Posted on 05/16/2007 1:25:01 PM PDT by dcwusmc
This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11? Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas? If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up. If you say "yes," then to what DEGREE did our policies contribute to 9/11 and subsequent attacks and attempted attacks? Which policies and why?
This is in no way to excuse what happened, of course. But to many of you here, it seems we were pure as the driven snow and 9/11 happened out of thin air and is totally inexplicable in terms of our own government's past actions and policies. Since the roots of it go back to Clinton and beyond (I would say at least to Jimmy the Peanut, myself, perhaps sooner), this does NOT constitute Bush-bashing, as some others are wont to claim (again, a kneejerk reaction).
It is my considered opinion that MANY of our presidents have thought so highly of themselves that they could consider that THEY, alone, held all the answers to all the factionalism and all the troubles in the Middle East. That they could, by virtue of their own personalities and whatever, overcome CENTURIES of fighting, infighting, atrocities and counter-atrocities by all these Arabs and Persians and even the Jews. (It seems that throughout history, MOST societies have scapegoated the Jews for all their ills.) Add the witches' brew of Mohammedanism to an already-backwards culture and we have semi-literate people with hair-triggers who WANT to believe the worst about outsiders, Jew OR Gentile. Then give them even the least bit of fact to bite on and a nutcase like Osama can wind up with scores of thousands of wanna-bee martyrs. And WE fell into that trap. When we took sides in their fratricidal civil wars. Even when we abandoned an "ally" and then allowed him into our country for medical treatment... one group took things one way, another took things THEIR way and now it seems we have the three main sects of that false religion after us.
Let me clarify now that I am a fervent supporter of Israel and the Jewish People, God's Chosen. However, I am NOT a supporter of GOVERNMENT AID to Israel. Besides the very questionable constitutionality of it, the aid comes with, in my opinion, way too many strings which inhibit Israel from mounting a proper defense of herself when needed. Also it gives American presidents, who are already too full of themselves, an arrogance that THEY ALONE can surmount the hatreds and ill wills that drive the Muslim countries to want to see Israel eradicated and all the Jews of the world exterminated.
The main problem as I see it is that if we refuse to look beyond our own prejudices and biases to the FACTS, we will LOSE our country and our culture. If we choose to blindly follow dangerous or misguided or even evil policies and policy makers, we will wind up with NOTHING of the once-free nation handed off to us by the Founders. I even sometimes do it, then I have to actually THINK for myself. Mostly I come down on the side that says that the people who attacked us and who continue to act like a plague upon the land should be wiped slick from the earth. However, I often strongly question the MEANS for doing that... and I question the WILL of the Bushites to WIN the war on terrorists and their sponsoring countries. I also have trouble with the name of this: The Global War on Terror. Terrorism is a TACTIC used by those who are too cowardly to come up against an opposing force on an even footing. It is also SPONSORED by certain nations who would see us done ill, but who want to keep their own hands "clean." Thus, there can be NO "war on terror," and it is the semantics which get in the way of WINNING, because there is no way to determine when or if you HAVE won. This is why I, along with others (including a presidential candidate who shall remain nameless), am convinced that we should have had a declaration by the Congress that specifically stated that a state of war exists between the United States and al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any nation which supports or harbors them. That way we would have mobilized our national resources, went on an actual WAR-footing and committed our country and our people and our resources to WINNING this thing instead of having it now to be used as a political football by the Left and the chickenhawks on the right.
So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11? Or are we as pure as the driven snow and those nutballs just up and decided to attack us because they could get away with it?
Not a peep out of you about that, huh?
Already commented, there, studly. I think ANY foreign aid is unconstitutional and wrong. Read the whole thread and you’ll find it numerous times.
You NEVER mentioned Egypt until you were called on that, studly.
Maybe not at first on THIS thread, but time after time I have stated that I do not believe that ANY foreign aid is Constitutional. And I also stated, in THIS thread, why I specifically disapprove of governmental foreign aid to Israel. Did you read that part? If not, get back to me when you have.
I was actually trying to limit it to REASONABLE ways, not anything conceivable...
1) We defended the old Iran by not acknowledging the radical take over in 1979.
2) We defended Afghanistan by supporting the resistance
3) We defended Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (two Islamic States) from Iraq
4) We defended Kosovo and Croatia (two Islamic states) from Serbia. (Granted I never liked this one)
Here are a few examples of the United States protecting Islamic States. The argument is completely bogus.
That’s what I thought. You’re the goron with the Ward Churchill fixation.
Wasn’t arguing. Was asking... My answer was that we allowed ourselves to appear weak... which is VERY true.
IMHO there are a myriad of reasons why these Islamo-facists hate our country. Our decedent secular society is one reason. Our lack of moral control (as a nation - not as individuals), are obsession with everything “sex”, Hollywierd and the trash they spew forth, and many other examples all serve to threaten their very controlled distilled way of life and ideology. These “men” fear that our way of life will infect their culture and destroy their religious beliefs. That, IMHO, is a large part of why they hate Americans. There are other reasons, of course (Israel for one). But to me, this is a biggie. We do not practice what we constantly preach.
Of course not, our actions don't have consequences. /rudy
Fixation?
Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul,and YOU have an Israel fixation.
And just what fixation might that be, studmuffin? The one that says that the strings on money to Israel from U.S. government aid keeps Israel from being able to defend herself properly? That fixation? Or is it the fixation that PRIVATE contributions from INDIVIDUALS can really show the true level of support for Israel from American Jews and Christians? That fixation?
Go away now and quit bugging me. Fixation, indeed.
More than fifty years ago, Bishop Fulton Sheen referred to the madness of the Arabs. It had to do with the Jewish state but also to do with the continuous humiliation of the Arabs for no more than 200 years of western invasion and reduction of Muslim power. It began more than three hundred years ago with the failure of the last Turkish effort to take Paris, then 80 years later with the resurgence of Russian power into the Crimea, then the Invasion of Egypt by Napoleon, and his expulsion only to be repaced by growing British power not only there but in the whole of the eastern mediterranean. The Eastern Question began to grow with the waning of Turkish power before the rise of the Christian people in south east Europe and the fractioning of that power into modern Christian states. In desperation “reforming” Turkish Sultans sought to modernize the Empire, only to produce a European-like national Turkish movement in Anatolia, as the Turs fought the Greeks and Armenians and others for mastery in Anatolia itself. Then came the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its reduction to a national state under the leadership of the secularist Attaturk. To add to the humiliation, the Arab lands are occupied by Chrstian armies who suppposedly came to give the Arabs independence, and who then set up colonial states and, to add insult to injure create a Jewish homeland in “Palestine.” Yes, i would say the Muslims have “cause” but the only reason they hate us is because we have become the only western power capable of thwarting who they think is the will of God, which is a universal Muslim state. Are they justified in their anger? Well, yes. but so was Germany after the Great War. BUT in the end, no rational calculation could have allowed Germany to resume the same place that it occupied when Kaiser Bill came to the German throne. Likewise, we can only try in the Middle East to fight fire with fire. If the backfire we attempted in Iraq does not work, we are in for the fight of our lives.
The Crusades were a blip in Muslim history. They had forgotten about them until western intellectuals tried to show their solidarity with the Arabs by coloring the Crusades as an act of agression. The real “Crusades” were largely secular, by which I mean the colonial phase from about 1800 to about 1860, when the Muslim world was surrounded and partially occupied by the Europeans powers.
Not replying to you per se.
I’m replying to this topic.
The US didn’t have to do anything to piss off Bin Laden or any person who follows Islam. The simple fact, and yes it’s simple, that we’re infidels is enough per the Koran. So we were in their land (Arabia). It doesn’t matter. The Koran states death to infidels long before there was a land issue. It’s the core belief of Islam. So the US supports Israel(which has an awesome military btw). We, the US, could abandon Israel tomorrow, and we’d still be hated, we’d still be #1 on the annihilation thing - Israel use to be first but we surpassed them - we’re #1 now to be destroyed regardless of our support of Israel.
The US supports Israel and we should for many reasons. But even if we didn’t, Islam would still think it necessary to kill (or convert) us all. We could take Israel out of the equation and still have the same sentiment of Islam. Israel and the whole Palestinian Question is just an excuse for them.
Very good post.
Do you feel the same about Egypt, studmuffin?
As I said, you are FIXATED on Israel.
As your comments show.
Nope. United States government under BJ Clinton deliberately established AQ stronghold in Europe during Bosnian civil war 1992-95 and sided with Iranians to arm Islamists. Bosnian terrorist alumni staffed Hamburg cell that recruited Mohammed Atta and his lieutenant. American alphabet soup agencies were up to the neck aiding AQ.
Money laundering for AQ led from Vienna and Sarajevo straight to Washington, DC. Search FR under GOLDENCHAIN keyword.
BJ Clinton and Hilary Clinton are more implicated in 911 than Saddam.
I’m not saying we’ve done nothing wrong, but in the end it wouldn’t make much difference.
The Islamic leaders use us as an excuse to their people for everything that is wrong in the world.
They start teaching their children hate at an early age, using their religion as justification for killing and destroying.
So we may have contributed some to why Muslims hate the West so much, but nothing we could have done would have stopped it.
Islam teaches to hat and kill all non Muslims,and to conquer the world. How do you fight that?
Already said that there should be NO taxpayer funded foreign aid, which INCLUDES Egypt. Egypt is somewhat less antagonistic to Israel than Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria, but even so, NO U.S. TAX DOLLARS SHOULD FLOW THERE. Now, is that clear enough for you, there, studmuffin? NO U.S. TAXPAYER-FUNDED FOREIGN AID, PERIOD. TO INCLUDE NONE TO EGYPT OR ISRAEL. OR IRAQ. OR ANYWHERE IN EUROPE OR THE MIDDLE EAST. None. Anywhere. Ever again. Clear?
I LIKE Israel. As a Christian, I KNOW what Israel means to my God. I support Israel AND its right to defend itself WITHOUT the strings put on it by the self-righteous U.S. government. Is THAT clear enough for you?
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