14 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: matthewrobertolson; Iscool; daniel1212
"Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical."

??? Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did.???

Stone altars? Perhaps a bit more study of the OT in regards to those could be in order about now.

This holds significance.

Now let that sink in, for it is the word of God.

Then tell us;
Which temple altars to emulate? Those of Solomon's temple? Herod's perhaps? Where are those now? There are lessons there too, for one and all, for His words ring forever. Can you hear Him?

We are not called to renew what the Hebrews were directed to do as per animal sacrifice. That's not in the contract (Testament rather?) given to you or I (I take it you are not born a Hebrew?).

So what was that you were saying, again? oh, about "holy water" too. uh-huh. consecrated water, isn't it? Prayed over by a priest.

Well ok, but how about better, more significant and less RC priesthood "majic" would be to recall John's (The Baptist's) baptism, to help bring that fresher to mind (buried with Christ) for the individual. Sealed, buried, washed, risen anew unto life in Him.

Remembering one's own baptism, one well could let that (splash of 'holy' water) be portion as to refresh, not to re-baptise, but to refresh the memory, though only Christ Himself can cleanse us of *some sort* of the "dirt" which gathers on our feet, though we can minister to one another in this also (just not as He alone can, as Jesus himself told Peter, directly).

One can mention ritual washings, but for Christians, as Christ Himself spoke of in regard to His own undergoing baptism -- He did so "to fulfill all righteousness". This too, is significant.

Go to church, gather together, but leave the temple and systems behind. They had run their course, yet could not subdue the sin, only cover for it until it was not much of a covering at all, not nearly enough. It had become as empty, all but entirely used up, for the sacrifices effected no lasting change --- or --- not enough.

Something had to give. It wasn't working anymore. (was never meant or intended to? not intended as the "end result" sought for under the Covenant given unto the children of Israel, for the Lord delights not in sacrifice, those became to Him a stench instead of sweet savor) Events had run the courses to which they had long been set. John the Baptist knew. It was what he was sent for, as forerunner. One can scarcely retain repentance until one has died to sin (even ceremoniously).

It is there where our new life in Christ begins. We must die (to this world), correct? Christ spoke, then demonstrated. Paul helped to explain, both doing so much rather through encouragement, than by force or compulsion.

Are you wanting to renew a temple system, or to reach for reconciliation with the Creator through the sacrifice of the Son, with access opened to many by way of Spirit?

In effort to reconnect with history, doctrinal and "liturgical" as you put it --- please --- this history goes back to Abraham, not just back to when Damasus[1] first seized office of bishop of Rome, by force (and even murder).

Know what it is that one is aiming to returning to. Simply following --- and repeating apologetic, using one's own added polemics may help one to reach a destination, yet after arriving, finding one has carried their own troubles along with them.

In some circles, that's what's called "pulling a geographic" (change).

It matters little if this change of scenery include outlook, philosophy, even "religious" practice. The end will likely be the same. After a while -- it just won't work anymore. There has to be a deeper change. It can take decades of one's life to discover this...many have trod those boards.

If there has been for you already, change deep enough to be abiding...then so be it, but I've not been able to detect for certainty that there has been (I could very, very, wrong in this regard).

Nonetheless, we none of us can be wrong as to one entirely crucial requirement.
It is this to which I challenge any who seek, to seek fulfilled.

_________________________________________________________

[1] see the bottom portion of this post for reference, particularly if you desire to "answer protestants"

25 posted on 02/01/2014 9:17:00 PM PST by BlueDragon ("the fans are staying away from the ballpark...in droves" Yogi Berra)
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To: matthewrobertolson; presently no screen name; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter; ...
Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical. ...Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice

So being connected to Scripture makes one disconnected, while not going by Scripture makes on connect. How typically Roman. Now show us even one place in the entire NT where the Holy Spirit titles the NT pastor of a church "priest" (hiereus) except by inclusion as part of the general priesthood of all believers, with Christ being the high priest.

Then show us even one place where a NT pastor is uniquely engaging in sacrifice by changing bread into human flesh and distributing it to the people to get life by, thus confirming the Catholic interpretation of the Lord's supper.

Then show us that the church began under the premise that the stewards of Scripture are the authoritative infallible authority on Truth, so that what it affirms or rejects must be submitted to.

Then show us even one place in the entire Bible with its 100+ prayers where anyone except pagans prayed to anyone in Heaven except the Lord.

Then show us even one place in all the epistles to the churches or in the Lords' word to the churches where they are told to look to Peter as their supreme infallible head in Rome, or even to remember the "Holy Father" in prayer, or where Peter even refers to himself as anything more than "an elder," "an apostle," "a servant."

Then show us even one place where there was any successor to an apostle, as James, (Acts 12:2,3) other than for Judas to maintain the original number of the 12 (cf. Rv. 21:14) and being elected by casting lots, as he was.

Then show us even one place where infants were sprinkled in recognition of proxy faith making them formally justified by interior holiness.

Then show us one place where the traditions the apostles referred to was that of ancient legends such as the Assumption (which even lacks early evidence), and Rome teaches now, rather than being contemporary teaching that could be and normally would be written down.

Be forewarned that resorting to the usual egregious extrapolation RCs engage in while trying to support traditions of men by Holy Writ has been refuted already.

Meanwhile i will show you that Scripture is the assured Word of God and transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as it is abundantly evidenced.

Meanwhile, the problem is both that as with priests, Rome not only misappropriates things from Judaism, but also has done much the same with paganism.

"We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

Greeks dedicate images to devils, and call them gods; but we to True God Incarnate, and to God's servants and friends, who drive away the troops of devils." [Note 18] Again, "As the holy Fathers overthrew the temples and shrines of the devils, and raised in their places shrines in the {377} names of Saints and we worship them, so also they overthrew the images of the devils, and in their stead raised images of Christ, and God's Mother, and the Saints. And under the Old Covenant, Israel neither raised temples in the name of men, nor was memory of man made a festival; for, as yet, man's nature was under a curse, and death was condemnation, and therefore was lamented, and a corpse was reckoned unclean and he who touched it; but now that the Godhead has been combined with our nature, as some life-giving and saving medicine, our nature has been glorified and is trans-elemented into incorruption. Wherefore the death of Saints is made a feast, and temples are raised to them, and Images are painted ... - (Chapter 8. Application of the Third Note of a True Development—Assimilative Power, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879; http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html)

26 posted on 02/01/2014 11:18:26 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: matthewrobertolson
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Catholics are disconnected from God if they think that God lives in a church or a eucharist.

Christ dwells in our hearts through faith, making our bodies the temple of the Holy Spirit. Nobody needs to go anywhere to *meet* with God. God is within every believer.

If anyone thinks He lives somewhere else, in all likelihood He does and it's not in that person's heart.

33 posted on 02/02/2014 8:33:16 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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