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OBAMA ELIGIBILITY HEARING TO BE STREAMED LIVE STARTING AT 0900 EST
Article II SUPERPAC ^ | 01/26/2012 | Article II SUPERPAC

Posted on 01/26/2012 5:55:04 AM PST by RaceBannon

Article II SUPERPAC streaming live video and audio at this link


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2012; 2012ballot; barry; bc; birthcertificate; certifigate; corruption; eligibility; fraud; ga; identitytheft; livegeorgiahearing; media; mittromney; naturalborncitizen; nbc; obama; sarahpalin; socialsecurity; teaparty; usurper
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To: Danae

Getting to Soebarkah’s true identity is comparable to peeling an onion the size of a 5 gallon bucket. GRRR!!! I know the real issue has been hiding in front of us all along, but damn it Danae, producing something as simple as an ORIGINAL $12 document as President of the free world ought to take about 2.5 seconds.

Did they get the 1961 hospital names right on the forged BC’s? I’m asking about Dear Leader and Nordykes.

After watching Orly’s interview with the media... I’m so pissed off that I could put my fist through a wall of kryptonite or Chuck Norris’s front door. Oh yeah I AM THAT ANGRY!


1,221 posted on 01/28/2012 7:57:09 PM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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To: Danae

Thanks, D. I agree w Every Word You Said. It was eloquent and powerful. Let’s pray Obama’s reign is coming to a close. Maybe more info will come out after it doesn’t matter quite so much. Better late than never.


1,222 posted on 01/28/2012 7:57:19 PM PST by Fantasywriter
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To: David; Flotsam_Jetsome; Berlin_Freeper; Hotlanta Mike; Silentgypsy; repubmom; HANG THE EXPENSE; ...
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

there is still room in the legal process to put him in a position where he will need to tell people he is a fraud and explain why he is still defending the fraud

Check out David's # 1214.

Thanks, David.

1,223 posted on 01/28/2012 8:00:02 PM PST by LucyT ( NB. ~ Pakistan was NOT on the U.S. State Department's "no travel" list in 1981. ~)
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To: Flotsam_Jetsome
I checked out your profile and you are A-1 meritorious gung ho good to go non noobie. Thanks for your service on the deep blue.

The only time I play the noob card is IF someone is outing themselves troll style AND their born on date is recent, real recent.

One freeper named Buckhead single handily gave cause for Dan Rather to soil his knickers AND start collecting unemployment.

Another freeper out west beat the media by 10 minutes in reporting the Space Shuttle's breakup.

I lack the scholarly touch, but I will fight!

:o)

freepersup

1,224 posted on 01/28/2012 8:06:14 PM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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To: David; LucyT; Danae
“You are correct about Minor—it has no application in the Georgia case.”

Just like every gun right case prior to Heller had no application to personal gun rights to self-protection?

The Liberal Bar, as you say, has a consensus that the NBC language in MvH is dicta, but the Liberal Bar also had a consensus that the right to keep and bear arms was a right only of well regulated state militias and NOT an individual right. The Roberts Court disagreed. The Roberts Court is NOT the Liberal Bar.

Let's not also forget that the Liberal Bar thought that affirmative action was constitutional and not reverse discrimination. The Roberts Court disagreed.

Let's see what happens!

1,225 posted on 01/28/2012 8:45:04 PM PST by Seizethecarp
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To: David; Smokeyblue; Scanian

>>> I shouldn’t have started with a blast at the general sophistication on this kind of issue and apologize for doing so. <<<

I thank you for your gesture of goodwill.

The reason that anything at all, is getting done, or may get done, is because people are taking action. They are moving the proverbial atomic particles, that are standing in their way or aligned against them, clear the hell out of the way! In other words FORCE! Why? Because Soebarkah is playing the Chicago way. Ya’ don’t bring a stick of bubble gum to a knife fight, and ya’ don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.

I’m not a learned scholar, nor do I play one on TV, so I don’t pretend to be one here either. I do know that NBC applies to only two elected positions, out of a population of over 300,000,000 people. Were our population to swell to 600,000,000, 900,000,000, or 1,200,000,000, the NBC clause would still only apply to just two people or two elected positions. TWO! T-W-O! TWO! Not native citizen, not naturalized citizen (or statutory) but natural born citizen. It’s not complicated!

I don’t have the exact NBC clause verbiage memorized, but born in the good old US of A (cue the Springsteen hit) of citizen parents. Well, yer’ parents have to be citizens AND every human (at least for the time being) has two parents at one time or another. Using a little lawyerly vernacular there (thank you very much.)

Finally, allegiance to our country. Is it too much to ask for a little loyalty? Exhibit ONE: See the effect in the ‘One’ residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Now you may be thinking or I may have proven that I am a simpleton, but I think I get WHAT THE FOUNDERS MEANT by the institution of the NBC clause. I hope that I haven’t been too loquacious for today’s readers.

;o)

freepersup


1,226 posted on 01/28/2012 8:50:41 PM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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To: Danae
Ther IS a SCOTUS case which clearly and specifically defined Natural Born Citizen, and someone with your gift with words should be able to get it. “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168.”

What is the simple breakdown of this holding?

No.

Not a holding. Loose talk by the Court (dicta). The question of Natural Born under Article II was not before the court.

1,227 posted on 01/28/2012 9:33:35 PM PST by David
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To: David

David, I asked you a question in post 1,218. Perhaps you didn’t see it. Here it is again.

If you were the attorney handling these ballot challenge hearings for plaintiffs, what cases would you cite to declare Barack Obama ineligible for Article 2 Section 1?


1,228 posted on 01/28/2012 9:37:50 PM PST by Obama Exposer
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To: Seizethecarp
“You are correct about Minor—it has no application in the Georgia case.”

Just like every gun right case prior to Heller had no application to personal gun rights to self-protection?

No. Minor has no application here. As a legal proposition, it is not precedent; the ancestry of the parties had nothing to do with the result and Article II of the Constitution was not at issue. The commentary about parents is dicta.

No, nothing to do with Heller either. There was clearly a division on the question of the application of the Second Amendment. And the parties spent a great deal of money and effort setting up a sound factual case on which to present the legal issue.

And the politics are also instructive. A strong majority of Americans think the Second Amendment guarantees their right to keep and bear guns.

A strong majority of American's thought Zero should be President. If the law were clearly to the contrary, the Court would take an opportunity and hear the case and throw him out. It is clear that the Court does not think that is the state of the law and the facts.

There is another undercurrent in operation here. There isn't any doubt that the only issue is place of birth. And it appears to me that certain people--Roger Ailes; John Roberts; Dick Cheney; a number of others (relatives of some of the players); know that in fact, zero was born in the US. That is the primary reason no one is paying attention to this issue.

Now whether that knowledge is factually sound or not may be another question. We are entitled to pursue the issue to find out.

The Liberal Bar, as you say, has a consensus that the NBC language in MvH is dicta, but the Liberal Bar also had a consensus that the right to keep and bear arms was a right only of well regulated state militias and NOT an individual right.

No. You need to read more carefully--I didn't say anything about consensus or opinion. The parent language in Minor is dicta.

And wrong again, there was a clear division in the view of the Second Amendment and an in fact division among the circuits.

1,229 posted on 01/28/2012 9:50:56 PM PST by David
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To: David
Sorry. You are completely wrong.

Read the following IN DETAIL.

Minor v. Happersett Revisited. Posted in Uncategorized on January 9, 2012 by naturalborncitizen

[My previous report was in three parts, with the first being a rather extensive exposure of a misquote by the SCOTUS in both McCreery v. Somerville and Wong Kim Ark. The second part exposed fraudulent propaganda from Maskell's most recent CRS memo. And the final part examined Minor v. Happersett in light of some of the arguments being offered against its precedent, providing new analysis of key provisions of the holding therein. I am reprinting the section on Minor now as a separate post because it is crucial to understanding the case, and it appears to have been somewhat swallowed up by the first two parts.]

MINOR v. HAPPERSETT REVISITED.

…the only time the US Supreme Court ever did define the class of persons who were POTUS eligible under Article 2 Section 1 was in Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874), wherein it was held:

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168.

There’s a quote for you. It really exists. And it tells you exactly who are natural-born citizens; those born in the country of parents who are citizens. The words are plain-spoken and self-evident. There are two classes of persons discussed in the above quotation. Those born in the country of citizen parents were labeled by the Court as “natives or natural-born citizens”, but these were also further identified as being “distinguished from aliens or foreigners”. The distinction is crucial.

On one side are those who have no citizenship other than that of the United States… as distinguished from those on the polar opposite side who have absolutely no claim to citizenship in the United States; “These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Those who fall in between these two extremes make up a third class of persons whose citizenship status, the Court noted, was subject to doubt:

“Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of the parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.” Id. (Emphasis added.)

Had this third class been contemplated as having any claim to being natural-born citizens, the distinction employed by the court would not make sense. The distinction was employed to more specifically identify the class of persons who were natural-born citizens under Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5. The two classes discussed are in direct polar opposition to each other. Had this distinction not been employed, it might be argued that those born in the country of one citizen parent were also natural-born. But the distinction leads to the necessary conclusion that the Court in Minor was identifying a two-citizen parent rule.

For example, a person born in the US to a British father and U.S. citizen mother would, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution (and at the time Minor v. Happersett was decided), be considered as a natural-born subject of the U.K. Whether this child would be, at his birth, a citizen under the 14th amendment, was left undecided by the Court in Minor. But let’s assume that the child was a U.S. citizen. Where does that child fit into the distinction offered by the Court in Minor? The child is not on either polar extreme, since the child was not exclusively a US citizen at birth, nor was the child exclusively a British subject at birth. He does not fit into the distinction.

By choosing two extremes – those who, at their birth, are nothing but U.S. citizens – “as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” – those who, at their birth, are in no way U.S. citizens – the Supreme Court in Minor provided the necessary criteria to properly discern their holding.

Nothing has been left open as to the Minor Court’s definition of a natural-born citizen. This is further made clear by the Court’s other – somewhat overlooked – federal citizenship holding:

“The very idea of a political community, such as a nation is, implies an association of persons for the promotion of their general welfare. Each one of the persons associated becomes a member of the nation formed by the association…

For convenience it has been found necessary to give a name to this membership. The object is to designate by a title the person and the relation he bears to the nation. For this purpose the words ‘subject,’ ‘inhabitant,’ and ‘citizen’ have been used, and the choice between them is sometimes made to depend upon the form of the government. Citizen is now more commonly employed, however, and as it has been considered better suited to the description of one living under a republican government, it was adopted by nearly all of the States upon their separation from Great Britain, and was afterwards adopted in the Articles of Confederation and in the Constitution of the United States. When used in this sense it is understood as conveying the idea of membership of a nation, and nothing more.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 165-166 (1874). (Emphasis added.)

Therefore, when the Court uses the words, “citizen” or “citizenship”, no other meaning may be imputed other than, “membership of a nation”. But Jack Maskell believes he can overrule this specific holding of the Supreme Court by inserting the words “natural-born” where they do not appear. ”Natural-born” only pertains to a requirement for the municipal office of President. Those who are natural-born meet that qualification, but all who are citizens, natural-born, naturalized abroad, naturalized here, at birth or later in life, are members of our nation. The word citizen – according to the Supreme Court in Minor – refers to “membership of a nation, and nothing more“. It’s the “nothing more” that Maskell fails to recognize.

In Maskell’s CRS memo, he alleges that the following statement from Minor left open the issue of whether persons born of aliens could be considered as natural-born citizens:

“Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.” Id. at 167-168. (Emphasis added.)

Reading this passage in light of the definition of “citizen” from pg. 166 of Minor’s unanimous opinion, it becomes evident that what is referred to here is membership in our nation, and nothing more. Any attempt to insert the words – “natural-born” – into this passage to imply that the court left open the issue of whether those whose citizenship was in doubt might also be eligible to be President would be in direct opposition to the Court’s very holding of the case. This expression of doubt must be limited to the political status of the person, not to their eligibility to hold a municipal office. Political status is a legal term of art which means, “membership in a nation, and nothing more”. Presidential eligibility refers to municipal status. The holding not only determined Virginia Minor’s citizenship, it directly defined “citizen”, and that definition remains the law of the land today.

First, on pgs. 165-166, the Court defined the meaning of the word “citizen”. Then, on pgs. 167-168, the court defined the class of “natural-born citizens”. The Court left open the issue of who were “citizens” under the 14th Amendment, which the Court wisely avoided by exercising judicial constraint. Instead, the Court construed Article 2 Section 1, Clause 5, the natural-born citizen clause. In doing so, they defined and closed that class to persons born in the country to parents who are citizens.

The Minor Court’s unanimous opinion and definition of natural-born citizen have never been overruled or even questioned. In fact, the very passage defining the natural-born citizen class was re-stated in Justice Gray’s opinion from Wong Kim Ark. Had he intended to take issue with that definition, or to expand it, then his opinion would certainly contain something like this:

Wong Kim Ark is a natural-born citizen eligible to be President.

But no such statement exists. It’s also important to remember at all times that the Court in Minor specifically avoided construction of the 14th Amendment, thereby defining the class of natural-born citizens and identifying Virginia Minor as a member of that class. Virginia Minor directly petitioned the Court to determine that she was a citizen under the 14th Amendment. But the Minor Court declined to construe the 14th Amendment, and thereafter set about defining the class of persons who were natural-born citizens of the United States in determining that she was a citizen.

In 1996, the US Supreme Court’s majority opinion by Justice Breyer in Ogilvie Et Al., Minors v. United States, 519 U.S. 79 (1996), stated that when the Court discusses a certain reason as an independent ground in support of their decision, then that reason is not simply dictum:

“Although we gave other reasons for our holding in Schleier as well, we explicitly labeled this reason an ‘independent’ ground in support of our decision, id., at 334. We cannot accept petitioners’ claim that it was simply a dictum.”

The Minor Court’s construction of Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5, of the United States Constitution was the independent ground by which the Court avoided construing the 14th Amendment’s citizenship clause.

Therefore, such construction is precedent, not dicta, despite POTUS eligibility not being an issue. The Court determined it was necessary to define the class of natural-born citizens, and the definition is current legal precedent.

Had the Court in Wong Kim Ark identified him as a natural-born citizen, there would have been no need to construe the 14th Amendment, just as it wasn’t necessary to construe it to determine Virginia Minor’s citizenship. But Wong Kim Ark was not natural-born, and therefore the Court was required to construe the 14th Amendment to determine his citizenship status.

Again, had Justice Gray’s opinion intended to state that Ark was natural-born, there would be a sentence in Gray’s opinion stating, Wong Kim Ark is a natural-born citizen. But there isn’t. No amount of tongue twisting can insert those words where they do not exist and do not belong.

The same is true for the Supreme Court’s unanimous opinion in Minor v. Happersett. Had the court intended to say – Some authorities go further and include as natural-born citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of the parents – then that is exactly what the US Supreme Court would have said. But they didn’t.

And the same can be said for the framers of the 14th Amendment. Had they intended to include the words “natural-born citizen” in the Amendment, then that is exactly what they would have done. But they didn’t. Any attempt to read those words into the 14th Amendment would render Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5, to be superfluous. And that goes directly against our entire body of national jurisprudence on the issue of statutory construction.

I will more thoroughly address the issue of statutory construction in the days ahead. (Since the state of Georgia will be hearing this issue on Jan. 26, 2012, I have decided to come forward with everything I have now, rather than waiting to publish my book.)

Leo Donofrio, Esq.


1,230 posted on 01/28/2012 10:45:21 PM PST by Danae (Anailnathrach ortha bhais beatha do cheal deanaimha)
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To: David
"I have a fairly sophisticated way to deal with the situation but I don't have the resources to implement it yet."

"unfortunately there is some legal record that indicates that there is a birth record for him in the United States (not in the state of Hawaii)."

David, resources are always available from this group. What do you need?

and...I see from above post #1229 that you think certain people believe that O was born in country...but what's this about ("not in the state of HI")

...could you be suggesting "on the Island of HI BEFORE it became a State"...some of us have entertained the possibility that O was born prior to HI being admitted into the USA.....that would explain lack of pictures, verifiable dates, and a good reason for G'maw to start working on his false papers when he was very young...

1,231 posted on 01/28/2012 10:46:38 PM PST by bitt (Socialism works great until you run out of Chinese money.)
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To: David

Now that you have read all that, read the MOST relevant part of it in regards to your comment questioning the fact that the NBC definition is dicta:

“In 1996, the US Supreme Court’s majority opinion by Justice Breyer in Ogilvie Et Al., Minors v. United States, 519 U.S. 79 (1996), stated that when the Court discusses a certain reason as an independent ground in support of their decision, then that reason is not simply dictum:

“Although we gave other reasons for our holding in Schleier as well, we explicitly labeled this reason an ‘independent’ ground in support of our decision, id., at 334. We cannot accept petitioners’ claim that it was simply a dictum.”

The Minor Court’s construction of Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5, of the United States Constitution was the independent ground by which the Court avoided construing the 14th Amendment’s citizenship clause.

Therefore, such construction is precedent, not dicta, despite POTUS eligibility not being an issue. The Court determined it was necessary to define the class of natural-born citizens, and the definition is current legal precedent.”

1996 SCOTUS decision. Yeah, you are completely wrong. That part of Minor you discuss is part of the HOLDING of the case.


1,232 posted on 01/28/2012 10:51:17 PM PST by Danae (Anailnathrach ortha bhais beatha do cheal deanaimha)
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To: Seizethecarp

This partial posting from Donofrio totally blows that “it’s dicta” argument to hell.

“In 1996, the US Supreme Court’s majority opinion by Justice Breyer in Ogilvie Et Al., Minors v. United States, 519 U.S. 79 (1996), stated that when the Court discusses a certain reason as an independent ground in support of their decision, then that reason is not simply dictum:

“Although we gave other reasons for our holding in Schleier as well, we explicitly labeled this reason an ‘independent’ ground in support of our decision, id., at 334. We cannot accept petitioners’ claim that it was simply a dictum.”

The Minor Court’s construction of Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5, of the United States Constitution was the independent ground by which the Court avoided construing the 14th Amendment’s citizenship clause.

Therefore, such construction is precedent, not dicta, despite POTUS eligibility not being an issue. The Court determined it was necessary to define the class of natural-born citizens, and the definition is current legal precedent.”

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/minor-v-happersett-revisited-2/


1,233 posted on 01/28/2012 10:56:44 PM PST by Danae (Anailnathrach ortha bhais beatha do cheal deanaimha)
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To: Danae
Thanks Danae,

Ever feel like you are flogging a dead horse? Here- allow me to post this for the umpteenth time at FR!

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168.

“Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of the parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.” Id. (Emphasis added.)

I'm still up and vigilant as ever. Still pissed off about that Orly interview too! lol!

You've got freep mail on the way.

1,234 posted on 01/28/2012 11:01:56 PM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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To: David

“In fact, you could lay the correct foundation with the right client to address the proposition that he is not eligible.”

The burden of proof of eligibility is entirely on Obama. He declares himself eligible with the issuance of a statement of candidacy. If challenged, it is up to him to prove he is eligible.

It’s the same principle as prima facie evidence. Evidence should be taken at face value to be true and accurate unless it is challenged. If challenged, corroborative evidence is necessary.

Obama’s problems with POTUS don’t begin for him until he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, moved to Indonesia and naturalized as an Indonesian National. After he returned to America, he used the naturalization process to become an American citizen. The proof is with USCIS and SSA. Continued probing of any state DoH records is useless and a waste of time.


1,235 posted on 01/28/2012 11:04:30 PM PST by SvenMagnussen (PSALMS 37:28 For the LORD loves justice and does not abandon the faithful.)
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To: SvenMagnussen

Thanks for keeping it real- real simple that is. GRRR!!!


1,236 posted on 01/28/2012 11:09:31 PM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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To: David; Danae
“The parent language in Minor is dicta.”

So you say.

But lawyers disagree all the time...witness the 5-4 decisions frequently on SCOTUS cases including cases on what is or is not dicta!

Only the SCOTUS opinion on whether the parent language in Minor is dicta will ultimately matter, not your individual opinion, IMHO.

We may not have long to wait, if Obama continues to obstruct legitimate eligibility litigation.

1,237 posted on 01/28/2012 11:27:08 PM PST by Seizethecarp
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To: Seizethecarp

The decision in minor was 100% unanamous. There was no dissenting opinion. There was no disagreement. All the justices agreed, two parents and born in the country is sn NBC.


1,238 posted on 01/29/2012 12:27:52 AM PST by Danae (Anailnathrach ortha bhais beatha do cheal deanaimha)
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To: freepersup

Flogging a dead horse, beating a dead dog, bashing my head against a brick wall, telling my kids to go get in bed..... lil yeah something like that. :) I will go look for mail. And thank you! No one of us can do this alone! Thank you!


1,239 posted on 01/29/2012 12:31:23 AM PST by Danae (Anailnathrach ortha bhais beatha do cheal deanaimha)
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To: Danae

I freep therefore I am. Seriously, I have been an active poster for some time, at other times completely idle. Currently, a few hours here, a few hours there... today has been the exception and I am enjoying the heck out of it!

I think that most of the contributors on a thread like this are with us... there may be one or two exceptions. We ARE on the same team (debating/researching) but like any big family, have any number of personalities trying at once/at the same time, to get someone else to pay attention to their idea or opinion.

OK time to trail off and hit the hay. All is forgiven. ;o) Pleasant dreams.


1,240 posted on 01/29/2012 12:51:08 AM PST by freepersup (Hi, I'm Michael Jablonski, and right about now my you know what is tighter than a tree's rings.)
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