Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
exactly
I understand you to be paraphrasing what John stated (faith without works is dead), but I am unclear about your broad statement.
I acknowledge the God of Abraham is the only God.
Jesus is God's only begotten son, both man and God.
They are one with the Holy Spirit.
I know fall short and sin.
I know Jesus to have been sinless, and yet willingly paid the penalty for sin on the cross.
I have repented (and do so repeatedly, alas) ask, and have asked, Christ to forgive me, to come into my life, and be my master.
I have faith that He has done so, and his sacrifice will save me from my sins, not because I did anything, but because he loves me.
I am sorry, but your brush is awfully broad.
No link. it was months ago and it didn't matter enough for me to save it.
Actually, different denominations go to Hell for different reasons:
Catholics for self-abuse. (Their punishment is to be denied the Beatific Vision. Plus getting flogged with snakes.)
Anglicans for eating oysters with the dinner fork. (Their wine list will only have Ripple and Twister.)
Baptists for using the Flag as bunting. (When they get there, they'll have to play cards and dance to "Negro music.")
Just because they don't know the chapter and verse, doesn't mean a Catholic never heard of John 3:16. If they go to mass regularly, they hear it a couple times a year.
There are many passages in the Old Testament which are not part of the Sunday Catholic liturgical cycle (of scripture passages), since the Old Testament is so huge, but there are scant few passages of the New Testament which aren't.
"God so loveth the world that he gave his only Son that whosoever shall believeth shall have eternal life."
But you see, Catholics don't learn scripture verse by verse, rather they read entire passages at a time. So they also read: "but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God."
Yep. Must have been the fact that every Catholic I know can't really explain them either. Every time I asked a Catholic in regards to a question I would have in regards to the Catechism, they couldn't provide and answer. Often, they themselves don't know what is in the Catechism. I'll grant that is possibly due to bad teaching on the part of these who taught them, but that also shows that these members of the "flock" are trusting in traditions without understanding what they believe or understanding the meaning of the ritual.
I'll admit that in conducting my own research, I have come up with some understanding of some of the beliefs of my Catholic inlaws. Some teachings I can understand, others I see as contradictory to the Bible.
The real shame of it though is that most of my Catholic in-laws have no idea what is in the Catechism, or disagree with it themselves (And I'm not talking about a small family. My in-laws are solid German heritage. We're talking huge family). I'm talking about "hardcore" Catholics who attend Mass all the time and supposedly went through catechism training.
I'll share this with you. When my family went to the Catholic church, I discovered one day that my son (only age 5 at the time) was able to mouth most of the opening of mass along with the priest. When I asked him what it meant, he had no idea, he just knew the words. I have found that most of my in-laws are the same. They know the words, but either don't comprehend or don't really accept, they just go along with the ritual.
That's correct. And "Allah" is the Arabic form of the word "Elohim", which is the Hebrew word for God as used in the Hebrew Bible.
Don't know where that one came from (Roman Babylonian Brotherhood). But I'm sure it would be interesting to research....
Nothing is at once so entertaining and repulsive as the collision of abysmal ignorance and unfettered offensiveness.
In opening this discussion I know the man and have been to his services and he is very arrogant -- in a teeling service he said that no man could correct him but God alone that he answers to no one. (He was preaching on rebuke and correction "according to scripture." -- this make this man dangerous to himself and his congragation.
The story of sin begins in the garden of Eden and Paul the apostle tells us serveral important things that have been lost in the church for generations first that Christ is the second and Last Adam and that Adam is a type of Christ.
In order for me to do this discussion justice I would have to type quite a few pages and unfortunately I don't ave the time right now. But I will give you and outline
how could Paul suggest that Adam was a type of Christ? Jesus was not put in a garden, Jesus did not have a tree of the knowledge of good and evil or a tree of life to deal with Jesus did not marry a woman and sart a race of men.
Who was Christ? -- John the baptist declared "behold the lamb of God that takest away he sin of the world
In another place Jesus is called the lamb of God that was sacrificed from the foundation of the world.
The prophecies in the OT said he was to redeem the world and sacrifice himself for sin.
It is on this basis that Paul says Adam was a type of Christ and elsewhere that Christ was the second and last Adam.
So where is this? Did paul get this by visions in the third heaven -- maybe but there is a scriptural basis. Why then don't we see it. Because it is hidden and obscure amd becasue all the english versions of the genesis account of adam the garden and the fall are poorly translated
for example deep sleep is Nabu in the Hebrew in the septuagent its transalted as Ek-stasis the word means the prophetic spirit of God seized Adam -- and he began to prophesy. In the hebrew it does not say rib but from Adam's side the woman began to emerge like a simese twin(As adam prophesied) then the hebrew says God took that which grew in his hand and closed adam's flesh and formed it and brought it to the man -- this is what they were doing in the garden 24-7 when God was Adams father and adam was his son. So Adam still under the spirit of ecstacy calls this creature "Woman" or so the english says but the hebrew does not say that -- it is an unstranslated word -- and this word the linh pin on which paul declares Adam to be a type of Christ.
Woman is Alter of fire -- now Adam was a king and prist unto God Eve is the Alter of fire so whe do you need -- a sacrifice (Adam was to give himself for the woman but he could not for he loved his flesh (the woman)too much. Adam here is prophesying eves fall and need for redemption.
Chirst's words he who loved mother father sister brother . . . is not worthy of me = death = hell
He who loves flesh and world more than god =death = hell
Still under the nabu spirit of God Adam prophecises a familiar wedding phrase that there fore shall and young man leave his father and cleave unto his wife . . .
This verse our scripture pharisees tell us points to the blessedness of marriage -- To grasp how wrong this is we need ask only obne question who was Adams father -- God who did adam leave to cleave unto the woman God. Adam is prophesying his departure from his 24-7 relationship with God.
So Adam leave from being the son of God and Goes with the Woman and what does scripture say of his relationship from that point -- that it was radically decreaed so that the father only came by now at the cool of the day.
So lets now discuss the first sin of Adam Adam the king and prist of God in the earth was to be so unto God not unto the woman. Adam did not bring the woman into the same relationship that he had, had with the father -- again we have proof in the cool of the evening statment. Adam became the woman's preist and teacher but he was not called to do so. So the woman walked in a diminished relationship that depended on a man.
This happened in moses with Israel
This has happened also with the Church
Every beleiver is called to be a king and priest unto God but men have slavishly imitated their true father the fallen adam and they do the sin of Adam that is to make themselves as kings and prists over men and make themselves as mediators. Hence we have in 200 AD the introduction of Levites a levitical priesthood(This event is recoeded in the writings of Origen commentary of the Gospel of John book 1)
The second sin of dam is recorded in the book of Job -- I'll leave you to find it
and we are all familar with his last and fatal sin.
So we are all the Children of Adam, we are all partakers in the tree of the knowedge of Good and evil and we are all hellbound. This is not a matter of choice or breeding or what church or religion that we may or may not belong to.
So into this picture comes Christ the second and last Adam who loved us and gave himself for us. Simple salvation is the thhirf on the cross but for those of us who live more is required of us than a simple one time confession of our lips.
If we are to be followers of christ = Christians what is required of us -- that we follow christ as the disciples did learn of him and live like he did. I follow the sins of adam that is allow a church denomination ministry or priest or preacher to be our priest unto God we walk not with christ but with a man or denomination = death = hell.
If we allow ourselves to be discipled to a church denomination ministry or priest or preacher church denomination ministry or priest or preacher we are not Christ's disciples == death = hell
Pail tells us that we are to be made partakers of Christ's portion not a church denomination ministry or priest or preacher portion as has been done for 1800 years in both the catholic and protestant churches
Now I beleive that God is infinitely merciful to his blind and deaf sheep -- but God will destroy all who set themselves up as kings and preists over his people.
The people of God are idolitrus adulterous stiff necked and hard hearted as the children of Israel
Man will worship any other man any denomination any creature or thing that they see rather than He who is invisible and created all that is seen.
Paul was battling these same things in his day -- He rebukes the corinthinas from head to foot about be carnal. He says he is glad he did not baptize a single member of the church that was trying to disciple themselves after paul apollos and cephas -- paul decalres did paul die for your sins? yet all these churches denominations ministries or priests or preachers act as if they can give you salvation as if they own it. Non of these things or people died for your sins and there fore none of them can save you. It is christ alone that can save the soul or cast it into hell. Therefore we ought to please christ not men.
But instead we follow the doctrines and traditions of men to our own damnation. There is none that cry out on the walls a warning to the poeple of God instead everyone goes own there merry way.
The church has become an Idol and as the Jews cried in the prophets the temple the temple of the Lord -- becaseu we have the temple we shall not be destroyed and no judgements shall come upon us. Even so thsie day christian cry the church the church our our denomination with its age old tradtions of men -- and becasue of this we will be spared the judgement and wrath of God.
God is going to destroy this idol that has lifted itself and exaulted itself in the name of Christ cathloic and protestant and there are those here that will read these words that shall see the beginning of that destruction meted out by the fourth beast of daniel. The time of the fourth beast is soon to come. And it shall trample and stamp upon -- the remanant or the residue
God will use it to satrt to uproot and burn the tares. I fear for the church and I fear for all believers because we have been sold a bill of goods.
when the early church fell do you suppose that the devil said they have fallen and can't get up? Dou you suppose that he said i'm going to be a nice guy and wait until 1500 AD or 1900 AD and start fighting again? He has been at work twisting every teaching and redefining every term in the bible imaginable to that it would seen impossible for the people at the end of the age to come into a true relationship with chirst and understand what God is saying in his word as regard to the requirements of that relationship.
Instead we have enless doctrine that leads nowhere in order to keep beleivers buzy all the days of their lives -- seeking truth but never coming to Him who is the truth.
God help us God open eyes! This generation is perishing before our eyes it has been found wanting before God and god is looking to another generation -- but already we are at work crrupting them with the sins of our fathers as was done to us.
the answer to going to hell is simple -- just keep on doing what you have always been doing and you'll get there
The answer to life is Jesus said take my yolk upon you and learn of me (his life his demonstration -- and do likewise .
Never did Christ say thou are saved or healed by your doctrine and they were not saved by faith alone but theri faith in him
What do we lack the "IN HIM" the being disciples of Him and walking in the light as He is in the light
Instead men want to get in by climbing over the wall or someother way -- Jesus is the gate Jesus is the door not some church denomination ministry or priest or preacher
You're right. That is a shame.
That is on my list of things to do — someday.
Before you read, pray for guidance and direction from God and/or Christ, if you are a Christian. Ask for protection in the event anything in it would lead you astray.
That is excellent advice, whatever I might be doing. (Personally, I am more worried about being led astray by the junk I might chance to see on the Internet, on TV, or in the movies than anything I might read in the Koran!)
Thank you. I try to show that verse to certain traditionalist Catholics, too. Those who won't hear it won't hear it.
The truth is that the Council of Trent did condemn "protestants," but Vatican II is also infallible, and calls Protestants our brothers in Christ. How can both be true?
When the Catholic Church condemned protestants in 1541, it meant by "protestant" those who had been in the Catholic Church and had left ("apostasized") to join a faction which was at the time warring against the Church. Today, when the Catholic Church refers to Protestants, it is referring to people who are continuing to follow the beliefs about Christ which they have received from their Father and Mother, whom they are commanded to honor.
According to the teaching of "sacraments of desire" in the Catholic Catechism, if a Protestant, by means of a belief in an un-Catholic doctrine, is impeded from faith in the Catholic Church, but loves Christ and seeks to do His will, he receives sacraments spiritually, and those sacraments do have effect. Baptisms by Protestants are considered effective for receiving the grace afforded by Baptism.
Gee, Rev. Franklin, I had never even considered that the path to salvation could be found in self engrandizement and hatred. Thanks for the tip.
Well, I should clarify: all those who don't accept Christ are still under the Law. (So go get circumcised, you heathen!) They also must follow the Law perfectly, in thought, word, and deed throughout their entire life.
Christians, in contrast, have an addendum to the contract -- all those that accept Christ don't have to follow the dietary, et al, portions of the law relating to being cleansed. They probably should follow the rest (the more substantive stuff) --- but if the mess up, they will be forgiven.
While this sounds easy, the Christians must also follow the Holy Spirit --- what I call the gut feeling of right and wrong --- which is sometimes quite a bit harder than the Law.
The "license-to-sin" argument to which you allude is old. Back in the early church --- I think in Ephisus (some port town) --- the Christians took their forgiveness as an excuse to have orgies at church. (I believe they were called "gnostics," but I could be confusing them with other heretics.)
That was frowned upon by the apostles.
And explained by Paul --- that, as a Christian one must strive to NOT to sin. You will fail. So repent and try again. With God's help you will do better.
And with the Holy Spirit's help you will WANT to do better, which is the most important part. I do not want to sin. It is a slap in the face of Christ, disrespectful of His sacrifice. It is another thorn on His crown. It is this inner change that makes me a better person than I was than before I was a Christian.
You gotta admit it's a lot to know off the top of your head. For example, I can't fully explain every Catholic belief off the top of my head -- I could probably do okay for a lot of things, but for a full and inerrant explanation, wow, that would require memorizing hundreds of thousands of words and likely getting some kind of degree in Catholic theology. (I can't recite the full text of the Bible either, believe it or not.) But I'm familiar with the beliefs and any beliefs that didn't seem obvious or logical to me I've looked into more closely to the point where I accept them as truth.
It's similar to mathematics, which I've also studied. Just because I can't reproduce a particular proof off the top of my head doesn't mean the theorem isn't legit. You study it, accept it, and move on.
Ideally we're supposed to be able to explain everything in order to evangelize. But most fall short of the ideal in many ways. And there is something to be said for coming to Christ with the faith of a child -- accepting and believing.
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