Posted on 05/31/2003 10:42:16 AM PDT by tame
Any since you're criticising, any criticism of "join the f*cking crowd, Kemosabe." or do you approve?
Just because you start a thread does not mean it is yours to moderate.
Sounds like someone is trying to moderate by instructing tame on who he should ping. Any port in a storm, I guess...
Personally, I can totally understand why tame would not ping a presbyterian who writes things such as join the f*cking crowd, kemosabe". I wouldn't either. Someone who uses that language in the name of Christ on a sensitive thread like this has forfeited the "courtesy".
It seems you condone that language. If you really indicated that you were done with this thread, maybe you should stick to your word.
I guess some of you are trying to make sure of that. BTW, I didn't know that its okay to use words like "F*cking" just because we're not in a pastor's office. Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should watch our testimony, huh? Or is that your view of compassion?
It's both/and, not either/or. They are not mutually exclusive. For instance, when you go to a pastor's office or a hotline they will (If they are full of truth and love tell you that suicide is not an option, and they will go through all the reasons stated on this thread, but they will also empathize and sympathize, or at least hopefully refrain from cursing at you in your time of severe depression.
Do you want sincere and loving or do you want right?
I didn't think I had to choose between them--I want sincere, loving truth, and I r4eceived it from so many on this thread. I've also received some great links, advice, and support which was my goal. I need the support and prayers to continue as this is very serious, but with God on our side we will prevail.
What some of us were reacting to was the way that some have expressed things that I would agree with. Not the fact that they did express some things.
When dealing with severe depression, we need the truth, and Jesus made it clear that the truth should not be devoid of love. Some of the cursing and anger by some just does not seem to come from that attitude.
I must politely disagree with you, Becky. tame has not rejected the kind and loving advice. In fact, if you read the thread you will see that he specifically gives thanks and accepts it. Look, we cannot forget the seriousness of what is being discussed--the pain tht tame and Joey are dealing with. One of the first rules of counseling (be it pastoral or otherwise) is the wisdom of love in pratice...that is, a sensitivity and compassion to those being advised. I don't think the cursing should be discounted. tame's reaction to such brutal words simply does not equal a rejection of much of the advice on this thread.
tame would be the first to tell you that. He's a sensitive and caring person who wants what is best.
Your bedside manner, on the other hand, will work with some but not others. All you can go with is your gut feel. One of your objectives, I would think, is to prevent the suicide from taking place.
Now....your language. When do you think crudity violates the biblical prohibition against "crude speech?"
As we know sometimes we need to cut through the muck and get to the heart of the matter..
Truth may not always be popular..but truth is not arrived at by a vote..the truth is the truth
One does not gain his salvation by works or lose it by works ..Jesus died for our sins past , present and futrue.
Sucide is often threatend to manipulate others , (to get attention or to change a mind) ,sometimes to punish others (I will show them)
I worked in the mental health field for 15 years Becky...I was charged by law to correctly assess the sucide risk .
I would think that IF this man is really at risk Tame would call the police that will be very glad to take the man away to a place for observation, where he will be pumped with meds etc..
Quite frankly if Tame is not doing anything he does not REALLY think his friend is serious
Never would the Lord use language nor encourage language like that to be used.
All this rhetoric is the world speaking and has nothing to do with hearing the council of the Lord!
The world uses coercion to get one to submit and to feel less than dirt!
People are in this state because they feel unworthy already the seperation is so great the void seems hopeless.
The Lord touches our hearts and minds with Faith, Hope and Charity, longs for us to take hold of His hand to lift our thoughts and feel His Love!
***
How gentle God's commands! How kind his precepts are! Come, cast your burdens on the Lord And trust his constant care.
Beneath his watchful eye, His Saints securely dwell; That hand which bears all nature up Shall guard his children well.
Why should this anxious load Press down your weary mind? Haste to your Heav'nly Father's throne And sweet refreshment find.
His goodness stands approved, Unchanged from day to day; I'll drop my burden at his feet And bear a song away.
You are absolutely correct. I almost cried when I saw how mean and disrespectful drstevej, OrthodoxPresbyterian and one or two others were toward tame.
I gather you are LDS, while I am Baptist. Although I severely disagree with your theology, I would like to offer you my sincerest apologies on behalf of my fellow Christians (presbyterian, etc.) for the behavior they have displayed here.
I think you are a womderful woman based on the posts I've read from you in the past. Now, you may have assumed I have not done anything, or that big steps have not been taken with Joey. Without giving too much personal info, let me just say that assumption is incorrect.
Dr. Setve...I'm not sure if you are a doctor or if you are what kind of doctor you are, it's so hard to tell on line, people give themselves all kinds of names (I'm not a "bomb" obviously, it's a play on words). So I don't want to superceed anything that you might be giving as *free professional advice*.
I pinged you (and tame) to a thread that I have, which is active off and on, for people who are VERY familiar with dealing with issues like this, myself included. I'm not a medical professional, but Lord knows I've seen enough doctors with my daughter in the last two years to be one by osmosis of information.
Tough love has a time & a place...so does *group hugs*. However, in skimming back through the posts (and perhaps I've missed something) I don't think tame wanted any of you to solve his problem with his friends....what I think he is asking is philisophical...he's looking for philisophical/theological answers, that's it.
I believe that debate/discussion can take place without people attacking each other. On the thread I pinged you to, Dr. Steve, we started that because when we try to discuss issues that face us, we get flamed out the wazoo....it's easy for people to attack someone when they aren't close to an issue, when they are on the outside, but walk a mile in their shoes, and then sit back, and think about your opinion and give it in a rational manner. I'm not saying you didn't, again, I just skimmed here. The point is, everyone gets very emotional and when emotions take over, logic goes out the window.
tame is looking for some discussion on "is suicide always wrong"....not "help me and my friend". Is it??? Is it always wrong??? I don't know, I'm not omnipitent. Ask 500 theologeans and I bet you'll get 500 answers. It's like I told tame on the side, I don't know if it's always wrong, but I do know it's never right.
I just prefer to discuss things with ration & logic, not with personal attacks and emotion. That's all. *yelliing* and emotional attacks NEVER win.
I'm on a short leash today, so I'll have to hurry.
First...here are my thoughts: God is the Author of life, and although it would not be the "unpardonable sin" to wrest control over that out of His hands, it would definitely be in direct opposition to the clear, stated will of God for your friend to do so. When at any time in history have you known someone to go directly against the revealed will of God and in so doing have made things better for people around him? (God can work things out to redeem the situation, but why be the cause of that in the first place?) Also, I would put before you the verse that says "Therefore, choose LIFE, that you and your children may live..." In other words, God's perfect will for us, as revealed in Scripture, is to choose life.
Lastly, I believe Starwind said it best so far (haven't read entire thread yet), so I'm going to repeat those comments here:
"The greatest good, that of exalting Jesus Christ and making disciples of all nations, is best served by the witness and testimony of transformed lives.
"For your friend to take his own life serves no purpose. True believers will know your friend denied Christ's forgiveness and His healing, transformative power. Non-believers will scoff and conclude your friend was another misguided person who placed his happiness on the empty promises of religion.
"On the other hand, your friend should consider what a powerful testimony he could give on Christ's forgiveness and healing in his own life. Further, God may have allowed these trials into your friend's life so that your friend, somewhere down the road, can be an encouraging counselor to other troubled souls to whom only he can relate and demonstrate to them that Jesus can help them as well.
"As DrSteveJ said, your friend needs immediate competent spiritual and medical help. He can be an example of an overcomer in Christ, or a succumber in the world. Which serves God better?"
My parting thoughts---he needs direct intervention, and if he can't even keep an appointment with a counselor, then it may be time for those around him to gather up the pallet and literally carry him to help (as those friends did for the man in the New Testament when they let him down through the roof so that he could be healed).
Those are my thoughts. I pray God will bring victory in this.
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