Posted on 12/06/2006 4:29:58 PM PST by HAL9000
Excerpt -
ROME (AP) - Vatican archaeologists have unearthed a sarcophagus believed to contain the remains of the Apostle Paul that had been buried beneath Rome's second largest basilica.The sarcophagus, which dates back to at least A.D. 390, has been the subject of an extended excavation that began in 2002 and was completed last month, the project's head said this week.
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(Excerpt) Read more at christianpost.com ...
Seems clear to me from this verse that the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
The church has made many errors; I doubt they are the absolute foundation of truth. LOL. God is.
...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (New American Standard Bible)
...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and stay (the prop and support) of the Truth. (Amplified Bible)
...which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of truth. (English Standard Version)
... After all, the church of the living God is the strong foundation of truth.(Contemporary English Version)
... which is the house of the living God. The church holds up the truth. (New Life Version)
Every Christian agrees that God is the Truth. ("I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.") But who or what supports the Truth? As you can see, all these translations refer to the the Church as the stay, prop, support, or buttress of the Truth.
I categorically deny that the Church has made doctrinal errors. Christ has promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
Oops. There's the crux of the problem.
Certainly the gates of hell won't prevail against the church. Obviously, the church will stand until the end of time.
But there are errors made every single day all over the world in the church and always will be, no matter how strongly you deny it. Thanks for looking up all those translations. Your first 3 versions support the interpretation I put forth of the verse in Timothy...that God is the foundation of truth.
I wouldn't trust the more modern versions for as much accuracy (such as New Life) since their emphasis is on readability perhaps more than strict accuracy. A Catholic Bible I looked at supported my interpretation as well.
Some versus are confusing and that's why it's a good thing to have multiple versus that agree.
Take Luke 6:47,48 for example...
47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Peter's confession happens in Luke 9, so the Jesus had already explained what the rock meant.
And again in Ephesians 2: 18-20
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Now please tell me what is the foundation, the rock, and the household of God? Seems pretty clear that neither Peter nor the RCC fit any of the above terms.
Agreed. I've always seen the proclamation in Luke 9 (the rock) as simply referring to faith in Christ, not one man (Peter).
Incidentally, I looked 1 Tim 3:15 up in the Interlinear which shows the verse in the Greek and there also my interpretation was confirmed...that the the living God is the foundation of truth.
"Hence we may easily conclude in what sense Paul uses these words. The reason why the Church is called the “pillar of truth” is, that she defends and spreads it by her agency...For the same reason, also, she is called “the pillar of truth;” because the office of administering doctrine, which God hath placed in her hands, is the only instrument of preserving the truth, that it may not perish from the remembrance of men." -- John Calvin
"The pillar and ground of the truth. The church is the pillar and support of the truth because it preaches it to the world, preserves it, and transmits it from generation to generation." -- B.W. Johnson
"The Church, or congregation of believers, which before was regarded as the habitation of God, is now, from a different point of view, regarded as the pillar upholding the truth." ---Robert Jamieson
"The church is the house of God; he dwells there. The church holds forth the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ, as a pillar holds forth a proclamation." --- Matthew Henry
"The figure here is evidently taken from architecture, as the use of the word pillar is. The proper meaning of the one expression would be, that truth is supported by the church, as an edifice is by a pillar; of the other, that the truth rests on the church, as a house does on its foundation. It is that which makes it fixed, stable, permanent; that on which it securely stands amidst storms and tempests; that which renders it firm when systems of error are swept away as a house that is built on the sand. Comp. See Barnes "Mt 7:24"; Mt 7:25-27. The meaning then is, that the stability of the truth on earth is dependent on the church. It is owing to the fact that the church is itself founded on a rock, that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, that no storms of persecution can overthrow it, that the truth is preserved from age to age>" --- Barnes New Testament Notes
All of these Protestant commentaries are found at the Calvin College website.
Gloriosky! One thing this whole controversy illustrates that the Bible is not self-interpreting!
Agreed.
The point is she was an ordinary person like the rest of us.
Not according to the Council of Ephesus (431), which stated that she is the "Mother of God". Are you the Mother of God? No.
In the magnificat she admits she too is a sinner in need of salvation.
She calls God her "Savior", but she never says anywhere that she is a "sinner".
-A8
"For if the many died by the trespass of the one man" (Rom 5:15)
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man" (Rom 5:17)
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" (Rom 5:18)
"For as in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22)
-A8
Ephesians 2: 18-20 clearly states the believers are members of the household of the God. 1 Tim 3:15 clearly says that God's household is the church. This seems to support the view of the visible church (as in the building) and the invisible church (all believers). So whenever you read a verse talking about the church, there is no justification for proclaiming it is talking about the RCC.
Yes, I would like to talk to a Greek scholar as well. A conviction of what the Greek says there certainly be extremely helpful. The preponderance of English versions as well as a cursory glance at the Greek seem to certainly allow for God as the foundation.
Certainly the scripture is self-interpreting on the issue of the sinfulness of mankind which was my original point. The idea of the sinfulness of all (excepting Christ) is consistent throughout the Bible.
Agree totally.
bttt
This is my idea of fun!
LOLOL!!!! Not!!!
I agree...I think Protestants (chill, folks...I will 'splain) think Catholics take Mary emotionally (which we probably do). But there's an intellectual aspect of figuring this whole relationship out.
What a woman she must have been!!! And she changed His diapers!! The scope of all of this is profound.
I don't know why Protestants seem to be scared of Mary. She is not a God.
But what she accomplished was amazing. She brought forth God into man.
She was pure...she brought forth a pure human...but He was human...He was able to be tempted...He threw hissy-fits (the money-changers at the temple)...He got impatient with people (the wedding at Cana)...he got impatient with the apostles.
More to come, I am still thinking....
No, of course, I wouldn't agree with all those Protestant commentators if they disagreed with what the Church teaches. I just cited them to show that the idea of reading the appositive as referring to the word "Church."is a lot more widespread than just within Catholicism.
Googling around like that also illustrates another important point: that there is commonly a lot of disagreement amongst guys like this about doctrine, which is why I usually go first to a reliable, coherent, and internally consistent source of interpretation, i.e. the Catechism.
I'm out to an all-day Shape-Note Singing!~
Why are you assuming that Mary and Jesus shared genetic material? It's entirely possible that the X came from Mary but there is also no conclusive proof. Why put limits on the Holy Spirit? This is something that we'll never be able to know.
Birthing Jesus into the world was no more of an amazing accomplishment that when any other woman birth's a child. The Holy Spirit did the amazing, Mary was obedient and a mother.
And if Jesus really was an only child, I'd be less impressed. Try juggling 5 children. Now that's amazing!
Scared? Are you sure you're using the right word? I have never met one Protestant who is "scared" of Mary.
They simply don't think she's sinless.
That's why it's important to search the scripture for oneself. Teachers obviously CAN shed light and often do; however, if they contradict what's in the text...that's when a red flag goes up because political considerations or other considerations of the day can color church leaders' "interpretations". I wonder what was going on politically in the Catholic church when the Immaculate Conception was doctrinized in 1850 or thereabouts and when the Assumption of Mary was doctrinized in 1950.
As I look at that Timothy passage I become more convinced that the foundation is God...the "household" referred to in the earlier passage denotes believers; however, Paul is pointing out that the "foundation" under that household and the "pillar" which holds it up are God. Then Paul goes on to exalt in that foundation in the last verses of the chapter. Of course, as I said I would like to hear what a Greek scholar thinks about it as I don't know Greek. But the English and the Interlinear seem fairly straightforward to me.
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