Dynamic Salvation

Lambert's Library ^ | 8/11/02 | Lambert Dolphin

[P-Marlowe]

I think the whole problem in regard to the "easy beliveism" issue is one of emphasis and definition. Going forward at a Billy Graham crusade for many people is the point of salvation in their lives. For others it is merely a response to a hypnotic suggestion and a hope that if they respond to the call they will be purged from their road to hell. The value of the response is predicated on the sincerity of the response. Jesus said to follow him. To follow requires that we move our feet, or at least jump on the train.

Jesus refers to the road to eternal life as being narrow and the road to destruction as being wide. Hence we must recognize that if we are headed to eternal life we are on a road. It is not the "step" to eternal life. It is the road. Now we can travel that road by walking with the Lord, or we can jump on the donkey that He rode in on. Either way it is clearly more than a step. For the theif on the cross the road was short. For the 10 year old who goes forward at a crusade and then lives to be 100, it is a long road.

We must recognize that we will often stray from the path. Indeed we will often get lost. But to the Lord we are not lost, because if he is our shepherd and if we are his sheep, he will find us and drag us back to the narrow road.

There have been long periods in my life where I have been off the path. Jesus always finds me, even when I am hiding. Hence I can still have the assurance of Salvation, knowing that when I am lost, he will call, and whenever he has called, I have returned to the fold.

I think a lot of the fallen away converts were never converts in the first place. And a lot of the fallen away converts have just left the path for a season and Jesus will find them and carry them back to the fold.

But I think it is very important that we do not discount every Billy Graham crusade "convert" merely because many do not stick with the program. Those who don't were probably not serious in the first place. If they are on the narrow path, Jesus will see to it that they stay there. The crusades are a good place to take the first step on the road. I am certain that there will be millions of souls in heaven who will point to an altar call as the first step on their road to eternal life.

[drstevej]

Are we not really talking about the doctrine of assurrance? If we agree that all who are justified will be glorified, then the question becomes, "How do I know I have believed with the result that I am justified?" Right?

I agree that we should discourage people from equating walking an aisle or praying a prayer as the same as saving faith.

***I think a lot of the fallen away [professed] converts were never [really] converts in the first place. And [that] the fallen away [professing] converts [who are genuine converts] have just left the path for a season and Jesus will find them and carry them back to the fold.***

I agree with my clarifying insertions.

[drstevej]

***If they are on the narrow path, Jesus will see to it that they stay there.***

Historical note. George Whitefield would note in his journal after a meeting something like this... "Three hundred people were hopefully converted. When he later saw them walking with Christ he was assurred that their profession was genuine.

[wai-ming]

Going forward at a Billy Graham crusade for many people is the point of salvation in their lives. For others it is merely a response to a hypnotic suggestion and a hope that if they respond to the call they will be purged from their road to hell.

When I "accepted" Christ, I was told that was it: I was saved. "Believers go to heaven; non-believers go to hell." Period.

If what you and the article are saying is true ("belief" alone does not save us, we must keep "working" at it, endure to the end, etc.), then "easy-believism" is very deceptive marketing on the part of Christian crusaders. The old bait-and-switch technique. They get you in, using the "just believe and you're saved" ploy; you later find out that your salvation is conditional: you have to attend their church, give them donations, perform service for them, etc.

If I joined on the basis of the OSAS (once saved always saved) philosophy, do I now have to subscribe to the "dynamic salvation" theory or risk losing my ticket to heaven?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The value of the response is predicated on the sincerity of the response.

All due respect, there you have the arrogance of Arminian salvation...the "value" of Christ's sacrifice is determined by human beings and their "responses" to it.

Eternal Security is logical and true because God aleady knows which of us He has blessed with faith and who will share eternity with Him.

If it is set in God's mind, why would you doubt it?

[xzins]

There is no divergence from the truth of the bible. Believers do go to heaven and non-believers do go to hell. FOR US, time sorts out those who were truly believers because we can see what comes of the faith they said that they had. God, however, knows from the beginning who is sincere. It is those who are justified.

[xzins]

If it is set in God's mind, why would you doubt it?

I would think that even calvinists must admit that from THEIR PERSPECTIVE they don't know who has truly believed. I think Rnmomof7 has long been an advocate of one's life being the proof that a sincere confession of faith was made.

From GOD'S PERSPECTIVE, however, even for the Arminian who believes that God foreknew instead of foreplanned, God KNOWS who the true believers are.

I think that's what the parable of the sower speaks to. I will get in trouble with my arminian friends for saying that the TRULY BELIEVING will not fall away and that the proof of that is that a true believer CAN return.

False believers go back to the world. They might continue in church (wheat/tares) but they KNOW what undercurrents are in their lives. It might be secret to the rest of the church, but it isn't secret to GOD and to THEM.

[wai-ming]

Believers do go to heaven and non-believers do go to hell.

Simplistic statements like this are shallow and misleading.

By this definition, Hitler, a believer, would be in heaven, while his six million Jewish "non-believer" victims would be in hell.

Thanks for adding the elaboration on what constitutes a "believer." That makes a lot of difference.

Nevertheless, many people are brought into Christianity on the (false?) assumption that all they have to do is "believe" and they get a "get out of hell free" card.

[xzins]

The bible itself does not modify the word "believe" by adding the word "truly" every time "believe" is used. The only instance that comes to mind is Philip and the Ethiopian. Normally, it just uses the word "believe."

When we read "believe" in the bible, it is reasonable to expect in most cases (unless context demands otherwise) that it is speaking of true belief rather than false belief.

Therefore, every time I say "believe" I shouldn't have to go on to explain that I mean "true belief" rather than shallow belief or false belief.

There are no unbelievers in heaven; no believers in hell.

[Uri’el-2012]

When I "accepted" Christ, I was told that was it: I was saved. "Believers go to heaven; non-believers go to hell." Period.
......................................
If I joined on the basis of the OSAS (once saved always saved) philosophy, do I now have to subscribe to the "dynamic salvation" theory or risk losing my ticket to heaven?

24 posted on 10/2/02 9:19 AM Mountain by wai-ming

If you are a follower of Jesus the Christ, have you considered His Commandments.

Jesus the Christ only asked you to do two things

Follow His commandments and preach His Word

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “`Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ [Deut. 6:5]
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: `Love your neighbour as yourself.’ [Lev. 19:18]
Matthew 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven
and on earth has been given to me.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them
in [Or into; see Acts 8:16; 19:5; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13; 10:2
and Gal. 3:27.] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded
you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Are you doing either or both ?

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

[wai-ming]

Jesus the Christ only asked you to do two things
Follow His commandments and preach His Word
Are you doing either or both ?

I try my best to "follow His commandments" (but I am nowhere near perfect in that regard.) As for "preaching His word," I don't believe I have the appropriate qualificiations.

This begs the question: Do not "following the commandments" and "preaching His word" constitute "works"? If salvation is dependent on faith, and not works, then doesn't that nullify the effect (as far as my salvation is concerned) of doing either or both?

[fortheDeclaration]

There's plenty of reason to be wary of the doctrine of "eternal security."

There is nothing to be 'wary' about the doctrine of eternal security.

Any doctrine can be twisted, as is Justification by faith without works!

Do we say, 'we should be wary of Justification by faith', no, we explain it!

What eternal security does is remove the fear from ones life regarding their salvation.

We are to fear however, discipline from God when we do not produce fruit (Heb.12:6)

As for it leading people to believe they are saved when they aren't, the Bible tells us that a believer will be assured of his salvation and can know if he is saved (1Jn.5:13).

However, if he becomes a reprobate he will begin to doubt his salvation as will others (James.2:17-24, and will suffer loss of many things in this life and the next (Gal.6:7, 1Cor.3:13-15)

[fortheDeclaration]

Puritan author John Bunyan's (1628-1688) popular book Pilgrim's Progress, (http://www.ccel.org/b/bunyan/progress/title.html) was the believer's bedside companion to the Bible in early American life at least until the frontiers had been settled. Salvation was seen by Bunyan as a perilous journey, but "he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

Bunyan was a Calvinist.

Now, did he believe that 'he who endures to the end will be saved' or one who endures to the end knows that he is saved!

The difference is important, since the Calvinist view of 'eternal security' is finding out if one is really the elect or not and that is what 'perserverance' is suppose to reveal to them.

Thus, the Calvinist produce fruits to show they are saved, the Arminian produces fruit to stay saved, the believer in eternal security produces fruit because he is saved.

[RnMomof7]

This will surprise you but I heard a Calvinist give a sermon on the need for Holiness..that one is not savecd unless he is living a holy life

Now of course he was not saying that the failure to live a holy life cost you your salvation..only that holiness is not an option it is a biblical command..and a mark of our conversion...

[RnMomof7]

This made me think of a Radio show in our area..Last night show made me LOL

The name of the show is "Talk from the Heart" it is pop psy mixed with Jesus show

The caller was lamenting her difficut life (typical) I missed the early part but where I came in it seems this woman had several children with different men...( I do not know if she had married any of them). One had just walked out . I think she wanted him back , at least that was the "drift" I got. She was worried because of her loss of security..she wanted ideas and reassurance..

So the hostess kept asking her if she wanted to "ask Christ into her life"

The honest if immoral woman kept saying things like if it will give me security . That is why I called"

The hostess kept trying to get her to say she wanted Jesus ..finally they had some kind of meeting of the minds (I did not hear the woman say clearly that she was desiring God)

So the sinners prayer began

A paraphrase here

"Father I thank you for loving me. I am sorry I made mistakes and I ask you to forgive me and come into my life. ..etc etc...

Yep no one sins anymore..they just make "mistakes"

Now I can not read that womans heart..but I did not hear a repentant heart .I did not hear a submissive heart..I heard some one that needs Gods help right now and the magic prayer just might do it

How different from Peters call to conversion

Act 3:17   And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.   

  Act 3:18   But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.   

  Act 3:19   Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

     Act 3:20   And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

  Act 4:9   If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

     Act 4:10   Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.   

  Act 4:11   This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.   

  Act 4:12   Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Repent and Believe

No "mistakes" for Peter

[RnMomof7]

I thought you believed in eternal security..is this a doctrinal shift?

[xzins]

I believe in eternal security only for true believers. By their fruits ye shall know them.

no believers in hell; no unbelievers in heaven

[RnMomof7]

I think the warning passages are directed to mostly Jewish people who are intellectually convinced that Christianity is true, but have not yet fully come to Christ in true saving faith. These are they who are in danger of falling back/away from Christ, with no subsequent opportunity for salvation.


That is my understanding..that letter unlike others is not written to "believers". These were people that had not been converted..They had a foot in each camp...

[xzins]

What eternal security does is remove the fear from ones life regarding their salvation.

I'm not convinced that's a good thing. The sinful nature continues to exert its power. "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

ftD, I believe in eternal security for those who are true believers. But I believe in eternal vigilance for those who are true believers. "The bridegroom cometh." Pray you have oil in your lamp.

[RnMomof7]

That is the danger of "easy believism." Some seem to receive the word with joy, but then they fall away. If we've told THOSE peoplE that they're "eternally secure," then we've done them a disservice. Apparently, they're in desperate need of initial salvation. And here they are thinking they've got a fire insurance policy.

ahhh The troubles of Arminians...If it is man that saves maybe he screwed up...then someone will burn in hell because of me...

Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.