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Einstein Avenged: Neutrinos Bow to Light Speed Laws ("E=MC2, Dammit!")
TechNewsWorld ^ | 06/08/12 | Richard Adhikari

Posted on 06/08/2012 8:33:17 PM PDT by presidio9

Eight months after the multinational Opera research team caused an uproar among physicists with its findings that some neutrinos appeared to travel faster than light, its findings have been officially refuted.

CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, on Friday said that four experiments have found that neutrinos actually travel no faster than the speed of light.

Opera's original measurements can be attributed to a faulty element of its experiment's fiber optic timing system, CERN said.

The findings were announced at the 25th International Conference on Neutrino Physics and Astrophysics in Kyoto, Japan, by CERN research director Sergio Bertolucci.

Life in the Fast Neutrino Lane

Opera's initial findings, announced in September, triggered skepticism among the scientific community because, if validated, they could have meant that Einstein's theory of special relativity was wrong. Special relativity will only hold true when space-time is flat, and if the theory is wrong, it could mean that the curvature of space is hidden somehow.

Another possibility suggested by faster-than-light neutrinos was that special relativity doesn't apply to neutrinos. That would have impacted quantum theory because it's based on the balance between quantum behavior and special relativity.

A neutrino is an electrically neutral elementary subatomic particle with a small mass that usually travels close to the speed of light.

The Opera Experiment

The Opera team shot a high-intensity, high-energy beam of muon neutrinos produced at the CERN SPS accelerator in Geneva at the LNGS underground laboratory at Gran Sasso in Italy, 730 km (454 miles) away and measured the speed at which the neutrinos emitted traveled.

Preparations for the experiment were apparently meticulous. The Opera team worked with experts in metrology, or the science of measurement, from CERN and other institutions to measure the distance between CERN SPS and LNGS with an uncertainty of 20 cm (7.9 inches) over 730 km. Advanced GPS systems, atomic clocks and other sophisticated instruments were used to ensure the scientists could measure the neutrinos' time of flight to within less than 10 nanoseconds of accuracy.

The neutrinos' velocity was determined using high-statistics data collated by the Opera neutrino detector at LNGS from 2009. This detector consists of two identical Super Modules, each being an instrumented target section with a mass of about 625 tons followed by a magnetic muon spectrometer.

It took the neutrinos about three milliseconds to travel the 730 km. This is a measure of the time distribution of protons each time the beam was fired, aggregated and normalized. It's not possible to precisely measure the time of flight of any single neutrino because any proton might produce the neutrino detected by the Opera detector.

E=MC2, Dammit!

Four teams conducted experiments at Gran Sasso in May to check Opera's findings. They are Opera, Borexino, Icarus, and LVD.

Borexino, Icarus, Japan's T2K experiment and the United States' Minos experiment were originally slated to conduct the cross-checks, and it's unclear why the lineup was changed.

"Each experiment necessarily has its own timing system to record the time of its events," Michael Witherell, vice chancellor for research at the University of California Santa Barbara's physics department, told TechNewsWorld.

Opera's discovery of problems with its timing system was announced on Feb. 23, Witherell said. "At that time, CERN said that Opera would have their first neutrino run with the repaired timing system in May. Apparently, all four experiments ran in that May run, and all say transit times were consistent with the speed of light."

Into the Sun

In October,


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: fordtorino; neutrinos; oldtrinos; stringtheory
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1 posted on 06/08/2012 8:33:22 PM PDT by presidio9
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To: presidio9

They ain’t no Einstein.


2 posted on 06/08/2012 8:37:25 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: presidio9

Did Einstein ever explain why, of all the various particles flying around the universe, photons are the fastest?


3 posted on 06/08/2012 8:40:30 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard

Did he ever consider that the speed of light was not an historical constant?


4 posted on 06/08/2012 8:47:45 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: Lancey Howard

A photon at rest has no mass. They exist in waves as carriers of light energy.


5 posted on 06/08/2012 8:50:17 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: doc1019
Is MC2 related to MC Hammer? ( I know, it's E=MC2. Tryin' to make a science joke here.)
6 posted on 06/08/2012 8:52:07 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Lancey Howard
Did Einstein ever explain why, of all the various particles flying around the universe, photons are the fastest?

They are like lapsed Catholics, massless.

7 posted on 06/08/2012 8:52:07 PM PDT by this_ol_patriot
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To: presidio9

Dammit Jim.....it is the stuff of fiction!


8 posted on 06/08/2012 8:52:49 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: Lancey Howard

They’e not just fast. The lose no time at all. No matter how far they travel they arrive in the present of when they left.


9 posted on 06/08/2012 8:55:22 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: presidio9

Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. (the observable universe is 46 billion light years wide, started at a single point, and is 13.7 billion years old,,,hmmmm)


10 posted on 06/08/2012 8:57:39 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: MHGinTN

11 posted on 06/08/2012 9:00:34 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: KevinDavis; annie laurie; Knitting A Conundrum; Viking2002; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Mmogamer; ...
Thanks presidio9.


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

12 posted on 06/08/2012 9:02:45 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: presidio9

That picture was so big I had to shrink my resolution to 75% to see it all! Give an old man a break will ya?


13 posted on 06/08/2012 9:03:56 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: MHGinTN
From the photon's point of view, it is created and destroyed in the same instant, basically it doesn't exists from its’ perspective (zero time has passed for it) :^)
14 posted on 06/08/2012 9:06:06 PM PDT by The Cajun (Sarah Palin, Mark Levin......Nuff said.)
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
They ain’t no Einstein.

They ain't even Roget. "Einstein Vindicated" would have been better.

15 posted on 06/08/2012 9:08:40 PM PDT by Lady Lucky (God-issued, not govt-issued.)
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To: presidio9
e=mc2 - it isn't just good advice, it's the law.
16 posted on 06/08/2012 9:08:40 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: The Cajun

Hmmm, sounds a lot like virtual particles, from our perspective. I wonder, could it be that dimension Time has different variable expressions we don’t realize yet, from our special place of observation, situated as we are in the present but sensing only past events? we extrapolate real good though ...


17 posted on 06/08/2012 9:11:38 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: presidio9

Cut to the chase. Does this mean humans will never get star travel?


18 posted on 06/08/2012 9:28:16 PM PDT by Ronin (Dumb, dependent and Democrat is no way to go through life - Rep. L. Gohmert, Tex)
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To: Ronin

Does going to the sun count?


19 posted on 06/08/2012 9:36:39 PM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: DesertRhino

Nothing can travel through space faster than light. But the expansion of the universe isn’t an expansion in space, it’s an expansion of space. Space can expand faster than the speed of light. This does not violate the lightspeed limit within space.

In other words, nothing in the universe can travel FTL but the universe itself is expanding FTL.


20 posted on 06/08/2012 9:41:58 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: samtheman

Nice try,, and i know we always get told evasions like that. But the standard constant, speed of light, is expressed as being in a vacuum.
Same thing as into nothingness, unless you also believe in dark matter.


21 posted on 06/08/2012 9:46:45 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa; Ronin
> Does going to the sun count?

Only if you're very careful to not get sun-burned. You have to sneak up on it, at night.

22 posted on 06/08/2012 9:48:46 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: Ronin

Not at all! Read the story found in the fifth chapter of Daniel, Old Testament. we just haven’t learned how to get back and forth from wherever that being stood when they reached into Belshazzar’s palace party central. And don’t forget that jesus left the burial wrappings and the stone tomb without unwrapping or rolling away the stone. He appear in a locked and shuttered room and vanished right before the eyes of two whom had walked with on the road, after he broke bread with them. Star jumping won’t be any big deal once God allows us to know how He did those things He wrote down for us in the Bible.


23 posted on 06/08/2012 9:52:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Ronin

From one reference frame - yes.

From another reference frame - no.

Both are true at the same time, but not REALLY at the same time. It just looks that way to an observer in a third reference frame.

Real Reality 101


24 posted on 06/08/2012 9:59:08 PM PDT by muffaletaman (IMNSHO - I MIGHT be wrong, but I doubt it.)
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To: presidio9

How can they see what is faster than light. That means a clock would hace to go backwards.


25 posted on 06/08/2012 10:17:35 PM PDT by RightLady (Throw the Traitors out)
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To: this_ol_patriot

Now that’s a great line......


26 posted on 06/08/2012 10:20:21 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: presidio9

27 posted on 06/08/2012 10:33:16 PM PDT by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: DesertRhino

186,000 mps

It’s not just a good idea.

It’s the law.

And it applies to all moving things inside the universe.

But it doesn’t apply to the rate of expansion of the universe itself.


28 posted on 06/08/2012 10:38:39 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: Lancey Howard; presidio9
Did Einstein ever explain why, of all the various particles flying around the universe, photons are the fastest?

I agree with Presidio9.

Only particles with NO MASS can be propelled to the speed of light, in 'light' of Einstein's Mathematical Expression.

The less mass a particle has, the closer to the speed of light it can get.

The only question I have, is there some massless particle (or a particle with a negative mass) that can travel faster than the speed of light?

29 posted on 06/08/2012 10:44:28 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: Ronin
Does this mean humans will never get star travel?

Not with any kind of reaction engine anyway. What we have now propels the craft forward by expelling reaction mass backward (equal and opposite). To exceed the speed of light you would need to expel mass at greater than the speed of light. I'm no rocket scientist, but I don't see how we can do that.

Guess we'll have to cheat in some sci-fi fashion, like harnessing wormholes or folding space...

30 posted on 06/08/2012 10:48:20 PM PDT by ZOOKER ( Exploring the fine line between cynicism and outright depression)
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To: DesertRhino
Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. (the observable universe is 46 billion light years wide, started at a single point, and is 13.7 billion years old

If you work out the math, matter past the edge of the 'known' universe (which must constantly be accelerating, in order for the expansion to remain constant) is already way past the speed of light. We may never ever be able to 'see' the entire Universe, for that very reason.

Now, if the Universe is 'infinite', then the speed of light is constant.

Mull that over a little.

31 posted on 06/08/2012 10:50:01 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: UCANSEE2

Tachyons for your tea, sir?


32 posted on 06/08/2012 10:51:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: The Cajun
From the photon's point of view, it is created and destroyed in the same instant

Now I know why my monitor 'flickers' all the time.

33 posted on 06/08/2012 10:52:09 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: The Cajun
From the photon's point of view, it is created and destroyed in the same instant, basically it doesn't exists from its’ perspective

Well... we can see photons, but then we aren't looking from 'their' point of view.

Has anyone held them up to a mirror? I know I can see myself from my point of view, if I do.

34 posted on 06/08/2012 10:55:43 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN

For all we know, ‘we’ (the particles that make up our mass) may be created/destroyed in an instant, over and over.


35 posted on 06/08/2012 10:57:29 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: samtheman
In other words, nothing in the universe can travel FTL but the universe itself is expanding FTL.

Or... the universe is infinite.

Can you prove it is not?

36 posted on 06/08/2012 10:59:33 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: ZOOKER
I'm no rocket scientist, but I don't see how we can do that.

Use particles that have a negative mass.

37 posted on 06/08/2012 11:02:39 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN
Tachyons for your tea, sir?

Sorry, I use chocolate milk in my tea. I get it from the center of the Milk Way Galaxy.

38 posted on 06/08/2012 11:04:53 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN
Tachyons for your tea, sir?

Sorry, I use chocolate milk in my tea. I get it from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

39 posted on 06/08/2012 11:05:06 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: UCANSEE2

Which brings me to the question I’ve been itching to address: since speed is a function of distance and time, what if science discovers that Time is actually three variables, past —as in a linear function-, present -as in a planar function—, and future —as in a volumetric function? If we discover a way to create a temporal shift/disruption in the bond of ‘linear, planar, and volumetric time’ in front of a space craft (kind of on the order of a shock wave or cavitation for a submarine nose), would moving be still a function of distance and time spent covering that distance, or would distant points in space be in the present of the space craft and remain so while traversing the distance, like a photon does it?


40 posted on 06/08/2012 11:06:55 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: UCANSEE2

I use French Vanilla creamer in my tea ... I like cream tea.


41 posted on 06/08/2012 11:08:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: samtheman
But it doesn’t apply to the rate of expansion of the universe itself.

If the Universe is made of empty space, and expanding, what do we call the part the Universe is expanding into?

And how big is it?

42 posted on 06/08/2012 11:08:15 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN
But it doesn’t apply to the rate of expansion of the universe itself.

Wow. I don't have any answer to that.

IF you were in a spaceship, way out in interstellar space, how would you know how fast you were going?

What immovable point would you measure from?

If you left the Earth at , say, 100,000mph and exited our galaxy, would you still be going 100,000 mph?

43 posted on 06/08/2012 11:13:41 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN

(oops) I meant to quote your comment from post 40.

It must be late. Or, I’ve gone past the edge of the known universe.


44 posted on 06/08/2012 11:16:38 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: UCANSEE2
The only question I have, is there some massless particle (or a particle with a negative mass) that can travel faster than the speed of light?

(shrug) There must be, or there wouldn't be any energy. Because, after all, energy is equal to mass times the speed of light squared.

45 posted on 06/08/2012 11:17:29 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard
Light Squared.


46 posted on 06/08/2012 11:24:38 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: MHGinTN
That's the weird old theory the photon's reference frame is not our 3 spacial dimensions and one temporal dimension reference frame.
No time or distance involved.
It explains "spooky action at a distance" for me.
47 posted on 06/08/2012 11:26:07 PM PDT by The Cajun (Sarah Palin, Mark Levin......Nuff said.)
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To: UCANSEE2

Gravity or links between entangled particles, to name a few, are other “things” to consider, that may/do travel faster than C; but then these “things”, among others, are likely neither E nor M. :)


48 posted on 06/08/2012 11:28:32 PM PDT by Errant
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To: doc1019

“Did he ever consider that the speed of light was not an historical constant?”

Actually that is the exact exit that he chose

TT


49 posted on 06/08/2012 11:34:11 PM PDT by TexasTransplant (Radical islam is islam. Moderate islam is the Trojan Horse.)
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To: UCANSEE2
The only question I have, is there some massless particle (or a particle with a negative mass) that can travel faster than the speed of light?

The math of relativity tells us that in order to move faster than C you must have an imaginary (square root of -1) rest mass, whatever that means.

50 posted on 06/08/2012 11:34:53 PM PDT by Mycroft Holmes (<= Mash name for HTML Xampp PHP C JavaScript primer. Programming for everyone.)
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