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US losing to India in Science
Indian Express ^ | 10 july 2005 | Retuers

Posted on 07/10/2005 4:51:09 AM PDT by voletti

More than half a century of US dominance in science and engineering may be slipping as America's share of graduates in these fields falls relative to Europe and developing nations such as China and India, a study released on Friday says.

The study, written by Richard Freeman at the National Bureau of Economic Research in Washington, warned that changes in the global science and engineering job market may require a long period of adjustment for US workers.

Moves by international companies to move jobs in information technology, high-tech manufacturing and research and development to low-income developing countries were just "harbingers" of that longer-term adjustment, Freeman said.

Urgent action was needed to ensure that slippage in science and engineering education and research, a bulwark of the US productivity boom and resurgence during the 1990s, did not undermine America's global economic leadership, he added.

The United States has had a substantial lead in science and technology since World War Two. With just 5 per cent of the world's population, it employs almost a third of science and engineering researchers, accounts for 40 per cent of research and development spending and publishes 35 per cent of science and engineering research papers.

Many of the world's top high-tech firms are American, and government spending on defense-related technology ensures the US military's technological dominance on battlefields.

But the roots of this lead may be eroding, Freeman said.

Numbers of science and engineering graduates from European and Asian universities are soaring while new degrees in the United States have stagnated -- cutting its overall share.

(Excerpt) Read more at expressindia.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: engineering; highereducation; science
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To: A. Pole

Then don't complain when Chindia, England, Japan, Germany and Israel are running the science and engineering show.


41 posted on 07/10/2005 7:19:02 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: voletti

I remember when we were falling behind the commies, because they graduated 10 times the engineers we did and twice the doctors. There's more to successful research than numbers. You need freedom, you need a culture that encourages creativity and risk-taking and a culture of second and third chances. No one matches the US of A for all of the above.


42 posted on 07/10/2005 7:25:59 AM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (Jabba the Hutt's bigger, meaner, uglier brother.)
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To: RFEngineer
The only thing discouraging US students from entering these fields is that it is hard,

This is not true. I know some high school students who love technology and are bright but are afraid of going into debt, wasting four years and not having the good career prospects. They are going to study safer fields (which they do not like).

43 posted on 07/10/2005 7:28:57 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: austinite
Anybody majoring in Engineering at this time is in for a rude shock upon graduation. I wouldn't recommend it.

what would you recommend? massage college? I hire computer engineers regularly, and starting salaries are $55K-$65K. I can't find enough PhDs at $150K and up. My last two hires are foreign nationals.
44 posted on 07/10/2005 7:31:45 AM PDT by frankenMonkey
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To: Seamoth
One way to remedy this situation would be to teach the sciences in proper order: first physics, then chemistry, then biology.

That would be the proper order. But math education is so pitiful that you can't teach physics first.

45 posted on 07/10/2005 7:31:50 AM PDT by Lessismore
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To: voletti

All very true.... And one major aspect of it is the fact that in the US, we limit the number of medical school admissions in order to reduce the number of doctors. Then because we don't have enough doctors, we import doctors from India, where they don't have such stupid policies.


46 posted on 07/10/2005 7:34:26 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: A. Pole

"I know some high school students who love technology and are bright but are afraid of going into debt, wasting four years and not having the good career prospects. They are going to study safer fields (which they do not like)."

What "safer fields" are they selecting? These poor kids have gotten bum advice. I wonder where they got it?


47 posted on 07/10/2005 7:44:34 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: stockpirate
Check your local High School's course list:
Art of many flavors,
20 foreign languages,
Psychology and Sports Medicine,
Crafts of many flavors,
Cultural sensitivities galore,

Why do you think 4.0 GPAs are a dime a dozen, compared to 35 years ago?
Wouldn't want to ask Johnny or Sally to risk learning something useful by taking a challenging course.
Then after forming this foundation of sand in High school, they go off to college where Mommy & Daddy pay for a diploma that has little chance of leading to a career.
(supplemented by "scholarships" awarded for great performance in meaningless courses.)
Don't waste your time telling me how beneficial these courses are. They are NOT part of the foundation of a solid education, which IS the responsibility of High school.
Leave the specializing and the fluff for college electives.
48 posted on 07/10/2005 7:45:12 AM PDT by G Larry (Honor the fallen and the heroes of 9/11 at the Memorial Site.)
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To: RFEngineer
What "safer fields" are they selecting? These poor kids have gotten bum advice.

Law, finances.

49 posted on 07/10/2005 7:46:39 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: SauronOfMordor

"An engineer needs to spend his 30's preparing to start his own business"

I agree. Like many fields, an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's. That doesn't mean they are unemployable, it means that they take their experience and perspective and evolve.....starting your own business is definitely one of those options.

Of course, the days of lifetime employment are over for everyone, not just engineers, one should be prepared for change no matter what your age.

Those who came to this realization a little late are quite apparent on these threads.


50 posted on 07/10/2005 7:52:36 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: A. Pole

"Law, finances."

Do you know how valuable someone is with an undergraduate engineering degree with a law degree on top?

In these days of global competition in science and technology, that is the ticket to riches beyond their wildest dreams........

Of course CPA's and Lawyers more often toil in obscurity and drudgery with middle-incomes than they do not...... Some people are ok with that.


51 posted on 07/10/2005 7:58:50 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: RFEngineer
I agree. Like many fields, an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's.

It is stupid to invest money, effort and time into profession which is good only when you are in your 20's. Much better to be a lawyer, doctor, teacher etc - in these fields you can be making career your whole life.

starting your own business is definitely one of those options.

People who are good material for engineers often are not good for businessmen or salesmen. And you do not need to finish college or to be expert in technology field to be successful in business. Don't we know some famous examples for that? :)

52 posted on 07/10/2005 8:04:28 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: RFEngineer
Do you know how valuable someone is with an undergraduate engineering degree with a law degree on top? In these days of global competition in science and technology, that is the ticket to riches beyond their wildest dreams........

It might be so now. But when the most of manufacturing base and technology relocates to China/India, US engineers with law degree will be much less in demand, similar to Argentinian engineers with Argentinian law degree.

53 posted on 07/10/2005 8:07:54 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: RFEngineer
"an engineer in his 40's cannot compete with the younger, sharper minds of engineers in their 20's"

You don't know anything about the profession.
54 posted on 07/10/2005 8:19:35 AM PDT by nairBResal
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To: Jabba the Nutt
You need freedom, you need a culture that encourages creativity and risk-taking and a culture of second and third chances.

Somewhere I read recently that "capital is a coward", it wants to minimize risk while maximizing profits. Think about how that might encourage mediocrity.

55 posted on 07/10/2005 8:28:03 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: Lessismore

Mechanics on an intuitive level (see my post #9)

kinetics with marbles on a track

wave motion with a super size slinky

etc.

I've got three grand kids under 8. Girls.

There's all kinds of physics you can teach them before they've got much math.


56 posted on 07/10/2005 8:29:14 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: nairBResal
To: RFEngineer "You don't know anything about the profession."

I found the picture of RFEngineer (guy on the left):


57 posted on 07/10/2005 8:31:40 AM PDT by A. Pole (The Law of Comparative Advantage: "Americans should not have children and should not go to college")
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To: A. Pole
Law, finances.

My very bright daughter just switched her major from marine biology, that she loves, to accounting.

She is the hardest working person I know and always has been. Her couch in middle school used her as an example of what it was possible to accomplish with no talent but hard work and determination (I had mixed feelings about that).

58 posted on 07/10/2005 8:43:31 AM PDT by lucysmom
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To: voletti
With just 5 per cent of the world's population, it employs almost a third of science and engineering researchers, accounts for 40 per cent of research and development spending and publishes 35 per cent of science and engineering research papers.

Remember that the next time you hear, "The U.S. consumes 25% of the world's energy resources even though it only has 5% of the world's populaaaaaatioooon" (whiny emphasis mine). Also remember that for that 25% consumption of the world's energy resources, we produce... about 25% of the world's economic output.

59 posted on 07/10/2005 8:55:28 AM PDT by kezekiel
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To: DoctorMichael
They also won't allow their students to be taught nonsensical crap like Creationism.

You'll get a lot more rigorous readin' ritin' and rithmetic at a Christian school than you will at one of our dumbed-down, PC, moral-equivalency public skools, and the Christian schools will actually teach the value of Western civilization. You'd be better off sending your kids to Christian school and teaching them evolution on the side than you would sending your kid to your local liberal reeducation camps.

60 posted on 07/10/2005 9:01:00 AM PDT by kezekiel
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