Did Kate Kelly’s Local Leaders Follow the Handbook [Lds leaders circumvent established procedures]

RationalFaiths.com ^ | June 17, 2014 | James Patterson

[Colofornian]

On the one hand, the Mormon Church is a complex history of edicts issued from "on high" -- and I'm not talking about the Mormon gods and their councils.

On the other hand, I have the Mormon Church Handbook of Instructions referenced in this blog: It is indeed quite reflective of the Mormon Church's highly bureaucratic, legalistic ways.

And hence, in this case the "snare" -- as the Mormon Church seeks to simply dismiss some of its louder members by edicts from "on high." ... All as the Mormon Church Handbook of Instructions shows it's all to be done at the local level.

The timing of Kate Kelly's ex-communication -- coupled with other louder Mormonites (John Dehlin, Alan Rock Waterman) shows that indeed this is all a purge from "on high" -- in contradiction to locally-driven ex-communications. See, for example: 476-479: John Dehlin and Kate Kelly Discuss Possible Disciplinary Action (June 18, 2014)

And all of this hasn't been limited to those three prominent individuals: "According to Internet accounts there have been other people who have been spoken to by LDS leaders and some who support Ordain Women have had Temple Recommends taken away by their local leaders."
Kate Kelly Exed, John Dehlin & Rock Waterman Face Discipline (LdsRevelations.com, June 24, 2014)

Perhaps you are a Non-Mormon and from a Mormon perspective don't comprehend the magnitude of even taking away a temple recommend, let alone being ex-communicated.

#1
Mormon doctrine states that you need to reach the highest degree of glory to live with Heavenly Father forever. No temple recommend, no living with Him eternally in His presence. (How is that "heaven" if you can't live with the Glorious Host?)

#2
Mormon doctrine states that eternal families are ONLY for those who reach the highest degree of heaven. So from a Mormon perspective, no temple recommend, no "forever marriage" and no "forever family." In fact, without that temple recommend, your son or daughter might be married in the Mormon temple but you as a parent are shut out from viewing and experiencing it!

#3
Mormon doctrine states that without the highest degree of exaltation, you're supposed "eternal progression" toward becoming a god or goddess yourself will fail. No temple recommend, no godhood attainment for you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Welcome back Colofornian!

[Colofornian]

Thank you.

Two previous threads on these issues from this week:
Mormon Church Kicks the Beehive [ex-communications lined up] [From Mormonism Research Ministry's 'Mormon Coffee' blog]
Mormons oust Ordain Women's Kate Kelly over women priests

[Godzilla]

I guess she could be thankful the danites weren’t sent out for her.

[greyfoxx39]

The rules in the CHI are flexible. There has always been a "elite" class, from the very top to the neighborhood churches. The mormon church has ALWAYS been "it's not what you do, but who you are" and women are always at the very bottom.

You won't find a lowly truck driver in the position of ward bishop.

[Zakeet]

From: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

[Harvey has challenged Butch to fight for control of the Hole-in-the-Wall gang]
Butch Cassidy: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out.
Harvey Logan: Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!
[Butch immediately kicks Harvey in the groin]
Butch Cassidy: Well, if there aint' going to be any rules, let's get the fight started. Someone count. 1,2,3 go.
Sundance Kid: [quickly] 1,2,3, go!
[Butch knocks Harvey out]

---

Dear Colofornian,

Are the Kate Kelly circumstances really that much different than the scene depicted in the movie?

If not, can you really expect a much different outcome?

/Zak

[ravenwolf]

I don`t think there is any law that says she has to stay with the Mormon Church, if she don`t like it why didn’t she just leave?

On the other hand if she is a Mormon by being married to a Mormon man, then she should do what Paul told her to do which is just keep her mouth shut.

[Tennessee Nana]

From MormonCurtain

Kate Kelly’s Kangaroo Kourt
Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014, at 07:06 AM
Original Author(s): Kishkumen
Topic: JOHN DEHLIN AND KATE KELLY EXCOMMUNICATION

Now to the individual writings. Kaimi Wenger, over at the blog Times and Seasons makes a crucial point about the basic irregularity of the proceedings against Kate:
Today, the council announced that they had decided to excommunicate her, for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.”

This result is very troubling.

I have serious doubts about the substantive result here. I will set them aside for this post and instead focus on an important procedural matter: Sister Kelly was never informed that she was to be tried for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church,” was never given a chance to defend herself from that charge, and was ultimately excommunicated for an offense to which she had no way of responding. This is astounding.

As noted on her website and in the media, Sister Kelly was informed by e-mail, on June 8th, that the bishopric was considering church discipline “on grounds of apostasy.”

In response, she submitted a letter explaining that she had not committed apostasy. This was necessary as the court was scheduled after she had left the state, so she could not attend in person. In addition, Nadine Hansen wrote an excellent brief, examining the question in detail and concluding that Sister Kelly did not commit “apostasy” as defined in the church handbook.

The brief may have been persuasive, since the bishopric did not in fact find Sister Kelly guilty of apostasy. However, they ruled that she should be excommunicated for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.”

This is an exceedingly troubling outcome. To arrive at this result, the bishopric must have done the following:

1. Brought new charges against Sister Kelly, at the hearing - a hearing in absentia, where she was not present
2. Decided to deliberate on those charges
3. Did not inform her of those charges
4. Did not allow her to make any statement in her defense regarding those charges
5. Made a decision on those charges
6. Excommunicated her, based on those new charges

All within a single day, all without providing the least notice to Sister Kelly.

http://mormoncurtain.com/

[SZonian]

True, but like most agitators, they seek to change religions from within towards a more “progressive” position. I’m not a fan of agitators, especially in this sense, anti-Biblical. I’m no fan of LDS doctrine or teachings, but this woman is clearly agitating within the LDS. I don’t like it when Presby’s, Catholics, Episki’s, etc. do it, and I don’t like this either, even though it’s the LDS.

However, if the church has rules they’re supposed to follow with regards to discipline and possible ex-communication, then they should.

Otherwise, they undermine and compromise their own credibility. In addition, as the author pointed out, many of these regulations are confidential to all except the few who are in a position of authority. Very legalistic and exclusionary.

No spouse becomes a member simply through marriage...one has to take the “lessons”, request baptism and confirmation as member in order to gain membership into the LDS. However, there can be pressure applied to the non-member through emotional appeals to encourage them to join. They will use the “Families are forever” position and the potential guilt of having their spouse “married” to others once they are able to attain the Celestial Kingdom. There is also the temple wedding exclusion as well.

Any family member who does not hold a temple recommend is barred from attending the ceremony. So this becomes an “incentive” to join, so as not to miss out on significant family events. This is done via home teachers, visiting teachers, missionary visits, etc.

[Tennessee Nana]

1. Paul was a Christian not a Mormon

2 Paul was speaking to Christians not Mormons

2. Paul never said that women could not teach or preach in church or lay hands on the sick, or pray for anyone ...

3 Paul also told 12 year old boys to obey their mothers...Mormons have 12 year old boys lording it over all women including their own mothers

What would you do if your 12 year old son tried giving you or your wife orders backed up by the Mormon CEOs in Salt Lake City ???

that priesthood thingy in Mormonism is given to 12 year old boys along with authority to rule over grown women...

theres another difference with Christianity..

when the LORD Jesus Christ was 12 He obeyed his mother and father..

He was a grown man before He was given any authority and all of His Earthly life He was kind and courteous to His mother the Virgin Mary...

but not in Mormonism

12 year old boys are taught that they rule over all women...

because their priesthood idiocy gives them that so called “right”

[Colofornian]

Vanity just posted: Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]

[ravenwolf]

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say about the Mormon Church although most of the ones I have been around and even lived in the same house hold with try to raise the kids right, the exception is religion in place of faith.

Religion is also the theme in many other Churches but to a lessor extent.

This we disagree on.
2. Paul never said that women could not teach or preach in church>>>>>>>

1Cotinthians 14
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

What would you do if your 12 year old son tried giving you or your wife orders backed up by the Mormon CEOs in Salt Lake City ???>>>>>>

I have never saw that situation but there would be some butt kicking.

He was a grown man before He was given any authority>>>>>>

You are right and so many and not all just in the Mormon Church start trying to make the young into so called professors of religion before they are even dry behind the ears.

because their priesthood idiocy gives them that so called “right”>>>>>

This gives them power which makes every thing else including faith secondary.

[ravenwolf]

No spouse becomes a member simply through marriage...one has to take the “lessons”, request baptism and confirmation as member in order to gain membership into the LDS.

---

You are right, some that I know became members of the Mormon Church just be cause their wife or husband was a member.

I also know some one who was a Mormon all of his life, he denounced the Mormon Church and married a seventh day Adventist woman and they have been together about 45 years.

But it does strike me as odd that any one would fight tooth and nail to stay in a Church or anything they disagree with unless they are making big bucks..

I also am not a fan of Mormon doctrine, in fact I am not a fan of religion in the strict sense of the word.

[SZonian]

From what I can gather, she’s only disagreeing with one component of church doctrine...not to say she isn’t with others. I don’t know.

But as a former mormon married to a mormon, I can understand the draw in remaining a member, especially if one is a BIC or very long time member. The doctrine and all the trappings of LDS holds a special appeal if it’s all one knows...very hard to cut ties unless something dramatic has occurred.

Congrats to your acquaintance/friend on their marriage...me and my wife are approaching our 25th, even with our doctrinal differences! ;^)

[laotzu]

CAUTION!! CHRISTIAN BASHING THREAD!!
This thread does not praise God. It weakens faith.

[Colofornian]

...the bishopric did not in fact find Sister Kelly guilty of apostasy. However, they ruled that she should be excommunicated for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.” This is an exceedingly troubling outcome. To arrive at this result, the bishopric must have done the following:
1. Brought new charges against Sister Kelly, at the hearing - a hearing in absentia, where she was not present
2. Decided to deliberate on those charges
3. Did not inform her of those charges
4. Did not allow her to make any statement in her defense regarding those charges
5. Made a decision on those charges
6. Excommunicated her, based on those new charges
All within a single day, all without providing the least notice to Sister Kelly. http://mormoncurtain.com/

All more proof that the Mormon Church general Authorities are corrupt to the core. They think they can play hardbill at whim and will and that it somehow won't be called out in this internet-laden world?

The next question is: Will the average Joe Blow Mormon -- those that supposed "sustain" these corrupt General Authorities -- "go along" with it vs. ...
...making waves...
...risking their own temple recommend...
...or indirect threatened religious court marshal???

If they quietly go along, they are part of the corrupt problem.

[Elsie]

This thread does not praise God. It weakens faith.

This thread does NOT ignore MORMON Heresy! It exposes it!!!

[Colofornian]

It weakens faith.

No apology there.

Misdirected "faith" absolutely needs to be redirected to a strong foundation.

Misdirected faith, strong or weak, is one of the foundational problems to begin with.

Btw, why does this post of yours ONLY show up on Mormon threads?

Where is it on Islamic and Scientology threads?

Or is it that you hypocritically sanction the "weakening" of faith in the gods of Scientology and Islam, after all?

[Elsie]

Sometimes eloquence is simply stated...

[Colofornian]

I don`t think there is any law that says she has to stay with the Mormon Church, if she don`t like it why didn’t she just leave?

I don't think there was any "law" that Martin Luther had to remain in "THE" church, either. Just because Luther saw abuses and a need for a reformation didn't equate to him starting a new church. He never sought to do that, and still considered himself part of the Church Universal.

('Twas his "Lutheran" adherents who deemed it to be a "separate" church after Luther's death)