Did the U.S. Contribute in ANY Possible Way to Islamists' Attitudes Prior to 9/11?

This is a question which requires a lot of thought and introspection. I realize and understand that many of you are pure knee-jerk, but try. Did the United States and the Federal Government in ANY way contribute to 9/11? Were our policies in the mid-east in any possible way factors which allowed a nutjob like Osama Bin Awful to recruit moonbats who were and are willing to die to kill "infidels," whether in the U.S. or overseas? If you say "no,' I ask for clear evidence to back you up. If you say "yes," then to what DEGREE did our policies contribute to 9/11 and subsequent attacks and attempted attacks? Which policies and why?

This is in no way to excuse what happened, of course. But to many of you here, it seems we were pure as the driven snow and 9/11 happened out of thin air and is totally inexplicable in terms of our own government's past actions and policies. Since the roots of it go back to Clinton and beyond (I would say at least to Jimmy the Peanut, myself, perhaps sooner), this does NOT constitute Bush-bashing, as some others are wont to claim (again, a kneejerk reaction).

It is my considered opinion that MANY of our presidents have thought so highly of themselves that they could consider that THEY, alone, held all the answers to all the factionalism and all the troubles in the Middle East. That they could, by virtue of their own personalities and whatever, overcome CENTURIES of fighting, infighting, atrocities and counter-atrocities by all these Arabs and Persians and even the Jews. (It seems that throughout history, MOST societies have scapegoated the Jews for all their ills.) Add the witches' brew of Mohammedanism to an already-backwards culture and we have semi-literate people with hair-triggers who WANT to believe the worst about outsiders, Jew OR Gentile. Then give them even the least bit of fact to bite on and a nutcase like Osama can wind up with scores of thousands of wanna-bee martyrs. And WE fell into that trap. When we took sides in their fratricidal civil wars. Even when we abandoned an "ally" and then allowed him into our country for medical treatment... one group took things one way, another took things THEIR way and now it seems we have the three main sects of that false religion after us.

Let me clarify now that I am a fervent supporter of Israel and the Jewish People, God's Chosen. However, I am NOT a supporter of GOVERNMENT AID to Israel. Besides the very questionable constitutionality of it, the aid comes with, in my opinion, way too many strings which inhibit Israel from mounting a proper defense of herself when needed. Also it gives American presidents, who are already too full of themselves, an arrogance that THEY ALONE can surmount the hatreds and ill wills that drive the Muslim countries to want to see Israel eradicated and all the Jews of the world exterminated.

The main problem as I see it is that if we refuse to look beyond our own prejudices and biases to the FACTS, we will LOSE our country and our culture. If we choose to blindly follow dangerous or misguided or even evil policies and policy makers, we will wind up with NOTHING of the once-free nation handed off to us by the Founders. I even sometimes do it, then I have to actually THINK for myself. Mostly I come down on the side that says that the people who attacked us and who continue to act like a plague upon the land should be wiped slick from the earth. However, I often strongly question the MEANS for doing that... and I question the WILL of the Bushites to WIN the war on terrorists and their sponsoring countries. I also have trouble with the name of this: The Global War on Terror. Terrorism is a TACTIC used by those who are too cowardly to come up against an opposing force on an even footing. It is also SPONSORED by certain nations who would see us done ill, but who want to keep their own hands "clean." Thus, there can be NO "war on terror," and it is the semantics which get in the way of WINNING, because there is no way to determine when or if you HAVE won. This is why I, along with others (including a presidential candidate who shall remain nameless), am convinced that we should have had a declaration by the Congress that specifically stated that a state of war exists between the United States and al-Qaeda, the Taliban and any nation which supports or harbors them. That way we would have mobilized our national resources, went on an actual WAR-footing and committed our country and our people and our resources to WINNING this thing instead of having it now to be used as a political football by the Left and the chickenhawks on the right.

So, in hindsight, COULD we have taken a different path years back that would NOT NECESSARILY have led to 9/11? Or are we as pure as the driven snow and those nutballs just up and decided to attack us because they could get away with it?

I just wish I was in that good of shape. :^)

I get a bit annoyed with those who want us to conform to the Islamists twisted view of how things should be just so they might be less inclined to kill us. Notice I said less inclined because I would not bet on bending to their silliness doing much good.

These are the guys that do "pit inspections" to make sure men have shaved properly. Comply with one rule and they will come up with some other bit of nonsense.

Someone once compared it to being in an abusive relationship. They were pretty much dead on.

The main motivation for an abuser is control. They want to control everything around them. If those they want to control don't do exactly as they order then they must be punished or even killed. You can't do anything about this type of person except lock them up or kill them. There is no appeasing them in any lasting fashion.

And no, bombing Mecca will not do it. Because the problem is inside the minds of people who are able to rationalize anything

Turn the rock to dust and they will just claim that it is now spread over the whole world and that means that now the whole planet belongs to them.

This is my take on the contribution the US made.

The US has been importing oil from the Middle East for a very long time and by doing so we have maintained decent relationships with the Saudis and their official government.

The problem lies deeper though. Internally in Saudi their social system was considered unjust. It is really hard core class warfare, and quite heavily reliant on socialist ideals. In Saudi though those problems were personified. The rich got really rich and if you were born a sheep herder you stayed a sheep herder. It was almost a caste system by default.

What has happend over time is the roots of revolution took place and the House of Saud is viewed as corrupt and evil by some of those within.

In reality there are in some minds a justification for that thought because social injustice has been extremely prevelant.

Basically the Saudi system isn't pristine. There is torture and pretty much there are many who never have any hope to move up in society.

Hence, bin Laden preaches his version of justice and equity which has a populist ring to it. Then he goes radical. The Saudi government feared/fears him because he wanted to lead an inssurrection.

This group though saw part of the problem in their own country, internally, as being an external influence. AKA The US.

This group saw the US as propping up a regime that they don't like and that they want to overthrow.

The US was trying to have a balancing act. We didn't interfere in Saudi internal affairs, but we also maintained strong relations with them. We sent A LOT of money, and have helped stabilize the country at times.

For the group that views them as a whole rotten apple, they attach the US with their internal struggle and in order to fix whats at home they have to 'fix' the US.

Hence almost all the hijackers were Saudis and the intense hatred of the US by them. With that group bin laden is a popular populist who is fighting for the little man for a more equitable system of justice.

You can see how he can become popular when you are talking about a country with a social system (historically) that has operated like Saudi Arabia.

The real fix?

1. Pressure the Saudis to make a better system in house. Which, that, I know is going on now.

2. Iraq isn't just about Iraq. A lot of those sentiments in Saudi were not exclusive to Saudi. Hence our invasion into Iraq is geared overall at changing the tone.

If we succeed, and a lot of people want it to succeed, then you take away the ideological weapons that these extreme groups use to recruit.

Success being defined as having a relatively stable country where the average joe can go to work get a job and support his family. If he wants to go to college and make more money, give him the chance. That is very basic stuff, but historically its been denied.

If you were the wrong religion, or the wrong family, too bad for you.

Right now, the violence in Iraq is a fight for the survival of extremeism. If we succeed in stablizing a major Middle Eastern country then the extremeist can no longer point to their CORE tools of thought.

If we succeed, they go extinct. Hence they are fighting for their lives.

As for the US contribution, we were viewed as sustaining a corrupt system in their country.

In other words we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we did intervene and meddle in every nit picking thing then we are even more condemned. If we operate at arms length (as we did) we are viewed as the core of their social problem.

Those who want to examine the ‘root causes’ of Bin Laden and Islamist attacks on America and the West look to the attackers’ own words and conclude that US foreign intervention was the precipitating cause (see Ron Paul in the latest Republican debate).

An examination of those same words reveal three things.

ONE that Bin Laden tremendously distorts US actions. This manipulative distortion means that acts that we take will always be used by them to justify violence. Even when we have not acted they invent conspiracies and blame us. For the latest of these concocted justifications which were used to incite violence see the Koran flushing incident and Danish cartoon publication. A free civilization such as ours can not, will not and should not change itself to appease those who are looking for excuses to attack us.

TWO, Bin Laden finds Koranic provocation for attacking us and abdicating treaties and peaceful co-existence even when the life of a single Muslim is affected. [”He (Allah’s Blessings and Salutations be upon him) considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa’ void because one of their Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market.”]

THREE, Bin Laden repeatedly and at length cites our weakness, our lack of determination, our fear as his greatest provocation. IOW he knows he can win.

...........................

DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE AMERICANS OCCUPYING THE LAND OF THE TWO HOLY PLACES (1996)

“A few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that the explosions at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by cowardly terrorists.

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk could induce a grieving mother to laughter! And it shows the fears that have enveloped you all. Where was this courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place in 1983 CE (1403 A.H). You were transformed into scattered bits and pieces; 241 soldiers were killed, most of them Marines. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in less than twenty-four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where, after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post-cold war leadership of the new world order, you moved tens of thousands of international forces, including twenty-eight thousand American solders, into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu, you left the area in disappointment, humiliation, and defeat, carrying your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You had been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the heart of every Muslim and a remedy to the chests of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut, Aden, and Mogadishu.

I say to the Secretary of Defence: The sons of the land of the two Holy Places had come out to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan, the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and today they are fighting in Chechnya, and by the Permission of Allah, they have been made victorious over your partner, the Russians. By the command of Allah, they are also fighting in Tajikistan.

“Our toughness has, O Amroo, tired the enemies before you, never giving in!”

‘snip’

“Those youths know that the reward in fighting you, the USA, is double than the reward in fighting someone not from the People of the Book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, an enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same heaven with his righteous executioner. “

‘snip’

Those youth are different from your soldiers. Your problem will be how to convince your troops to fight, while our problem will be how to restrain our youth to wait for their turn in fighting and in operations. These youths are commendable and praiseworthy.

http://www.meij.or.jp/new/Osama%20bin%20Laden/jihad1.htm

“when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.”

http://www.greatdreams.com/osama_tape.htm

The people who believe that we are creating jihadists by fighting in Iraq should listen to Bin Laden who understands the Muslim psyche. The best way to stop the Jihad is to be the strong horse. Muslim public opinion of us was best after we went in to Afghanistan and removed the Taliban quickly and effectively.

We used to know this. It took a Nixon to make peace in China, a Reagan to end the Cold War and a Sharon to end the Intifadah.

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