Bush: We're Going Back To the Moon, And Mars!

Associated Press | January 8, 2004

[Timesink]

WASHINGTON (AP) Bush to announce plan to send Americans to the moon and Mars, officials say.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Nano-fabrics can line up the electron clouds of their constituent components in such a way to create shielding greater than that of a foot of lead in a material less than a millimeter thick

Some trick considering it's the nuclei that take the hit

[singsong]

Sources stressed that under the new space plan NASA would have to abandon its current approach of maintaining separate programs for manned and unmanned missions.

This confirms my fears. There have never been any separation - besides separate accounting. Manned flights use all the automation they need plus all the data gathered by unmanned probes. It is ridiculus to tie up exploration to the slow moving design of human support systems. We can't even start that design before we know more about the conditions on the moon and Mars. My point stands taller: This is an attempt to attach hidden additional costs to unmanned exploration and will in effect kill it altogether. But what the heck, some people want to sell space soda for $10 mil a pop. And the damn machines are not buying...

[Reagan Renaissance]

In a finite world, do you want an efficient allocation of capital or would you prefer to spray money at any or all projects? Rifles are needed for long range work while shotguns are more suited for moving targets at closer ranges. Putting Congress in control is the equivalent of turning out the lights out in a roomful of poker players with the largest pot of the night on the table.

State sponsorship of science was high in the Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany. The United States may not be following precisely in their footsteps, but are you naive enough to believe that the United States will not have another FDR, LBJ or BC. All Hitlery needs is a cash cow that reaches from here to the moon or worse to Mars.

There might be far less money spent on science if government funding apart from defense spending was completely eliminated, but there is no reliable data that would remotely suggest that the advance of science would be interrupted. Common sense tells me the truth would be to the contrary. Government is the worst possible allocator of capital. It is precisely the difference between socialism and capitalism.

[Tennessean4Bush]

Listen, I agreed with your principle and stated so in no uncertain terms. I merely took exception in this case and cited why.

Now, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. Or, if you would like to confront my assertion directly as to why I take exception to this principle (the one we both agree on) in this particular case then fine, let's keep debating. But to contunue to restate your principle in various ways trying to convince me of it after I have agreed with you is silly and a waste of time.

[hripka]

If this is true, is there nothing Bush will not spend money on?

[RightWhale]

This is nothing short of idiotic.

Misinterpretation is common. We're going to establish a science station on the moon and gear up to fly-by Mars. NASA's work will be in support of that program. Anything that drains resources from that goal is out. The question now is which robots are aligned with manned exploration. Probably all are. So what's the problem?

[singsong]

The question now is which robots are aligned with manned exploration. Probably all are. So what's the problem?

Putting the cart before the horse is the problem. Unmanned exploration has its own ways. And only AFTER it is in advanced stage, one can start setting realistic goals for manned missions. We are far from it. If the science can be done remotely why risk another "we were wrong all along" fiasco? And oh, in office politics, "probably" has more meanings than I can count. See post 662.

[Technogeeb]

Some trick considering it's the nuclei that take the hit

Not for ionizing radiation. Some of the earlier generations of the concept (RST's Demron, for example, although it is still rather heavy at 1/8th the weight of lead for comparable shielding) are already on the market.

[RightWhale]

setting realistic goals for manned missions. We are far from it.

Whatever happened to the spirit of the 60s? We knew what we wanted to do and did it. Coming to an agreement at the funding level of what we want to do now will probably be harder since there are more options. Its comparing issuing specs to engineering departments telling them what to build to not being able to tell scientists what to think about. There's enough science in the past 30 years so we can choose to do some engineering projects now.

Manned missions are engineering projects, not science.

[tricky_k_1972]

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.

[RightWhale]

Amazing the attention span. 3 days and it's back to football.

[tricky_k_1972]

Yes the new craft is suposed to be a capsule, all the new programs for the CEV have been leaning that way in the recent weeks.

As for the 4 to 6 month round trip, the Promethious project (Jupitor Moons Mission) that has received increased funding in the recent months is based on nuclear ion propulsion and should cut doun transit time to weeks and months not years.

A new Ion engion has been developed that is at least 10 times as powerfull as Deep Space One's engion.

I beleive this has been planed for since the begining of the administration, anotherfollow on to a fathers dreams. Bush has been pretty consistant in this.

[RightWhale]

another follow on to a fathers dreams

Dubya as relief pitcher--the finisher

[singsong]

Whatever happened to the spirit of the 60s?

The Spirit is on Mars, doing just fine, thank you. You can enjoy the pictures on the other thread. It's a beautiful piece of engineering - you're right that we need it. Actually we have it and just need more of it - for now. Let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we?

[Phsstpok]

Mr. Heinlein sure knew what he was talking about, didn't he? We'll be there to stay someday. "We" will most certainly be humans, but they won't necessarily be speaking english. I'd prefer it if it were Americans, however. I'd really like it to be in my lifetime, though I know I'll never get to go.

[RightWhale]

We've been here before. 30 years ago we were ready. It's never been robots versus people, it's been lack of proof of water on Mars. The proof is in, so there is no reason to sit back and twiddle our joysticks any longer. The moon base should have been in operation for years by now, and without spending any more money than what was wasted on the Space Shuttle and ISS.

[tricky_k_1972]

One of my first real books was Have Spacesuit Will Travel, and it instilled in me a great love for science, space, and science fiction. I still think highly of that teacher.

I think Heinlein had the human condition down to an art. Did you know that he visited the old Soviet Union and comented on it (Did not think very highly of it, of course). he even evaluated the Soviets claims on population and food production and foud that they were, gasp, Lying.

[tricky_k_1972]

I think most sons wish to impress their fathers, I know I've often thought of it.

[singsong]

We've been here before. 30 years ago we were ready. It's never been robots versus people, it's been lack of proof of water on Mars. The proof is in, so there is no reason to sit back and twiddle our joysticks any longer.

Your enthusiasm is commendable, and may I say, contagious. Yes, it could (and should) have been done earlier. But it hasn't. A hard fact. I don't mind betting on horses, but I know this race better. You'll have to take it on faith.

---

The moon base should have been in operation for years by now, and without spending any more money than what was wasted on the Space Shuttle and ISS

Promises, promises...

[Phsstpok]

Did you know that he visited the old Soviet Union and comented on it

I didn't know that,but in reading several biographies it appears that he started out as a young socialist and... ahem... adjusted his thinking as he matured ;^>

I really think he saw himself in the character Jubal Harshaw, from Stranger in a Strange Land. One of my favorite curmudgeon's of all time. Plus, I liked his secretaries!