Angry cries of America's 'outsourced' middle class

The Arizona Republic ^ | 03.09.04 | E.J. Montini

[Beck_isright]

Among those who apparently didn't listen to the 43-year-old unemployed woman whose recorded message was posted online last week by The Republic were Arizona's Jon Kyl and John McCain, along with 24 of their Senate colleagues, all of them collecting fat government paychecks.

[SCalGal]

If she is really hungry, there are community pantrys and the like. When you are hungry, pride, politics and philosophy goes out the window.

Yes, I know. She'll get there when she's ready. Right now, she's still got pride, politics, and philosophy.

[Big Horn]

I still do not how you can have a free country and free enterprise and have laws that tell companies who and where they can hire people. The free market hurts some but it has made our country the best in the world.

[TXBSAFH]

I am not avocating laws to restrict companies in the private sector. But how about reducing regulation, tax incentives for hiring Americans and tax penalties for oursourcing. And in the Public sector make it quite clear that if you want AMerican taxpayers money you will have to hire the American taxpayer.

[Walkin Man]

Yes, you are crazy. You post in a conservative site, and advocate socialism.

Then you free traders must be insane. You and your ilk prop up a huge communist dictatorship that has threatened the USA with nuclear destruction on more than one occasion.

The "workers paradise" in Red China would have collapsed by now if free traders hadn't rushed in and rescued them.

You say you stand for freedom, while in reality you are standing on are the backs of slave laborers in Red China.

You free traders are arming and strengthen the dragon while at the same time declawing the eagle.

I believe history will record this time as one of the greatest mistakes ever made by free men.

Or maybe not as communist China will be writing the history books in the future.

[_Jim]

No --- you can't do free trade on your own apparently. They used to have these guys come over with trucks and ...

You'll have to post that part of the NAFTA agreement that prohibits what you 'say' it only 'may' prohibit -

- simply deducing that NAFTA prohibited such activities is, well, just guessing on your part ...

Collecting old tires and other 'junk' would also, I think, fall on the outer periphery of the economy insofar as NAFTA and trade goes ...

[Beck_isright]

" Or maybe not as communist China will be writing the history books in the future."

Based on some of the textbook stories I've seen, they already are.

[DanTheAdmin]

You're right. I lost a really good job in 1985, and I could find a similar position without moving - I had 2 little kids and a mortgage. I was upset and running out of cash - so I took on two full time jobs that, combined, provided enough to carry on. They weren't impressive jobs and it was exhausting, but I did it. Eventually, I found a great position in a different field and we ended up better off. It greatly impressed my new employer that I had taken on two jobs to make ends meet. It was the deciding factor in their choice.

Just some anecdotal evidence to support what Jorge was saying. YMMV.

[_Jim]

_Jim wrote:

"IT" ... what's that - a support department, an "expense"?"

Beck_isright wrote:

"And a production department."

Aha!

We are finally getting to the bottom of this!

It *is* a misapplication of the term "IT" and 'call centers' that we're seeing - and, a clear misunderstanding of each one's purpose!

It's just as I thought, people like Beck_isright are confusing and drawing NO distrinction between 'call centers', customer support centers and the actual "IT" (Information Technology) departments and each one's purpose ...

I would draw your attention, Beck_isright, to a number of posts on this subject in this thread that occurred prior to my present post which point out the distinction between 'call centers', actual IT and 'help desk' or 'tech help' activities ...

[NCjim]

I agree but we do NOT need the government subsidizing offshoring by removing its risk.

[_Jim]

It's no past era! Those willing and sexy young ladies waiting at Neil Bush's hotel room door were from no bygone era!

You don't know what you talking about.

I think that has been amply demonstrated ...

I worked for went to China before and after Nixon, and we saw their methods.

What was I talking about - a 'bygone era'? Here's my proof. You need to 'revisit' China and witness the changes that have taken place.

BTW - what's a 'retiree'? I've not had experience with that in my lifetime (so far)?

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

I get real tired of hearing this free trade propaganda BS...

Might as well get used to it, because it's all they have.

[bvw]

Well, I was under the impression you had once said you were retired ... still your word on that betters my "impression", for sure. Sorry for the mischaracterization.

In any case regarding the brother of the President of the most powerful nation ever in history, we, the US of A. What I said is from that brother, himself, in deposition during his divorce, as reported here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gossip/story/150848p-132934c.html
NY Daily News, 1 January 2004

Brown then interrogates Bush's about his various sex partners: "Did you pay them for that sex?"

Bush: "No, I did not."

Brown: "Pick them up in a sushi house?"

Bush: "No. ... My recollection is, where I can recall, they came to my room."

[Beck_isright]

"I.T." is a generic term applied to so many jobs which have nothing to do with the actual functions, it's pathetic. A "help desk" is technically part of this structure, but in some corporations it is considered customer service. Call centers in general are considered customer service functions. I.T. covers numerous areas and to make the discussion more factual it should be broken up into customer service functions, maintenance and service, and software/hardware development. It doesn't really matter since all of the above are being outsourced and insourced in larger and larger numbers.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

IBM and Oracle aren't offshoring people like that now.

That's right. They are now casting off people like me, an engineer with 16 years of experience and expert status in a specialized area of software development. I've had some positive responses for opportunity lately, though - from New Zealand.

[MissouriForBush]

Agree totally with your post #529.

But by the time the average American realizes the truth in what you say, I fear it will be too late.

[Orbiting_Rosie's_Head]

And so have housing prices (although rents are falling). How the government can claim we have sub 1% inflation is beyond me.

Microwaves go from $149 to $49 and it is hailed as a free market triumph. Meanwhile, I get to pay a half-million dollars for a house made of sawdust and glue with wages that are less than half of what they used to be. Sounds like a good trade-off to me.

[AuntB]

"On a happy note ... I got married in Sept."

Well, at least you're not having to go through this alone! Too bad a job isn't as easy to find as a wife, huh? LOL!

I thought I'd just die last spring when I had to sell my house, but things seem to work out. I LOVE it where I finally landed..peace and quiet..not an easy commodity...but absolutely NO jobs. Still looking, too!

[oceanview]

well, identify the organizations yourself. large companies have customer support, internal email and printer help staffs, administrative support, building maintenance, real estate and property management, purchasing, shipping and receiving. all are cost centers, so I guess that means they are all candidates for offshoring.

you are actually helping me make a point: if this offshoring stuff progresses to the full extent, US corporations will use foriegn labor for everything but the executive suite, legal and intellectual property, and sales and marketing (with an onsite tech support component). everything else can be provided with offshore labor. so if you take this to its logical extreme, you can see how many total jobs these companies could send offshore.

[TXBSAFH]

Free traitors are killing the American middle class.

[RockyMtnMan]

Offshoring has a "trickle-down" effect on all parts of the organization that previously supported the offshored group. If you offshore your engineering department you'll also need to move the admin staff, human resource, shipping/receiving, first/second tier management, help desk, network administration, and on and on and on.

I also alluded to a "trickle-up" type of effect that will cause positions like project managers and first/second tier managers to move closer to their new "offshore" team.

Offshoring does not produce new wealth here in the US it only increases existing wealth within the entity doing the offshoring and it's shareholders. Unless you have a significant capital investment with these companies you will not benefit directly from their efforts. In fact you'll end up paying higher taxes to support those who are no longer working or working at a rate of pay significantly less than before.

As for the blue collar folks out there, get ready to compete with all the previously employed white collar workforce. That's the new "trickle-down", overly qualified individuals competing for any available opportunity.