“We Are Church” Movement Leader Is “Shocked” by Her Excommunication

http://www.patheos.com ^ | May 22, 2014 | Kathy Schiffer

[NKP_Vet]

Martha Holzer, a senior leader in the dissident Catholic group We Are Church, is “shocked” that Pope Francis has taken the extraordinary step of excommunicating her and her husband Gert.

Pope Francis took this action after the pair “simulated the Mass”–that is, they regularly took part in “private Eucharistic celebrations” at her home with no priest present. The Church considers the simulation of the Mass a delictum gravius, or “grave delict”.

We Are Church, which has members in more than 20 countries, is notorious for its disregard for the priesthood–insisting, as they do, that all participate in the “priesthood of all believers” and that both men and women should be ordained to the ministerial priesthood.

Here in the United States, We Are Church’s member organizations are a Who’s Who of dissident groups including the American Catholic Council, Call To Action, Catholics Speak Out, Corpus, DignityUSA, FutureChurch, PaxChristi/Maine, the Women’s Ordination Conference, and others.

[Boogieman]

“Any “interactive” God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.”

Huh? You just conceded that God gave us free will, but then you want Him to step in and act like a babysitter when we exercise that free will in bad ways?

You can’t have it both ways. Either we get free will, along with the consequences, or it is just an illusion of free will.

[sigzero]

Wrong. It is a local church ordinance as is clearly demonstrated by passages about it in the new testament.

[rusty schucklefurd]

re: “The only way I can believe in God, is one who created the universe, gave us free will and then bailed out. Any “interactive” God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.”

So, if I understand you correctly, if God interacts with His creation, then you don’t want Him to allow for free will - because, if He does interact with creation, and He allows for free will, then He’s responsible for all the evil we do because He doesn’t stop it?

[Berlin_Freeper]

Catholic church doesn’t seem to think members of this priesthood are able to perform priestly duties.

Thank you very much for pointing to the error of your interpretation.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Any "interactive" God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.

You're assuming He "sat back" and did nothing, even though the scripture teaches that every catastrophe, every war, every death (for he ordains even the very second when it should happen) and, indeed, every good thing we receive too, comes from His power and will. Even the unleashed devil is only unleashed because God allowed it, and planned to use it to fulfill His own purposes. If God did not want to demolish us with so many dead, it would not have happened. We should take our calamities then as judgment and warning for even worse things, unless we repent.

[Sir_Ed]

Nope, you’re wrong.

I’ve seen God’s intervention in my life many times, including having my life saved from danger miraculously more than once.

He acts, and continues to act, since well after the creation of the universe.

Ed

[Mrs. Don-o]

As Catholics, they are frauds. As Protestants, they would just be Protestants.

[MHGinTN]

If your existence is used to continuously deal with the bad things being done by someone else, how God-like are you? If God were tempt-able, then He would be inferior to the one we call Satan. If God became relegated to dealing with all the evil men do via the urging of The Evil One, then how desirable would be a relationship with such a God?

[Mrs. Don-o]

True. It’s removal from the sacraments. But they seem to think they can cobble together their own sacraments, so what the heck?

[steve86]

Well he is still the Pope and as Pope Benedict taught, even by his resignation

I don't necessarily accept the validity of any papal appointment subsequent to (roughly) St John XXIII. Having said that, it is becoming increasingly evident that Benedict (who certainly wasn't a bad pope), was forced from the papacy by dark forces.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I’m not sure I understand your post, can you clarify?

[Claud]

Agreed on your second point.

To your first point, obviously Masses can be offered in people’s homes, outdoors, and in catacombs, so yes, that is not an absolute injunction. But Scripture doesn’t go into detail on the topic so it helps to also consult other reliable Christian writings of the time period.

Check this out, it’s an account of the Christian liturgy written by Justin Martyr around A.D. 150:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1763662/posts

[Boogieman]

So they are able to perform priestly duties then?

[Berlin_Freeper]

Only if you are going to pretend(?) to be stupid.

[VerySadAmerican]

He excommunicates someone for praying in their home yet keeps giving sacrament to Biden and Pelosi and the Kennedys. He has no gravitas with me.

[GeronL]

If you don’t believe priests are biblical, okay, but why pretend to be Catholics then? Start your own church.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Dear Boogieman, there's a priesthood of the laity, and then there's the ordained ministerial priesthood. Two different things. I'm sure St. Paul wouldn't have thought it was OK for people claiming "We're all preists" to have shoved out Timothy and Titus, who were appointed to the task by Paul and ordained by the laying on of hands.

It is evident that the Apostles had authority over the Church, and that authority was also given by the Apostles to bishops, priests, and deacons:

• "We beg you, brothers, respect those among you whose task it is to exercise authority in the Lord and admonish you; esteem them with the greatest love because of their work" (1 Thess 5:12-13).

These leaders were also given the authority to teach. Timothy and Titus were bishops who were repeatedly instructed to teach. The bishops, who ruled the Church and had a position of authority, were instructed to teach:

• "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching" (1 Tim 5:17).

It was the role of the bishop to teach the true gospel and defend it against false teachings:

• "In his teaching [the bishop] must hold fast to the authentic message so he will be able to encourage men to follow sound doctrine and refute those who contradict it" (Tit. 1:9);
• "Exhort and rebuke with all authority" (Tit. 2:5,15);
• "Instruct . . . command and teach . . . give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (1 Tim. 4:6,11,13);
• "Convince, rebuke, and exhort, with teaching" (2 Tim. 4:2);
• "Teach and exhort" (1 Tim. 4:2).

They received these truths and this authority from the Apostles:

• "Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophesy with the laying on of hands of the presbyterate" (1 Tim. 4:14);
• "Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me" (2 Tim. 1:13);
• "Guard the rich deposit of faith" (2 Tim. 1:14).

Not everyone was authorized to be a teacher. There were only "some teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28-29; Eph. 4:11), who were the bishops and elders (priests) of the Church.

[Claud]

As Catholics, they are frauds. As Protestants, they would just be Protestants.

Or possibly some strange hybrid.

Are there any Protestants that deny Holy Orders but yet believe in the Real Presence? That laymen can confect the Sacrament?

From my reading, Communion seems to occupy the same semantic space in their minds as a sacramental does in ours. By that token, yeah, sure why can't anyone do it? It'd be like saying only priests can bless themselves with holy water or do the morning offering. It's bread before and bread after...just special bread.

This lady is perhaps something different if she believes she is transubstantiating the thing. Does she think her ordination gives her a power that I don't have?

[Boogieman]

Doesn’t seem like much of an answer.

[Boogieman]

“Dear Boogieman, there’s a priesthood of the laity, and then there’s the ordained ministerial priesthood. Two different things. I’m sure St. Paul wouldn’t have thought it was OK for people claiming “We’re all preists” to have shoved out Timothy and Titus, who were appointed to the task by Paul and ordained by the laying on of hands.”

Oh sure, I understand the Catholic view on the matter. I just think it’s silly for them to concede in their catechism to the existence of a universal priesthood, but then to say that priesthood is essentially meaningless, being barred from actually doing much of anything priestly.