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Locked on 12/11/2015 9:03:03 AM PST by Jim Robinson, reason:
Last word on the issue at post 435. |
Posted on 12/09/2015 1:36:26 PM PST by NYer
The Catholic Church has never suggested that she didn’t need a savior.
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Wrong. The article says that Catholics claim she was conceived without sin. Anyone who can pull that off doesn’t need a savior.
“My soul praises the Lord; my heart rejoices in God my Savior, because he has shown his concern for...”
Mary called him “God my Savior,” in her song because she recognized her need of a savior as well.
And she wasn’t without fault; Jesus had to correct her / rebuke her at the wedding when he turned water into wine.
She was far better than average, but not perfect.
Total Goddess worship, it’s bizarre.
To postulate that Mary was born sinless is to say God DIDN’T need Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, His death and propitiation, for...if God was able to save Mary without the crucifixion, He could have saved EVERYBODY without the crucifixion!
And, to say Jesus couldn’t have been born in a sinful vessel, well, did that mean Elizabeth, Mary’s mother, was ALSO born sinless? If Mary needed to be born sinless to hold Jesus, then Elizabeth ALSO needed to be born sinless to be a vessel for Mary’s birth!
And Elizabeth’s mother, didn’t SHE also, need to be born sinless??
Total absurdity...
Ed
Personally, I would probably end up browning off the perfect-Mary Catholics a bit by pointing out that Mary couldn’t quite resist being the proud Jewish mother at the wedding at Cana. She was “full of grace” which usually kept that kind of thing constrained (and a good thing too, or she would have been quite the trial and nuisance to her Son) but nobody said sinless. Looking at how God’s grace addresses sin is one of the largest wonders in the world. This gave an example of it, without overdoing it.
“the lyrics depend upon the dogma of the Immaculate Conception being false”
Yep! Good song.
The Kenny Rogers version of “Mary Did You Know” was popular 30 years ago. It is also lovely.
I far prefer it over Aiken, because all I can see of the man is his male “partner” and baby, the opposite of the mother-father family even the divinely created Jesus was raised in.
“But if Mary is a sinner in need of a savior, then she cannot be the worthy vessel in whom the All-Holy God takes on human nature as the Word-Made-Flesh.”
The truth: Mary is a sinner.
The truth: God chose a sinner to be the month of His Son, Jesus Christ.
The truth: If Mary was sinless (as Catholicism teaches), then would not her entire lineage have to be sinless? All the way back to Adam and Eve, who we know were not sinless?
The teachings of Catholicism are very strange.
Because they think it somehow disparages Mary, which it doesn't.
On this point, my Catholic friends and I disagree.
I like the song. A lot.
actually, like all OT women, she was found righteous in childbirth.
Tossing out a big chunk of red meat to us poor protestants. I hope no one takes the bait.
I wouldn't use the word fault so much as ignorance and presumption (yes, a sin.) There were several instances when she and Joseph second guess their Lord in his mission: when he was teaching in the temple as a child and they chided Him; when they sought him out to take him away from teaching the multitudes, saying he had lost his mind; and the wedding event that you mentioned.
And we cannot forget the words from the lips of Jesus himself: "Who is my mother?" "These...."
She was indeed conceived without sin. That’s how God saved her. She didn’t “pull that off” herself.
What is wrong with asking the questions? what if they are rhetorical? Or could they just have been written in the form a question for people find the truth?
Wow, the song is that old? I thought maybe a few years...
The angel Gabriel said to her, “Hail, full of grace.”
If one is ‘full of grace’ that means that there is no sin within them, for grace is there in its place.
You might want to go back and read Luke 1 again.
You've made a valid point there, fwdude.
Jesus was and is Mary's Savior, as she said. Yet ever before she conceived Him in her womb, she was "full of grace" (as God's angelic ambassador called her, Kecharitomene) --- "she who has already been fully graced". Gabriel described her as full of grace, not full of sin.
What can we reasonably conclude from this apparent paradox? It's that God's co-eternal Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, had a way to save Mary before Her took His flesh from her, and before she even came into existence.
"He who is holy has done great things for me!"
It would have to have been when she received her human nature, as every one of us does, at conception. Because her human nature --- which she shared with her Son --- was a pure and perfect human nature, like that of primordial Adam and primordial Eve in Eden, not yet ruined by sin. Jesus is perfect in His Hiumanity as well as in His divibity.
Rgus Mary had to be uniquely pure in her human nature: as the Angel Gabriel said, "Kecharitomene."
Chapter and verse, please?
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