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In Remembrance of a True Hero of the Faith--- St. Patrick: The Greatest Missionary Since St. Paul
Townhall ^ | 03/16/2014 | Jerry Newcombe

Posted on 03/16/2014 6:29:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

We live in a time of the anti-hero. Too often, the good guys are the bad guys and vice versa. Celebrities are often held up as heroes, until we learn too much about them.

But to see a true hero, look at the real St. Patrick, who has a day dedicated in his honor. Unfortunately, many people only observe his holiday, March 17, by drinking themselves silly, which is totally contrary to the spirit of the man who Christianized Ireland.

In fact, Patrick shows what God can do through someone who is committed fully to Him.

Thomas Cahill, author of the book, How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland’s Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe, notes that Patrick and the Irish came at the moment of a cultural cliff-hanger and played a key role in helping to save civilization.

In the 5th century, barbarians overran the Roman Empire---which was the repository of much of Western civilization---until it finally collapsed. Meanwhile, through the missionary work of Patrick (387-461), the gospel was brought to Ireland; and numerous men became monks as a result, who meticulously copied manuscripts of the Bible and of many of the writings of antiquity.

Cahill writes: “For, as the Roman Empire fell, as all through Europe matted, unwashed barbarians descended on the Roman cities, looting artifacts and burning books, the Irish, who were just learning to read and write, took up the great labor of copying all of Western literature---everything they could lay their hands on.”

He notes, “These scribes then served as conduits through which the Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian cultures were transmitted to the tribes of Europe, newly settled amid the rubble and ruined vineyards of the civilization they had overwhelmed.”

Cahill adds, “Without this Service of the Scribes, everything that happened subsequently would have been unthinkable. Without the Mission of the Irish Monks, who single-handedly refounded European civilization throughout the continent in the bays and valleys of their exile, the world that came after then would have been an entirely different one---a world without books. And our own world would never have come to be.”

The man at the center of all this was St. Patrick.

Many of the details of his life we learn through a document he wrote late in his life, Confession. This was not a book of confessions of his sins, but rather a statement of his beliefs. It is autobiographical in nature.

Patrick (to the surprise of many) was not Irish by birth, but rather grew up in England as a nominal Christian. He said in Confession, “I did not know the true God.”

At the age of 16, marauding Irish pirates laid waste his city and captured slaves, including Patrick. Later he would write of this: "As a youth, nay, almost as a boy not able to speak, I was taken captive, before I knew what to pursue and what to avoid."

Patrick said, “I was taken into captivity to Ireland with many thousands of people---and deservedly so, because we turned away from God, and did not keep His commandments."

For six years, he worked as a slave for a landowning chief. Cahill notes that during this time, Patrick had two companions---hunger and nakedness.

While he served as a shepherd, he remembered his prayers of his youth and came to know God truly through Christ. After six years of captivity, he was able to providentially escape from Ireland.

The late Dr. D. James Kennedy notes, “[Patrick] vowed revenge---the noble revenge of sharing the gospel with the people who held him captive. He believed that he had been called by God to return to the land of his slavery.”

So Patrick, after some theological training, eventually returned to Ireland where he spent the rest of his life (about thirty years) as a missionary. Patrick may well have baptized about 120,000 souls. Some scholars note that he was the most successful missionary since the Apostle Paul.

Patrick wrote this, "Daily, I expect murder, fraud or captivity…but I fear none of these things because of the promises of heaven. I have cast myself into the hands of God almighty who rules everywhere.”

There’s a famous prayer attributed to Patrick that was inspired by him---although in its present form, it was likely written later. This beautiful statement of faith is called “St. Patrick’s Breastplate.”

Here is a portion of the prayer: “I arise today through God’s strength to pilot me: God’s might to uphold me, God’s wisdom to guide me…Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me…”

So remember the next time you see someone get drunk on St. Paddy’s Day, they dishonor the memory a great hero of the faith and of the ages.


TOPICS: History; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: stpatrick
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1 posted on 03/16/2014 6:29:48 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Some democrat idiot told me he chased snakes out of Ireland. Thanks for truths, something of which we don’t have much of in this day and age.


2 posted on 03/16/2014 6:50:48 AM PDT by TEARUNNER14 (ABORTION=ONE DEAD, ONE INJURED.)
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To: SeekAndFind
FReepers, if you want to read a really good book ..... it's a novel, but tells the story of "Saint Patrick".

Patrick: Son of Ireland by Stephen Lawhead

"Born of a noble Welsh family, he is violently torn from his home by Irish raiders at age sixteen and sold as a slave to a brutal wilderness king. Rescued by the king's druids from almost certain death, he learns the arts of healing and song, and the mystical ways of a secretive order whose teachings tantalize with hints at a deeper wisdom. Yet young Succat Morgannwg cannot rest until he sheds the strangling yoke of slavery and returns to his homeland across the sea. He pursues his dream of freedom through horrific war and shattering tragedy—through great love and greater loss—from a dying, decimated Wales to the bloody battlefields of Gaul to the fading majesty of Rome. And in the twilight of a once-supreme empire, he is transformed yet again by divine hand and a passionate vision of "truth against the world," accepting the name that will one day become legend . . . Patricius!"

http://www.amazon.com/Patrick-Ireland-Stephen-R-Lawhead/dp/006001282X
3 posted on 03/16/2014 6:53:40 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: SeekAndFind

The late Dr. D. James Kennedy notes, “[Patrick] vowed revenge-—the noble revenge of sharing the gospel with the people who held him captive. He believed that he had been called by God to return to the land of his slavery.”

And Kennedy himself did not believe in the gospel either.


4 posted on 03/16/2014 6:55:55 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SeekAndFind

FROM CATHOLIC ONLINE

St. Patrick of Ireland is one of the world’s most popular saints.

Apostle of Ireland, born at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland, in the year 387; died at Saul, Downpatrick, Ireland, 17 March, 461.

Along with St. Nicholas and St. Valentine, the secular world shares our love of these saints. This is also a day when everyone’s Irish.

There are many legends and stories of St. Patrick, but this is his story.

Patrick was born around 387 in Scotland, probably Kilpatrick. His parents were Calpurnius and Conchessa, who were Romans living in Britian in charge of the colonies.

As a boy of fourteen or so, he was captured during a raiding party and taken to Ireland as a slave to herd and tend sheep. Ireland at this time was a land of Druids and pagans. He learned the language and practices of the people who held him.

During his captivity, he turned to God in prayer. He wrote

“The love of God and his fear grew in me more and more, as did the faith, and my soul was rosed, so that, in a single day, I have said as many as a hundred prayers and in the night, nearly the same.” “I prayed in the woods and on the mountain, even before dawn. I felt no hurt from the snow or ice or rain.”

Patrick’s captivity lasted until he was twenty, when he escaped after having a dream from God in which he was told to leave Ireland by going to the coast. There he found some sailors who took him back to Britian, where he reunited with his family.

He had another dream in which the people of Ireland were calling out to him “We beg you, holy youth, to come and walk among us once more.”

He began his studies for the priesthood. He was ordained by St. Germanus, the Bishop of Auxerre, whom he had studied under for years.

Later, Patrick was ordained a bishop, and was sent to take the Gospel to Ireland. He arrived in Ireland March 25, 433, at Slane. One legend says that he met a chieftain of one of the tribes, who tried to kill Patrick. Patrick converted Dichu (the chieftain) after he was unable to move his arm until he became friendly to Patrick.

Patrick began preaching the Gospel throughout Ireland, converting many. He and his disciples preached and converted thousands and began building churches all over the country. Kings, their families, and entire kingdoms converted to Christianity when hearing Patrick’s message.

Patrick by now had many disciples, among them Beningnus, Auxilius, Iserninus, and Fiaac, (all later canonized as well).

Patrick preached and converted all of Ireland for 40 years. He worked many miracles and wrote of his love for God in Confessions. After years of living in poverty, traveling and enduring much suffering he died March 17, 461.

He died at Saul, where he had built the first church.

Why a shamrock?
Patrick used the shamrock to explain the Trinity, and has been associated with him and the Irish since that time.

In His Footsteps:
Patrick was a humble, pious, gentle man, whose love and total devotion to and trust in God should be a shining example to each of us. He feared nothing, not even death, so complete was his trust in God, and of the importance of his mission.


5 posted on 03/16/2014 6:58:16 AM PDT by ADSUM
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To: SeekAndFind
The Deer's Cry or St. Patrick's Breastplate
6 posted on 03/16/2014 7:04:43 AM PDT by Paine in the Neck (Socialism consumes EVERYTHING)
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To: vladimir998

RE: And Kennedy himself did not believe in the gospel either.

Can you elaborate?


7 posted on 03/16/2014 7:07:45 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

St. Patrick taught the gospel. Kennedy was a Protestant. St. Patrick was not. The gospel was not. Both were Catholic.


8 posted on 03/16/2014 7:09:45 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Paine in the Neck
"The Deer's Cry"

BEAUTIFUL. Thanks for sharing that with us!

9 posted on 03/16/2014 7:13:33 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: vladimir998

RE: St. Patrick taught the gospel. Kennedy was a Protestant. St. Patrick was not. The gospel was not. Both were Catholic.

So, a celebration of St. Patrick’s life now becomes to you, a thread to bash other Christians as non-Christians heh?

Firstly, explain to us what the gospel is.... then we’ll continue from there...


10 posted on 03/16/2014 7:14:16 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“So, a celebration of St. Patrick’s life now becomes to you, a thread to bash other Christians as non-Christians heh?”

1) I bashed no one.
2) I didn’t say anyone wasn’t a Christian. Believing in Christ and being baptized makes you a Christian. Being a Protestant means you believe a false gospel, not that you are not a Christian.
3) For Protestants, like Kennedy, to pretend that St. Patrick - a Catholic saint - believed the same false gospel Protestants invented a millennium after his death sounds more like bashing than anything I said.

“Firstly, explain to us what the gospel is.... then we’ll continue from there...”

If you have to ask what the gospel is, then that just proves my point: Protestants believe a false gospel.


11 posted on 03/16/2014 7:24:07 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Paine in the Neck
St. Patrick

St Patrick kicked out of school
St. Patrick
Apostle to the Irish (Who is the REAL St. Patrick ?)
Patrick: Deliverer of the Emerald Isle
Breastplate of St Patrick [Poem/Prayer]
Confessions of St. Patrick (In his own words)
Feast of Saint Patrick, the Enlightener of Ireland
St. Patrick(Happy St. Patrick's Day!)
St Patrick's 'day' moved to March 15th (in 2008)
St. Patrick’s Breastplate Prayer

St. Patrick (Erin Go Bragh!)
History of St. Patrick's Day
Patrick: The Good, the Bad, and the Misinformed
The Lorica of St. Patrick
Orthodox Feast of +Patrick, the Enlightener of Ireland
St. Patrick
St. Patrick's Breast Plate
Orthodox Feast of St Patrick, the Enlightener of Ireland, March 17
The Lorica of St. Patrick
To Truly Honor Saint Patrick, Bishop and Confessor
Apostle to the Irish: The Real Saint Patrick
St. Patrick
Saint Patrick [Apostle of Ireland]
Was St. Patrick Catholic?....Of Course!! [Happy St. Pat's Day]

12 posted on 03/16/2014 7:27:30 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: vladimir998

RE: I bashed no one.

OK, I admit poor choice of words, however you declared those whoa re not ROMAN Catholic as non-believers in the Gospel, which in effect makes them not Christians.

RE: I didn’t say anyone wasn’t a Christian. Believing in Christ and being baptized makes you a Christian. Being a Protestant means you believe a false gospel, not that you are not a Christian.

Excuse me? How can believing in a false gospel make you a Christian. A believer in a FALSE gospel makes a person a FALSE Christian, in effect making him non-Christian.

RE: For Protestants, like Kennedy, to pretend that St. Patrick - a Catholic saint

Patrick is a SAINT as in saint -— a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and typically regarded as being in heaven after death. You don’t have to be ROMAN Catholic to believe that.

Also, Patrick was NEVER canonized officially by the ROMAN Catholic church. St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.

RE: If you have to ask what the gospel is, then that just proves my point: Protestants believe a false gospel.

Nope, since I don’t want to misunderstand you, or misquote you, want YOU to explain to us what your idea of the gospel is, then we’ll continue from there. That is why I ask the question. The question is not addressed to others but to YOU individually.

So yes, please explain to us what the gospel is according to your understanding, and then we’ll see whether or not men like James Kennedy believe in it or not.


13 posted on 03/16/2014 7:30:05 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: vladimir998; SeekAndFind
I grew up in Miami and heard James Kennedy teach many times as his Coral Ridge Church was a "sister" church to ours. So I can attest to his Christian beliefs in the Gospel.

Below is the statement of faith from Coral Ridge PCA church which is the Gospel as they and Kennedy (and I) see it....

We believe in one God, the sovereign Creator and Sustainer of all things, infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ, the living Word, became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. He who is true God became true man united in one Person forever. He died on the cross as sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. On the third day He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of God the Father, He now is our High Priest and Mediator.

The Holy Spirit has come to glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to our hearts. He convicts us of sin and draws us to the Savior. Indwelling our hearts, He gives new life to us, empowers and imparts gifts to us for service. He instructs and guides us into all truth, and seals us for the day of redemption.

Being estranged from God and condemned by our sinfulness, our salvation is wholly dependent upon the work of God's free grace. God credits His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, thereby justifying them in His sight. Only such as are born of the Holy Spirit and receive Jesus Christ become children of God and heirs of eternal life.

The true church is composed of all persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit are united together in the body of Christ. The church finds her visible, yet imperfect, expression in local congregations where the Word of God is preached in its purity and the sacraments are administered in their integrity; where scriptural discipline is practiced, and where loving fellowship is maintained. For her perfecting, she awaits the return of her Lord.

Jesus Christ will come again to the earth - personally, visibly, and bodily - to judge the living and the dead, and to consummate history and the eternal plan of God.

If this is not "the Gospel", then I would like to hear from vladimir998 what is.

14 posted on 03/16/2014 7:35:37 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

RE: If this is not “the Gospel”, then I would like to hear from vladimir998 what is.

Thanks, that makes the two of us, and I’m sure I speak for others who happen to read this thread as well.


15 posted on 03/16/2014 7:38:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“OK, I admit poor choice of words, however you declared those whoa re not ROMAN Catholic as non-believers in the Gospel, which in effect makes them not Christians.”

False. I am not “ROMAN Catholic”. I am just Catholic. Also, not believing in the true gospel does not “in effect makes [Protestants] not Christians.”

“Excuse me? How can believing in a false gospel make you a Christian.”

I never said it did. I said BELIEVING IN CHRIST AND BEING BAPTIZED did. I suggest you spend more time actually reading what I post rather than making things up out of thin air.

“A believer in a FALSE gospel makes a person a FALSE Christian, in effect making him non-Christian.”

Nope. Believing in a false gospel makes someone a heretic. Believing in Christ and being baptized makes you a Christian.

“Patrick is a SAINT as in saint -— a person acknowledged as holy or virtuous and typically regarded as being in heaven after death. You don’t have to be ROMAN Catholic to believe that.”

No, but St. Patrick was Catholic. To pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

“Also, Patrick was NEVER canonized officially by the ROMAN Catholic church.”

He didn’t have to be. He was canonized by acclamation. That was common in his time.

“St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993.”

So? As I said, St. Patrick was canonized by acclamation. That was all that was needed.

“Nope, since I don’t want to misunderstand you, or misquote you, want YOU to explain to us what your idea of the gospel is, then we’ll continue from there.”

R-I-G-H-T. You’ve already admitted one error (”OK, I admit poor choice of words”) and you’ve committed more. I never said “those whoa re not ROMAN Catholic [are] non-believers in the Gospel”. So, even when I write very clearly - and that’s all the time - you can’t help but “misunderstand” and “misquote” me. That won’t change no matter what I do so I see no reason to do what you want. I will post what I want, when I want, where I want and how I want - within the rules of the board. And there’s nothing you can do about it. Get used to it.

“That is why I ask the question. The question is not addressed to others but to YOU individually.”

I know. And I’m still going to ignore it. My reason is simple: I see you are already completely inventing out of whole cloth things I’ve never said or believed.

“So yes, please explain to us what the gospel is according to your understanding, and then we’ll see whether or not men like James Kennedy believe in it or not.”

Nope. I will merely continue to post what I want, when I want, where I want, and how I want - within the rules of the board. Based on your misrepresentations of what I’ve said already I have no reason to believe you will get any better.


16 posted on 03/16/2014 7:56:22 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SeekAndFind
***So remember the next time you see someone get drunk on St. Paddy’s Day, they dishonor the memory a great hero of the faith and of the ages.***


17 posted on 03/16/2014 7:56:34 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: vladimir998
Please don't think I am "bashing" you, my FRiend. I am just trying to point out that the Gospel I proclaim and the one you most likely proclaim are one and the same. Yes, there are some serious theological differences in the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant church. We can heartily debate and discuss these differences, but the ultimate truth boils down to the fact that both basically profess the same gospel (good news about salvation through grace of Lord Jesus Christ). So in the spirit of this "Good News" that Patrick brought to Ireland and which spread even further, let's agree to disagree on a few points, but celebrate the "Good News of the Gospel..... for Christ said, "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) whether we be Roman Catholic or Protestant, THAT main message is still the same.
18 posted on 03/16/2014 8:08:37 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: vladimir998

Is there a reason that you are having a difficult time telling us what exactly you do believe the Gospel to be? I have never met a Christian who would not relish the chance to share the “Good News”. I am not accepting the thought that maybe you are too shy or too stubborn to tell us what you do believe. I think there is another reason .....possibly one which you have little control over. Prove me wrong!


19 posted on 03/16/2014 8:18:32 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

“Is there a reason that you are having a difficult time telling us what exactly you do believe the Gospel to be?”

There’s reason - already stated - but no difficulty whatsoever. Care to make something else up that is completely false?


20 posted on 03/16/2014 8:22:22 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
Like I said, PROVE ME WRONG. Believe it or not, I am praying that you will prove that I am wrong. There is only one way to do so.
21 posted on 03/16/2014 8:39:15 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

“Like I said, PROVE ME WRONG.”

Like I said, I post when I want, where I want, and how I want - within the rules. Since I have already been misrepresented in this thread (including by you), I have no reason to believe you are “praying that [I] will prove that [you are] wrong.”


22 posted on 03/16/2014 8:50:44 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Best post of the day.


23 posted on 03/16/2014 9:33:06 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant" - John Henry Cardinal Newman)
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To: SeekAndFind

Breastplate of St. Patrick

“As I arise today,
may the strength of God pilot me,
the power of God uphold me,
the wisdom of God guide me.
May the eye of God look before me,
the ear of God hear me,
the word of God speak for me.
May the hand of God protect me,
the way of God lie before me,
the shield of God defend me,
the host of God save me.
May Christ shield me today.
Christ with me, Christ before me,
Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me,
Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit,
Christ when I stand,
Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
Amen”


24 posted on 03/16/2014 9:44:36 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: NKP_Vet

Best thread posting of the day.


25 posted on 03/16/2014 9:48:28 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: All

We forget it was the same Irish who in the course of time became missionaries themselves bringing the Gospell of Christ to others.


26 posted on 03/16/2014 9:53:38 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: vladimir998

RE: False. I am not “ROMAN Catholic”. I am just Catholic.

Well, in which case, welcome to the club... I am a member of the catholic ( i.e. UNIVERSAL ) church too.

As for not being ROMAN catholic, I’ll have to determine that from the ensuing statements that you make.

RE: I never said it did. I said BELIEVING IN CHRIST AND BEING BAPTIZED did. I suggest you spend more time actually reading what I post rather than making things up out of thin air.

Well, if BELIEVING IN CHRIST AND BEING BAPTIZED makes one a Christian, then James Kennedy IS Christian. He has DONE BOTH.

RE: Nope. Believing in a false gospel makes someone a heretic. Believing in Christ and being baptized makes you a Christian.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. You MUST believe in the TRUE gospel to be a true Christian.

Gnosticism was considered a heresy (Ireneaus fought against it in his work AGAINST HERESIES).

The Gnostics laid claim to Jesus as a great teacher of theirs.

Here is what the apostle John said against this belief masking as being Christians:

(1 John 2: 18-20 )

“Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

The danger of gnosticism is easily apparent. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son. In so doing, it denies the true efficacy of the atonement since, if Jesus is not God, He could not atone for all of mankind; and we would still be lost in our sins. Yet, they claim to be followers of Jesus Christ.

So, based on what the apostle John wrote, being a heretic does NOT make one a Christian. They DO NOT BELONG to Christ.

RE: No, but St. Patrick was Catholic. To pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Nope, Patrick was catholic in the sense that he was a member of the UNIVERSAL ( catholic ) church in the sense that he preached the orthodox, scriptural Christian faith.

Anybody who confesses to Patrick’s faith IS a member of the catholic (universal) church.

RE: He didn’t have to be. He was canonized by acclamation. That was common in his time.

Well in this case, any faithful Christian who faithfully preaches the gospel and lives for Christ is by virtue of his faith, a saint, canonized by acclamation ( whether the Roman Catholic church officially canonizes him or not ).

RE: So? As I said, St. Patrick was canonized by acclamation. That was all that was needed.

Well if so, then I repeat -— any faithful Christian who faithfully preaches the gospel and lives for Christ is by virtue of his faith, a saint, canonized by acclamation ( whether the Roman Catholic church officially canonizes him or not ).

RE: R-I-G-H-T. You’ve already admitted one error (”OK, I admit poor choice of words”)

When one chooses words poorly, one admits it. That does not necessarily mean that other things one says is in error as well.

RE: I never said “those whoa re not ROMAN Catholic [are] non-believers in the Gospel”.

But you said James Kennedy ( a none Roman Catholic ) did not believe in the gospel. It was there in your post above.

RE: So, even when I write very clearly - and that’s all the time - you can’t help but “misunderstand” and “misquote” me.

Again, why is James Kennedy not a believer in the gospel?
I’ve asked you this several times, I’m still waiting for an answer...

RE: I know. And I’m still going to ignore it. My reason is simple: I see you are already completely inventing out of whole cloth things I’ve never said or believed.

Again, I am asking you for you to CLARIFY what you mean by the term “Not believe in the gospel”.

So, I’m still waiting.... why are you ignoring my attempt at seeking clarification?

RE: Nope. I will merely continue to post what I want, when I want, where I want, and how I want - within the rules of the board. Based on your misrepresentations of what.

Well, I guess based on the above response you are making, your statement that “James Kennedy does not believe in the gospel” is just that, a personal belief no one can take seriously.


27 posted on 03/16/2014 11:43:36 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: NKP_Vet

RE: Best post of the day.

Apparently, not answering a question is the best post of the day to you.


28 posted on 03/16/2014 11:52:23 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“Well, in which case, welcome to the club... I am a member of the catholic ( i.e. UNIVERSAL ) church too.”

No, you’re just a Protestant. No Protestant is “catholic” by definition.

“As for not being ROMAN catholic, I’ll have to determine that from the ensuing statements that you make.”

You don’t get to make that determination. The Catholic Church does.

“Well, if BELIEVING IN CHRIST AND BEING BAPTIZED makes one a Christian, then James Kennedy IS Christian. He has DONE BOTH.”

Did I ever say otherwise? No. He believed in a false gospel. I never doubted he believed in Jesus and was baptized.

“Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. You MUST believe in the TRUE gospel to be a true Christian.”

No. You must believe in the true gospel to be a Christian in the fullest sense of the term. You can, however, be a Christian and have false beliefs - even about the gospel - as Protestants demonstrate every day.

“Gnosticism was considered a heresy (Ireneaus fought against it in his work AGAINST HERESIES).”

Yes, and?

“The Gnostics laid claim to Jesus as a great teacher of theirs.”

And they were wrong, of course.

“Here is what the apostle John said against this belief masking as being Christians:(1 John 2: 18-20 )”

John denounced false teachers - just as he would have denounced D. James Kennedy.

“The danger of gnosticism is easily apparent.”

And not at all at issue here so I have no idea why you’re going on and on about it.

“So, based on what the apostle John wrote, being a heretic does NOT make one a Christian. They DO NOT BELONG to Christ.”

1) I never said being a heretic MAKES ONE A CHRISTIAN. The idea that you just spent time and energy to refute something no one ever claimed is hilarious!

2) Gnosticism denied the Trinity, the Incarnation, and numerous other basic Christian doctrines.

“Nope, Patrick was catholic in the sense that he was a member of the UNIVERSAL ( catholic ) church in the sense that he preached the orthodox, scriptural Christian faith.”

St. Patrick was Catholic. He believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the authority of the pope. He believed in a priesthood (he was celibate as well), and sacraments in the Catholic sense. The Church was most decidedly “UNIVERSAL ( catholic )” for it was after all the Catholic Church. Even Protestants have had to admit that St. Patrick was Catholic: James McGoldrick has an excellent chapter about exactly that: http://www.amazon.com/Baptist-Successionism-James-Edward-McGoldrick/dp/0810836815

“Anybody who confesses to Patrick’s faith IS a member of the catholic (universal) church.”

Which isn’t your puny, latter day, 16th century or later, invented sect. It’s the Catholic Church.

“Well in this case, any faithful Christian who faithfully preaches the gospel and lives for Christ is by virtue of his faith, a saint, canonized by acclamation ( whether the Roman Catholic church officially canonizes him or not ).”

No. To say that anyone who does anything - no matter how good - has received acclamation for it by the faithful is simply untrue. Also, the saints who were acclaimed as such were known to lived lives of heroic virtue. They need not have ever “preached” a moment in their entire lives. Preaching is no more necessary for canonization that it is for justification of sanctification.

“Well if so, then I repeat -— any faithful Christian who faithfully preaches the gospel and lives for Christ is by virtue of his faith, a saint, canonized by acclamation ( whether the Roman Catholic church officially canonizes him or not ).”

And you’re still wrong - as I already demonstrated. Most people, even those who go to heaven, are never acclaimed a saint after their deaths. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. Your premise, therefore, is inherently flawed.

“When one chooses words poorly, one admits it. That does not necessarily mean that other things one says is in error as well.”

But since you have made other errors - as with your flawed premise above - we can all see the direction your error filled posts are going.

“But you said James Kennedy ( a none Roman Catholic ) did not believe in the gospel. It was there in your post above.”

He believed a false gospel. Yes, and?

“Again, why is James Kennedy not a believer in the gospel?”

Shouldn’t you ask him that? He’s dead so I don’t think you’ll be finding out soon.

“I’ve asked you this several times, I’m still waiting for an answer...”

No, you asked perhaps once before this post - when you asked me to elaborate. And I did so. The question is answered. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like the answer.

“Again, I am asking you for you to CLARIFY what you mean by the term “Not believe in the gospel”.”

I already stated - in very simple, short sentences for your convenience - all that is needed for clarification on that point.

“So, I’m still waiting.... why are you ignoring my attempt at seeking clarification?”

I didn’t. Maybe you should read the thread. See post #8.

“Well, I guess based on the above response you are making, your statement that “James Kennedy does not believe in the gospel” is just that, a personal belief no one can take seriously.”

No, it was an objectively true statement and irrefutable in fact.


29 posted on 03/16/2014 12:23:22 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SeekAndFind; vladimir998; NKP_Vet; Biggirl
Can either of you (NKP_Vet and Biggirl) who think Vlad's posts were the best of the day, also come to his rescue and tell SeekAndFind and me what the "real" gospel message is and how it differs from the one James Kennedy and his Coral Ridge PCA Church proclaims? See post #14 if you have forgotten what James Kennedy and his church teaches as the Gospel message.

For some reason vladimir998 does not want to tell us. Can either of you tell us? Vlad seems to think that Pastor Kennedy was a "heretic"..... QUOTE from Vlad: "Being a Protestant means you believe a false gospel" and "Believing in a false gospel makes someone a heretic". Since you both backed him up as "best posts of the day", does that mean that you also think James Kennedy was a heretic?

30 posted on 03/16/2014 12:45:59 PM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

“also come to his rescue”

I’m not in need of rescue. Why are you making things up out of thin air?

“Vlad seems to think that Pastor Kennedy was a “heretic””

He taught heresy.


31 posted on 03/16/2014 12:55:12 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

RE: No, you’re just a Protestant. No Protestant is “catholic” by definition.

Nope, Protestants are NOT ROMAN Catholic by definition. The term “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL. As long as one believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings one IS by definition, a member of the catholic (universal) church.

RE: You don’t get to make that determination. The Catholic Church does.

In which case, the CATHOLIC church did make the determination by virtue of the Lord of the Church — Jesus Christ Himself.

RE: He believed in a false gospel. I never doubted he believed in Jesus and was baptized.

Which goes back to the original question which you never answered — what is the true gospel?

I’m still waiting....

RE: No. You must believe in the true gospel to be a Christian in the fullest sense of the term.

Agree. In which case, heretics are NOT Christians. Not in the fullest sense of the word.

RE: You can, however, be a Christian and have false beliefs - even about the gospel - as Protestants demonstrate every day.

NOT NECESSARILY. It depends on the ESSENTIALS of what one believes or denies. Gnostics are not Christians because they DENY an essential of the Christian faith — the INCARNATION of Jesus Christ. They say they are Christians and they practice baptism but John says THEY ARE NOT OF US.

So, simply having false beliefs is not the criteria — it is the ESSENTIALNESS of the false beliefs that differentiates a Christian from a non-Christian.

RE: “Gnosticism was considered a heresy (Ireneaus fought against it in his work AGAINST HERESIES).”

Yes, and?

AND THEREFORE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIANS EVEN AS THEIR BELIEFS WERE FALSE. They were also considered HERETICAL.

So, a heretic ( one who denies ESSENTIAL Christian belief ) CANNOT BE Christian ( as per John’s epistle ).

RE: I never said being a heretic MAKES ONE A CHRISTIAN. The idea that you just spent time and energy to refute something no one ever claimed is hilarious!

But you said one can have heretical beliefs and still be Christian. So, I guess the question becomes — HOW SERIOUS and ESSENTIAL a heretical belief should be.

I would then say believing in a FALSE GOSPEL qualifies as being a serious heretic, one who CANNOT BE Christian.

So, it goes back to my question TO YOU — what is the gospel?

Since you said Kennedy believes in a FALSE GOSPEL.

I want to understand how FALSE his belief is to you.

RE: St. Patrick was Catholic. He believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the authority of the pope.

Well, I believe in the authority of the Pope — IN SO FAR AS HIS TEACHNGS ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH SCRIPTURE. Does that make me a Roman Catholic?

I believe the Pope’s authority derives from GOD’s word, if He teaches God’s word faithfully, then he has God’s authority. But then I believe that authority applies to every person as well.

As for the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist, can you cite me a writing of St. Patrick that shows us that he believes that?

RE: No. To say that anyone who does anything - no matter how good - has received acclamation for it by the faithful is simply untrue.

Says who? YOU? Well that’s just you.

RE: Also, the saints who were acclaimed as such were known to lived lives of heroic virtue.

And so? What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of? Why can’t they be acclaimed?

RE: They need not have ever “preached” a moment in their entire lives. Preaching is no more necessary for canonization that it is for justification of sanctification.

Canonization is only a process for those who MEN KNOW ABOUT.

It is not necesssary for considering someone a true saint.

There are MANY Saints we do not know of that are true saints in God’s eyes.

RE: Which isn’t your puny, latter day, 16th century or later, invented sect. It’s the Catholic Church.

If one is faithful to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture, it is NOT your puny, latter day invented sect. It IS the faith as originally given by Jesus Himself.

RE: And you’re still wrong - as I already demonstrated. Most people, even those who go to heaven, are never acclaimed a saint after their deaths. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. Your premise, therefore, is inherently flawed.

Nope, it is your premise that is false. One does not need men’s acclamation, one need’s GOD’s acclamation whether men know it or not.

RE: he Church was most decidedly “UNIVERSAL ( catholic )” for it was after all the Catholic Church. Even Protestants have had to admit that St. Patrick was Catholic:

I never said St. Patrick was not catholic, I simply question your definition of the word — catholic as exclusive to those who go to the church that you go to.

Catholic is the Greek phrase (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”. One is a member of Christ’s CATHOLIC church by virtue of belief in Him and His teachings.

“For whosoever BELIEVES in Him HAS everlasting life” ( John 3:16 ).

St. Patrick is catholic, yes, but so are those who are NOT in the ROMAN catholic church.

RE: He believed a false gospel. Yes, and?

And it begs the question -— WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

You have to DEFINE it for us to determine whether your statement is right or wrong.

RE: No, it was an objectively true statement and irrefutable in fact

If it is an objectively true statement, then you should be able to tell me — WHAT IS THE TRUE GOSPEL? You have been avoiding the question and thus far, doing a very good job of NOT ANSWERING it.

Here is what the apostle Paul said about the gospel:

1 Corinthians 15 ( I use the Douay Rheams version ):

Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; [2] By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: [5] And that he was seen by Cephas; and after that by the eleven.

Then he was seen by more than five hundred brethren at once: of whom many remain until this present, and some are fallen asleep. [7] After that, he was seen by James, then by all the apostles. [8] And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. [9] For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [10] But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

[11] For whether I, or they, so we preach, and so you have believed.

_________________

OK, that is what St. Paul preached as THE GOSPEL.

Why in your opinion, does Kennedy NOT believe in that?


32 posted on 03/16/2014 12:55:27 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: vladimir998; Apple Pan Dowdy

RE: He taught heresy.

In what way?

Show us the heresy.


33 posted on 03/16/2014 12:58:16 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind; vladimir998

I looked far and wide on this thread and I can see no question you or anyone else has asked me. But like I said,
Vladimir998 putting heretics in their place is some good stuff. Makes my day. Hattip to Vladimir. You’re a great Catholic apologist.


34 posted on 03/16/2014 12:59:34 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant" - John Henry Cardinal Newman)
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To: vladimir998
If you have to ask what the gospel is, then that just proves my point: Protestants believe a false gospel.

Well how can you call yourself a Christian...If you have the true Gospel and won't share it with us, you're not much of a Christian...

So what is this true Gospel that we don't know about???

35 posted on 03/16/2014 1:30:03 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: NKP_Vet
You’re a great Catholic apologist.

Apologist??? Saying 'you are wrong and I am right' makes one a good Catholic apologist??? Oh brother!!!!

36 posted on 03/16/2014 1:40:39 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: SeekAndFind

“Nope, Protestants are NOT ROMAN Catholic by definition.”

No, Protestants are Protestant by definition. To say they aren’t “ROMAN Catholic by definition” might make them Melkite Catholics or Maronites or Eastern Orthodox. Notice how you said they were not Christian by definition? You apparently have a lower opinion of Protestants than someone might first think – and you’re one of them.

“The term “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL. As long as one believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings one IS by definition, a member of the catholic (universal) church.”

Protestants believe in heresies so they do not believe all that is necessary to be in the Church. They have sects, tens of thousands of them, but no Church.

“In which case, the CATHOLIC church did make the determination by virtue of the Lord of the Church — Jesus Christ Himself.”

The Catholic Church already has determined that Protestantism is heresy. Protestants are not in the Church.

“Which goes back to the original question which you never answered — what is the true gospel?”

I did answer why his was false.

“I’m still waiting....”

Great. You’re going to be waiting until the thread dies out. Get comfy.

“Agree.”

If you did, you would have just contradicted yourself.

“ In which case, heretics are NOT Christians. Not in the fullest sense of the word.”

A heretic can be Christian – hence, Protestants are Christians. They just aren’t Christians in the fullest sense.

“NOT NECESSARILY. It depends on the ESSENTIALS of what one believes or denies. Gnostics are not Christians because they DENY an essential of the Christian faith — the INCARNATION of Jesus Christ. They say they are Christians and they practice baptism but John says THEY ARE NOT OF US.”

Being “NOT OF US” does not stop a Protestant from being a Christian. It means he is not a Christian in the fullest sense and is not in communion with the Church.

“So, simply having false beliefs is not the criteria — it is the ESSENTIALNESS of the false beliefs that differentiates a Christian from a non-Christian.”

Protestants are “NOT OF US”.

“AND THEREFORE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIANS EVEN AS THEIR BELIEFS WERE FALSE. They were also considered HERETICAL.”

Gnosticism was not Christian. Gnostics were luring Christians into their sects. Some Gnostics even entered the Church and lived as Christians for some years. Hence, the worry over their doctrines as heresies was very real and realistic.

“So, a heretic ( one who denies ESSENTIAL Christian belief ) CANNOT BE Christian ( as per John’s epistle ).”

That isn’t what John says. The fact that he says they are not “of us” does not mean they are not Christian. It means they are not in the Church.

“But you said one can have heretical beliefs and still be Christian.”

Protestants are living proof of that.

“So, I guess the question becomes — HOW SERIOUS and ESSENTIAL a heretical belief should be.”

No, the question should be: why belong to a heretical group or why embrace any heresy like Protestantism?

“I would then say believing in a FALSE GOSPEL qualifies as being a serious heretic, one who CANNOT BE Christian.”

Since what you say simply doesn’t matter, and you don’t get to decide these things, it’s still certain that Protestants believe in heresy but are Christians nonetheless.

“So, it goes back to my question TO YOU — what is the gospel?”

You still comfy?

“Since you said Kennedy believes in a FALSE GOSPEL. I want to understand how FALSE his belief is to you.”

It doesn’t matter how false his beliefs are to me.

“Well, I believe in the authority of the Pope — IN SO FAR AS HIS TEACHNGS ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH SCRIPTURE.”

I don’t believe you for a second on both counts.

“Does that make me a Roman Catholic?”

Ask one. I’m Catholic.

“I believe the Pope’s authority derives from GOD’s word, if He teaches God’s word faithfully, then he has God’s authority. But then I believe that authority applies to every person as well.”

Sorry, I have no reason to believe you are being honest in your answer.

“As for the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist, can you cite me a writing of St. Patrick that shows us that he believes that?”

Read James McGoldrick’s book.

“ Says who? YOU? Well that’s just you.”

No, it’s just objective fact.

“And so? What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of? Why can’t they be acclaimed?”

Because they’re not known. You answered your own question when you said, “What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of?” Do you think about what you post?

“Canonization is only a process for those who MEN KNOW ABOUT.”

Did anyone ever claim it was a process for those who were
not known?

“It is not necesssary for considering someone a true saint.”

So you’re claiming it is necessary for considering someone an untrue saint? Do you actually pay attention to what you write?

“There are MANY Saints we do not know of that are true saints in God’s eyes.”

Of course. Is anyone claiming otherwise? Why are you spending so much time – again – arguing against things no one has posted???

“If one is faithful to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture, it is NOT your puny, latter day invented sect. It IS the faith as originally given by Jesus Himself.”

No Protestant is faithful “to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture”.

“Nope, it is your premise that is false.”

Nope, only yours. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. That is irrefutable.

“One does not need men’s acclamation, one need’s GOD’s acclamation whether men know it or not.”

Again, who here is claiming otherwise?

“I never said St. Patrick was not catholic, I simply question your definition of the word — catholic as exclusive to those who go to the church that you go to.”

The very understanding of “catholic” precludes the inclusion of Protestantism. It’s not about my definition of the word. It’s about THE definition of the word and THE definition of Protestantism.

“Catholic is the Greek phrase (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”. One is a member of Christ’s CATHOLIC church by virtue of belief in Him and His teachings.”

Nope. One is catholic only when he is Catholic. No Protestant can be Catholic because he is a Protestant. He must leave behind his heresy to be Catholic. No one can be Protestant (i.e. a holder of heretical doctrines lumped together under the banner of “Protestantism”) and be “universal” at the same time. Heresies are particular untruths. Holding to them draws you away from what is Catholic.

“St. Patrick is catholic, yes, but so are those who are NOT in the ROMAN catholic church.”

The only Catholics are Catholics. No Protestant is a Catholic. St. Patrick was Catholic.

“And it begs the question -— WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?”

It doesn’t beg the question. Still comfy?

“You have to DEFINE it for us to determine whether your statement is right or wrong.”

I post what I want, where I want and how I want – within the rules. You have no claim to determine what is right or wrong and your track record so far doesn’t inspire confidence.

“If it is an objectively true statement, then you should be able to tell me — WHAT IS THE TRUE GOSPEL?”

I am able. That doesn’t mean I’ll do what you want. Still comfy?

“You have been avoiding the question and thus far, doing a very good job of NOT ANSWERING it.”

Stay comfy.

“Here is what the apostle Paul said about the gospel:”

And yet Protestants teach a false gospel.

“OK, that is what St. Paul preached as THE GOSPEL. Why in your opinion, does Kennedy NOT believe in that?”

He didn’t. I already said why.


37 posted on 03/16/2014 1:59:26 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SeekAndFind

“Show us the heresy.”

I already said why it was heresy. I do not believe you sincerely want to know more.


38 posted on 03/16/2014 2:00:57 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Iscool

“Well how can you call yourself a Christian...If you have the true Gospel and won’t share it with us, you’re not much of a Christian...”

Your premise is false, Iscool. I have seen people share the gospel with you over the years and you do nothing but attack them or deny the truth. If I do not believe a man is sincere in his request to hear the truth I will not take his word for it.

“So what is this true Gospel that we don’t know about???”

I can’t see how you can’t know what you yourself have attacked in numerous threads over the years, Iscool. Protestant anti-Catholics, like Democrats, never seem to realize that good people who’ve had past experiences with them can actually tell when they are lying.


39 posted on 03/16/2014 2:05:27 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998; Apple Pan Dowdy

RE: I already said why it was heresy. I do not believe you sincerely want to know more.

A heresy is belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious Christian doctrine.

Which then begs the question — what is ORTHODOX Christian doctrine?

We already have the answer -— Beliefs that are TAUGHT IN GOD’s WORD — Scripture.

These beliefs are summarized and formalized in our standard confessions of faith — the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed.

So, you call James Kennedy’s beliefs heretical, I challenged you to show me where in his teachings or in his public confession of faith he taught or confessed to heretical teachings. You have not shown me anything. You simply made a statement as if that satisfy the criteria. It does not.

So, yes the question demands an answer.


40 posted on 03/16/2014 3:34:07 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Iscool; NKP_Vet

RE:

YEP, That’s what I am getting so far from vladimir. Essentially, because I said so, therefore, it must be so.


41 posted on 03/16/2014 3:35:34 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: vladimir998

RE: No, Protestants are Protestant by definition.

Actually, Protestants are not necessarily Christians either. It depends on what you confess and what you believe. But I can say the same of people who call themselves Roman Catholic.

RE: To say they aren’t “ROMAN Catholic by definition” might make them Melkite Catholics or Maronites or Eastern Orthodox. Notice how you said they were not Christian by definition? You apparently have a lower opinion of Protestants than someone might first think – and you’re one of them.

A Christian (by scriptural definition ) is someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, not some label you attach to them as in the above labels you use.

So, what makes someone a follower? Simple -— Jesus Himself gives the criteria : “Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things I say?” (Luke 6:46 ).

So, Someone who OBEYS the Lord’s teachings IS a Christian, regardless of how you label them.

RE: Protestants believe in heresies so they do not believe all that is necessary to be in the Church. They have sects, tens of thousands of them, but no Church.

Errr... you keep using the word “heresy” without bothering to define the word.

As for sects, tens of thousands of them, you need to show me what each individual sect or denomination confesses and believe in. I don’t call every one of them heretical simply because you use the word “sect” to describe them.

WHAT DO THEY BELIEVE? <-— that is the criteria, not what vladimir says.

RE: Great. You’re going to be waiting until the thread dies out. Get comfy.

This tells me one thing— You either : 1) Don’t know what the gospel is; or 2) Are simply using the word without knowing what it means; or 3) You are avoiding answering it for fear you might mis-define it.

But we have all the time in the world... this thread need not die out and I am a patient man. I’d like to wait for your definition of the gospel....

RE: Being “NOT OF US” does not stop a Protestant from being a Christian. It means he is not a Christian in the fullest sense and is not in communion with the Church.

Well, it looks like we need to define our terms again — What is “the Church”?

I don’t agree that Protestants (those who believe seriously in scripture ) are not in communion with the CHURCH of Christ.

I don’t know how you define it, but here is the Biblical definition :

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” The body of Christ is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2) until Christ’s return.

The body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:

1) The universal (i.e. catholic) church consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). This verse says that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ and has received the Spirit of Christ as evidence. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2: “Paul, an apostle … and all the brothers with me, to the churches in Galatia.” Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches—what we call local churches. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc., is not the church, as in the universal church—but rather is a local church, a local body of believers. The universal church is comprised of those who belong to Christ and who have trusted Him for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.

THAT is the Biblical definition of the church. What is yours?

RE: No, the question should be: why belong to a heretical group or why embrace any heresy like Protestantism?

No, the question is how do you define “Heresy”?

You have used several words which you don’t bother to define.

Here they are : The Church, Heresy, Gospel.

RE: Nope. One is catholic only when he is Catholic. No Protestant can be Catholic because he is a Protestant.

You are equivocating again.

By “catholic” you are equating the term with ROMAN Catholic.

I don’t believe you can claim the word “catholic” (Universal ) as your own.

You can call yourself a Protestant and NOT be in the catholic (universal ) church by virtue of your unbelief. Likewise, you can be baptized into the ROMAN catholic Church and not be a member of the “catholic” church by virtue of your unbelief. How many Roman Catholics are now atheists or converted to Islam? These people are not members of the catholic church any longer by virtue of their unbelief.

RE: Nope, only yours. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. That is irrefutable.

Calling it irrefutable does not make it so.

Let’s make it even better -— No canonization, or no acclamation DOES NOT MEAN one is not a Saint.

And by that, I again go back to scripture, not vladimir’s definition.

The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious.” It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” “…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem” (Acts 9:13). “Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda” (Acts 9:32). “And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use, and that is “Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…” (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view: “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).

The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: “that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …” (Romans 16:2). “For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12). “But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints” (Ephesians 5:3).

So, a virtuous Christian does not don’t need to be canonized, or acclamated to be a Saint. All one needs is for GOD to see you as one.

The fact that St. Patrick is recognized as a Saint by ALL Christians ( not only by those of the Roman Catholic persuasion ) is a GOOD THING. It simply means he meets the BIBLICAL criteria of being a Saint, which EVERY Christian ( be he in the Roman Catholic church or not ) can aspire to become.

RE: The only Catholics are Catholics. No Protestant is a Catholic. St. Patrick was Catholic.

Correction : True Christians are ALL Catholics (members of the UNIVERSAL church ). St. Patrick was Catholic, true, but so are many virtous Christians who are not baptized in the ROMAN catholic church.

RE: He didn’t. I already said why.

Actually the emphasis is on the word “I”, which is your own peculiar definition of what the gospel is ( which you still refuse to say ).

I go by what St. Paul said. And since Kennedy believes in what St. Paul defines as the gospel, I have to conclude that
your statement is WRONG.


42 posted on 03/16/2014 3:59:04 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: NKP_Vet

RE: Vladimir998 putting heretics in their place is some good stuff.

AS if you did not notice, I asked vladimir to define the word “heretic” for me. He has thus far, not done so.

He simply restates and reuses the word as if his saying so makes it so.

Maybe you can be more helpful and define it for us.


43 posted on 03/16/2014 4:03:18 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: vladimir998

I’ve never seen a Catholic present a Gospel...For something to be the Gospel it has to be found in the Gospel...


44 posted on 03/16/2014 4:09:58 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: SeekAndFind

“A heresy is belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious Christian doctrine. Which then begs the question — what is ORTHODOX Christian doctrine?”

Please learn the correct use of the phrase “begs the question”. It does NOT mean what you think it means.

“We already have the answer -— Beliefs that are TAUGHT IN GOD’s WORD — Scripture.”

Who is “we”?

“These beliefs are summarized and formalized in our standard confessions of faith — the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed.”

Not exactly. Homoousian is in keeping with scripture but could never be called merely a summary or formalization of it.

“So, you call James Kennedy’s beliefs heretical, I challenged you to show me where in his teachings or in his public confession of faith he taught or confessed to heretical teachings.”

Anything that he taught that was Protestant was heretical. Take your pick.

“You have not shown me anything. You simply made a statement as if that satisfy the criteria. It does not.”

It does. Protestantism is heresy. There is no other possibility.

“So, yes the question demands an answer.”

But it doesn’t beg one.


45 posted on 03/16/2014 4:44:03 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SeekAndFind

“Actually, Protestants are not necessarily Christians either. It depends on what you confess and what you believe. But I can say the same of people who call themselves Roman Catholic.”

So now you’re talking about Protestants who aren’t Christians while earlier you falsely accused me of saying Protestants aren’t Christians?

“A Christian (by scriptural definition ) is someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ, not some label you attach to them as in the above labels you use.”

I was the one who pointed out that a believer in Christ who was also baptized is a Christian. You insisted that was not the case if that person is a heretic.

“So, what makes someone a follower? Simple -— Jesus Himself gives the criteria : “Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things I say?” (Luke 6:46 ).”

You have done this at least two or three times now: you post a verse that actually shows that – by your own definition and proof texts – you are not a Christian or follower of Jesus. You contradict yourself again and again.

“So, Someone who OBEYS the Lord’s teachings IS a Christian, regardless of how you label them.”

And there you go again writing yourself out of Christianity.

“Errr... you keep using the word “heresy” without bothering to define the word.”

I already know the definition. I don’t need to define it. If you need it defined, it means you’re not ready for this conversation – which has been self-evident for several hours now.

“As for sects, tens of thousands of them, you need to show me what each individual sect or denomination confesses and believe in.”

No, actually I don’t. They’re all Protestant sects. That’s all that is needed.

“I don’t call every one of them heretical simply because you use the word “sect” to describe them.”

All Protestant sects are heretical. It is inevitable.

“WHAT DO THEY BELIEVE? <-— that is the criteria, not what vladimir says.”

They believe in Protestantism – which is heresy.

“This tells me one thing— You either : 1) Don’t know what
the gospel is; or 2) Are simply using the word without knowing what it means; or 3) You are avoiding answering it for fear you might mis-define it.”

None of the above. I don’t mind if it bothers you.

“But we have all the time in the world... this thread need not die out and I am a patient man. I’d like to wait for your definition of the gospel....”

Get comfy.

“Well, it looks like we need to define our terms again — What is “the Church”?”

What you’re not in.

“I don’t agree that Protestants (those who believe seriously in scripture ) are not in communion with the CHURCH of Christ.”

1) It doesn’t matter what you believe. Since you are not in the Church, and don’t believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, there is no reason to think that you have a clue.

2) Protestants do not “believe seriously in scripture”. They seriously believe in their heresies.

“I don’t know how you define it,”

I define it correctly.

“but here is the Biblical definition :”

And not surprisingly you made the same mistake that all Protestants make.

“ A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc., is not the church, as in the universal church—but rather is a local church, a local body of believers.”

Completely false. Baptists do not believe in infant baptism. Lutherans do. Both claim to believe in sola scriptura and sola fide yet they differ widely on something as essential as baptism – what it means, who receives it, why it matters. Christ and the Holy Spirit simply don’t operate that way.

“The universal church is comprised of those who belong to Christ and who have trusted Him for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.”

No. Although all baptized Christians have some connection to the Church, not all are members of the Church. Some directly reject it in fact.

“THAT is the Biblical definition of the church. What is yours?”

The correct one. Yours is not the Biblical definition. Yours is merely the Protestant definition.

“No, the question is how do you define “Heresy”?”

No. Heresy has already been defined. It is not how I define it. It is not how you define it. It is why do you continue to embrace it?

“You have used several words which you don’t bother to define.”

I don’t need to. I already know the definitions. If you don’t know those definitions, that is your problem and reflective of the fact that you are just a Protestant and Protestantism is synonymous with heresy.

“Here they are : The Church, Heresy, Gospel.”

I am in the Church, follow the Gospel, and leave all the Heresy to you since you embrace it.

“You are equivocating again.”

No. Things are what they are. You apparently want things to be what they aren’t. A Protestant can never be “catholic” because if his beliefs became “catholic” he would instantly cease to be a Protestant in belief.

“By “catholic” you are equating the term with ROMAN Catholic.”

Completely false. I directly equate catholic with Catholic as is proper.

“I don’t believe you can claim the word “catholic” (Universal ) as your own.”

What you believe doesn’t matter. The Catholic Church is catholic. Protestant sects are just heretical sects and not catholic in any sense of the world.

“You can call yourself a Protestant and NOT be in the catholic (universal ) church by virtue of your unbelief. Likewise, you can be baptized into the ROMAN catholic Church and not be a member of the “catholic” church by virtue of your unbelief. How many Roman Catholics are now atheists or converted to Islam? These people are not members of the catholic church any longer by virtue of their unbelief.”

Once again you attack a belief no one holds.

“Calling it irrefutable does not make it so.”

Nope. But it is irrefutable – and that’s why I called it so.

“Let’s make it even better -— No canonization, or no acclamation DOES NOT MEAN one is not a Saint.”

No kidding.

“And by that, I again go back to scripture, not vladimir’s definition.”

You mean that once again you will attack (by inference or implication) a belief no one holds. And this time you plagiarize a website to do it while claiming you’re going “back to scripture”: https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS418US418&q=%E2%80%9Csaint%E2%80%9D+comes+from+the+Greek+word+hagios%2C+which+means+%E2%80%9Cconsecrated+to+God%2C+holy%2C+sacred%2C+pious.%E2%80%9D+It+is+almost+always+used+in+the+plural%2C+%E2%80%9Csaints.%E2%80%9D+%E2%80%9C%E2%80%A6Lord%2C+I+have+heard+from+many+about+this+man%2C+how+much+harm+he+did+to+Your+saints+at+Jerusalem%E2%80%9D+(Acts+9%3A13).+%E2%80%9CNow+as+Peter+was+traveling+through+all+those+regions%2C+he+came+down+also+to+the+saints+who+lived+at+Lydda%E2%80%9D+(Acts+9%3A32).+

Why are Protestants so dishonest?

“So, a virtuous Christian does not don’t need to be canonized, or acclamated to be a Saint. All one needs is for GOD to see you as one.”

Again, why do you attack (by inference or implication) a belief no one holds.

“The fact that St. Patrick is recognized as a Saint by ALL Christians ( not only by those of the Roman Catholic persuasion ) is a GOOD THING.”

Not all Christians recognize St. Patrick as a saint.

“It simply means he meets the BIBLICAL criteria of being a Saint, which EVERY Christian ( be he in the Roman Catholic church or not ) can aspire to become.”

It’s amazing how much time you spend making points that do not need to be made.

“Correction : True Christians are ALL Catholics (members of the UNIVERSAL church ). St. Patrick was Catholic, true, but so are many virtous Christians who are not baptized in the ROMAN catholic church.”

Correction: no Protestant can be Catholic.

“Actually the emphasis is on the word “I”, which is your own peculiar definition of what the gospel is ( which you still refuse to say ).”

No the emphasis is on “already”. And I have no “peculiar” definition of what the gospel is. I only hold to the true definition. Only Protestants or other heretics can have a peculiar definition of the gospel by definition.

“I go by what St. Paul said.”

No, you don’t. You go by what most Protestants say St. Paul said.

“And since Kennedy believes in what St. Paul defines as the gospel, I have to conclude that
your statement is WRONG.”

What you conclude is immaterial since you’re a sectarian and holder of heresy.


46 posted on 03/16/2014 5:49:07 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

“For some reason vladimir998 does not want to tell us. Can either of you tell us?”

I pay no attention to those multi-millionare televangelists,
James Kennedy made a fortune off his Coral Ridge Ministries.
I don’t think that was exactly the message that Christ preached.


47 posted on 03/16/2014 6:03:06 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant" - John Henry Cardinal Newman)
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To: SeekAndFind; Iscool

Thank you both for fighting the good fight. I’m betting that you both will agree with me that our “fight” is not against the freepers here on this thread who call themselves Catholics, but rather it is against the evil one. I have prayed all day that I might be able to find some common ground between us and them ..... common ground in at least the basic message of the Gospel (the Good News of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and His Grace). None of them was willing to testify as to what their belief is other than to tell us that it is because it is and always has been so and we Protestants are heretics because we aren’t Catholic and thus not able to understand what Christianity really is.

Let’s face it, they very well may not know what the scriptures teach, they may not have ever had a “conversation” with Jesus or felt the comfort, and strength of the Holy Spirit. They may know only scattered verses that are tossed out at Mass rather than the excitement of delving deep into precept-by-precept study of Gods living Word. They may only know what their Priests and Bishops and Popes want them to know. They may in some cases not be capable of quoting the Word because of some evil blocking them from doing so. That saddens me, because despite everything, I still can see some good deep down in them, or they would not be FReepers.

Today I came very close to understanding something that has bothered me for many years. I never could understand how the Roman Catholic church could have labeled Protestants as heretics just because they would not bow to the Pope and then actually burned so many Protestant martyrs at the stake even as they were declaring their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I almost could understand this kind of evil coming from the men at the top, but what about the masses of average people who were cheering them on as these saints burned alive. Today, I came very close to seeing how it happened. I saw how these masses of people closed their hearts and minds to the Word of God, and blindly following the teaching and orders of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, all the while stubbornly saying, “we are right because we are right, because we are Catholics, and that is just the way it is, and we won’t listen to anyone who says it isn’t so.”


48 posted on 03/16/2014 6:03:37 PM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

Addition to my above post.....
(sorry, the tears just made me forget to add this)

I bet Saint Patrick would agree with us that there is nothing that should stop us from proclaiming the gospel every chance we get, and no one so lost that there is not a chance that they might hear and be saved.


49 posted on 03/16/2014 6:07:21 PM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: SeekAndFind

“So, you call James Kennedy’s beliefs heretical”

Like the vast majority of multi-million dollar televangelists James Kennedy worshiped money.


50 posted on 03/16/2014 6:35:59 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant" - John Henry Cardinal Newman)
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