Victor Davis Hanson: Blame Everyone Except Russia!

National Review Online ^ | August 21, 2008 | Victor Davis Hanson

[duckln]

Too much buffering and static on my computer to follow what he was saying.

I read the article and good for Estonia and the progress they are making. Two different places, don't know enough about it to discuss a comparison. Can you make a specific point.

[MarMema]

He was helping Georgia for a year or so. They have a 12% flat tax in Georgia...

He grew up under the USSR. He makes some excellent comments at the end of his speech.

"Our life is empty, meaningless without liberty. Liberty is what gives us the oxygen, raises our spirit."

He thanks Milton Friedman for supporting liberty in the world.

"When we all together move in this direction, we can really make this world a better place."

And he wrote this, too - link here

[MarMema]

Georgia and Azerbaijan provide the sole corridor for the transit of Caspian energy supplies to the West.

"They also provide crucial access for U.S. and allied anti-terror operations from NATO Europe into the Greater Middle East. In both of these roles, Georgia and Azerbaijan can only function as a tandem or not at all; they stand or fall together. Their success would also enable Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan -- where most of the Caspian energy reserves are located -- to export oil and gas to Europe directly, rather than via Russia; and that in turn would help reduce Russia's looming, risk-fraught energy leverage on the European Union. In sum, the stakes are high in securing Georgia and Azerbaijan as functional nations linked to the Euro-Atlantic system."

[MarMema]

The South Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia) is a strategically important transit point from Europe and is at the heart of America's evolving "Greater Middle East" vision, which considers weak or failing states as serious security risks that can easily become terrorist breeding grounds. While Afghanistan and Iraq are now clearly at the top of the policy agenda, anchoring this region into the Euro-Atlantic alliance is a major US goal for the next several years.

"For this vision to succeed, the conflicts that have remained “frozen” for almost a decade must be resolved. The status quo in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia leads to human suffering and enormous loss of human potential, while thwarting economic development. Radical Islamist or terrorist groups that want to transfer militants, drugs, arms, and weapons of mass destruction into Europe could also penetrate these gray zones."

South Ossetia is a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone.

[Sal]

Weakness whether its real or perceived will lead to war.

We can pretty much make book on it. OTOH McCain (my next to last choice from the primaries) is NOT sounding weak at all and I think we will benefit on this election from Pooty's mistake. He almost ensured that BO will never be the leader of the free world. BO was already crumbling, but this gangster invasion seals his fate IMO.

[duckln]

He was helping Georgia for a year or so. They have a 12% flat tax in Georgia.
Russia has a flat tax, ~14%.

"Our life is empty, meaningless without liberty. Liberty is what gives us the oxygen, raises our spirit."
I bet Russians feel the same way since freedom and capitalism is setting in.

He thanks Milton Friedman for supporting liberty in the world.
So does most except liberals.

"When we all together move in this direction, we can really make this world a better place."
That's why IMO Russia has moved and is moving in that direction but apparently doesn't want to wind up as a vassal of the old colonizing greedy EU. On balance Putin serves his country as much or more in this respect as does Saakashvili for his. It's a tossup, why alienate the more important country that will be needed now and in the future in the war against Islamists.

[Sal]

Two pathetically weak Democrat presidents did NOT have the right strategy to just talk when action was required: the awful Johnson with the Pueblo Incident and the universally recognized worst president ever Jimmy Carter cringing before the Islamic thugs in Iran.

In fact we would NOT be facing Islamoterrorism today without the perfidy, cowardly weakness, and deep stupidity of Carter.

Ironically one of the very real problems you accurately describe as “the destroy democracy America Democrat party in DC” has been all but solved by Putin’s foolishness. Putin has pretty much finished off any of BHO’s chances of victory. (See I call him by his right name when he does something good.)

We do have critical problems on our border, largely because of globalist goo-goos in both parties. We stopped them last year and we’ll probably have to do it again under McCain’s presidency. We can do it.

Iraq is all but done and Rice has been talking to them about winding it up. Afghanistan is still a problem, but we’re doing a lot better than the Taliban is. Lebanon will be solved when Syria and Iran are taken care of, probably by Israel and maybe Israel and us. In any case Lebanon, Syria and Iran are all Russian aggravated problems. It’s possible there may be a coordinated solution...

Neocons were not demonizing Russia. Russia demonized herself and will regret it. I don’t get your complaint that neocons smear Christianity and American culture, more the opposite.

I understand your somewhat off-base attack on neocons hanging on to Israel. When certain groups call someone a neocon they mean Jooooo as in “Kill Jooooos”. According to your statement you would NOT be part of that wretched group and thanks for that.

I would say that, rather than neocons, Poooty and his KGB/mafiya/oligarch thugs are the ones trying to get all the money in the world. They have certainly stolen 10’s of billions already from the Russian people. Maybe 100’s of billions. Pooooooty is reputed to have 40 Billion salted away.

I like to use the Pooooooty word because I think Putin the Poisoner has earned a huge amount of contempt, revulsion, and ridicule. He deserves it. I don’t understand where it has any kind of racial implication. That sounds more like an Obama response. If you don’t like something someone says, call them a racist. I don’t care if you are impressed or amused. I do think it’s important that you make an accurate report on the strength of the American public.

BTW if you really live in the US, next time you’re in the super market, drug store, convenience store, discount store, doctors, dentists, dry cleaners, etc., sound out the ordinary citizen on what Russia is doing. You may find the replies significantly more heated than here where people are writing them down. That makes some people nervous.

[Sal]

...why alienate the more important country that will be needed now and in the future in the war against Islamists.

Russia under Putin is no help in the war against Islamists because he has ALLIED himself with them. Saddam before, now Iran, Syria...

[duckln]

Radical Islamist or terrorist groups that want to transfer militants, drugs, arms, and weapons of mass destruction into Europe could also penetrate these gray zones
Radical Islamist or terrorist groups that want to transfer militants, drugs, arms, and weapons of mass destruction into (Europe is) Russia could also penetrate these gray zones (this grey zone is not enrout to Europe, it is enroute to Russia ) When I saw what was done is Beslan, I started to think rationally.

South Ossetia is a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone b>
South Ossetia was a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone into Russia.Since the attack in Beslan ( probably through South Ossetia),it seems the Russians had to plug the route through South Ossetia and clear it of rabble.

Is there any truth that Georgia was harboring Chechyn terrorists?

Why is 1/2 of the city of, North and South Ossetia, populated by Russians, divided by a tunnel, desired by the Georgians to the point of spilling blood and risking cold and hot war?

[Sal]

South Ossetia was a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone into Russia.Since the attack in Beslan ( probably through South Ossetia),it seems the Russians had to plug the route through South Ossetia and clear it of rabble.

I would agree that it looks like South Ossetia is full of rabble. If the Russians had to plug that route to protect themselves, they could have blown the stinkin' tunnel. Instead they used it to invade Georgia.

Is there any truth that Georgia was harboring Chechyn terrorists?

It's bad enough when you insult your reader's intelligence with the first set of statements, but to ask if Georgia was harboring Chechen terrorists goes way beyond insult.

You know damn well that Pooooty sent Chechen "irregulars" into Georgia. You know damn well that he picked them because of their vicious brutality. They raped, stole, burned and murdered Georgians.

Yes, your precious Pooty Poot works WITH the very same scum who raped, tortured, and butchered the helpless little school children at Beslan. We cared about that; he did NOT. If he did he wouldn't work with them.

[duckln]

Don't forget Clinton, pathetically weak, siding with the head choppers and bombing civilians from 12000 ft.

True, Carter started it all by dumping a monarchy for a radical theocracy.

With a hem hawing Barry, Putin will settle down and work, I hope, toward achieving a better life for his people. With linage McCain he'll be on edge. We have a dilemma.

The fence? We can do it, but McCain will weasel out if elected. Not that I blame him. IMO we need an accommodation. There are just too many good hard working Mexicans in this country.

Lebanon, Syria, Iran.. I agree.

I like to use the Pooooooty word because I think Putin the Poisoner has earned a huge amount of contempt, revulsion, and ridicule.
Let's be honest. Because Putin is Russian, and successful, he has become Vlad the Impaler, Pootie and now the poisoner. And then they throw in the whole country referring to them as a whole, the Russians. Goebels couldn't do better.

[duckln]

they could have blown the stinkin' tunnel
Proves they are not barbarians.

but to ask if Georgia was harboring Chechen terrorists goes way beyond insult.
Was it Yelsin then Putin, that claimed during the two wars in Chechyn that the terrorists were operating in part from some valley in Georgia, where they couldn't be reached ?

You know damn well that Pooooty sent Chechen "irregulars" into Georgia
I know no such thing, neither do you. Until shown otherwise, I treat that as a 'Goebels' whopper. But then, it's the old 'race card' you're playing. Calling people names and making rediculous accusations is showing lack of substance.

[MarMema]

South Ossetia was a major smuggling and arms/terrorist zone into Russia.Since the attack in Beslan ( probably through South Ossetia),it seems the Russians had to plug the route through South Ossetia and clear it of rabble.

Beslan was a few years ago. These two sources are from 2008.

South Ossetia, backed by Russia, enjoyed a de facto sovereignty and raised most of its state revenue from taxing traffic on the most important road tunnel through the Caucasus mountains. Moscow also sent generous subsidies. Unofficially, the enclave was also a major boon to local smugglers wanting to trade in untaxed cigarettes, drugs and other contraband in Georgia, Russia and beyond. Other Russian-protected ethnic enclaves in the region, including Abkhazia along Georgia's Black Sea coast, are also havens for smugglers and organized crime, according to international police officials.

Citizens in the separatist regions have been living off remittances, international and Russian aid, and smuggling to the extent that local leadership has come to profit from non-resolution of the conflict."

In other words, few of them worked, if any, at anything legal, and hey, Russia was willing to pay them just to be there as Russian citizens. The good life.

[MarMema]

The conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia had gradually been transformed into uncontrolled territories known as crime zones. The smuggling networks established in Abkhazia and South Ossetia increased the crime rate, created corrupt economic interests and contributed to the existing political status quo and foreign conflicts. The main reasons for smuggling in these regions are institutional weakness and corruption in law enforcement bodies

"This led Yulia Latynina, a columnist for "Novaya gazeta" and a host on Ekho Moskvyto, to observe "South Ossetia is not a territory, not a country, not a regime. It is a joint venture of siloviki generals and Ossetian bandits for making money in a conflict with Georgia..."

The mainstay of the local economy is the Roksky tunnel under the main Caucasian range, which is a major route for smuggling goods in and out of Russia. Any initiative to close down this hotbed of smuggling from either Georgia or Russia will automatically lead to major discontent and a decrease in the people’s incomes in South Ossetia. If Georgia succeeded in bringing South Ossetia under its control, it would probabl wish to close the Roksky tunnel and, at the same time, invest in the creation and development of infrastructure and industry in South Ossetia.

[InABunkerUnderSF]

I think it’s important for FReepers to realize that the Vlad trolls on FR have two purposes: One is to propagandize, attempt to intimidate, pretend to be one of us reinforcing the “better red than dead” attitude that actually very few here share.

Which leads to the next question, who are the "sleeper trolls"? In the past trolls have been people who have registered and then pitched filth and tried to sew dissension within the community.

Maybe I'm being paranoid but I'm seeing people who have been here for years (mostly without "about" pages BTW) who are turning out to be apologists for the Russians. This is a new phenomenon and it will be interesting to see how it is dealt with in the FR community.

[Sal]

You bring up an important point re: the sleeper trolls. Despite outrageous lying, very few are getting the ZOT, which is OK because we the ordinary FReepers can handle the lies.

There was one who was so outrageous he/she/it did get a ZOT. I checked its sign up date which turned out to be several years ago. Then I checked "in the forum" and saw that it had posted only on Russian threads since the invasion and had not posted before that for about 2 years.

Later I saw reports by other FReepers (sorry I don't remember who) who had been making checks and they said there were lots of sign-ups from '02, '04 etc. who had signed on and lain dormant until the Russian invasion.

To my mind this is pretty good evidence that Vladdie was planning this or something similar for a long, long time and knew he'd need propagandists sometime down the road.

We're certainly inundated with them and your observation is on the money: In the past trolls have been people who have registered and then pitched filth and tried to sew dissension within the community.

You could usually tell by the sign up date--just in time to roil the waters on a particular current subject. Easy to peg and reject.

The Vlad trolls are here with a long term purpose and single minded goals, although some of the brighter ones do chat about other subjects and ingratiate themselves on subjects that are benign. Eventually though the mask slips and reveals the bestial invader...

[unsycophant]

Or they are users who don’t want to say inflammatory things under their known IDs, so as to avoid people looking up all their old comments and following them around for the rest of their FR lives.

Or, users who are of Russian heritage, whose loyalties lie with one faction they wouldn’t defend under a known ID.

Etc. Etc.

Everything isn’t always a conspiracy.

[Sal]

I only use one ID and if I want to say something inflammatory, I say it. If I think it's too inflammatory, I keep it to myself.

Or, users who are of Russian heritage, whose loyalties lie with one faction they wouldn’t defend under a known ID.

To address your point about "conspiracies". Let's say you or I want to support an unpopular view and are genuinely afraid of cyber stalkers. I'd sign up and blast away. I wouldn't sign up and post nothing for two years, particularly if the incident I was going to post about hadn't happened yet.

[RusIvan]

You may not beleive me but the majority of Russians support actions of goverment in S.Osetia and Abkhazia. That is because Goergian troops attacked our peacekeepers which is part of Russian army and civilians who are Russian citizens.

No Country will allow to kill her soldiers and citizens. Any attack on them is the clearest casus belli. I do not understand why you so blind that do not see that.

What do you want? Russia gathers the corpses og her dead soldiers and citizens and back off? If she did that then next day no citizen of Russia will respect teh goverment, no small ethnicty of Russia will respect goverment. Even no Russia will respect himself.
So the clear aggression on our citizen must be answered. Russia had no choice.

Your hostility toward Russia will create the situation that the majority of Russians will be hostile to you. So as result Russia will oppose the west at any possible occasions. I do not think it will biring us to teh hot war but Cold war will be for sure if West does not relaize it is wrong.

PS If you not like the the dicord voices here on FR and like only one point of view you may ban me. But it will mean that so called freedom of speech of West is nothing.

[RogerFGay]

Someone else can take up the legal case on who fired first and all that. As far as I know, you weren't there - so you don't know what happened.

But I must emphasize that Russia is the aggressor in the larger context. It is a fact that Putin made the political decision - unprovoked - and announced it to the world - his intent is to make Russia a powerful adversary against the west once again. It was like when Nikita Khrushchev pounded his shoe on the table and declared "We will bury you!" This is a fact that we cannot ignore unless we are stupid or insane, and we are neither.