Posted on 12/15/2014 2:48:11 PM PST by Oldeconomybuyer
People who own all-electric cars where coal generates the power may think they are helping the environment. But a new study finds their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming.
Ethanol isn't so green, either.
"It's kind of hard to beat gasoline" for public and environmental health, said study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the University of Minnesota. "A lot of the technologies that we think of as being clean ... are not better than gasoline."
(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...
Those numbers are BS. We get 12.7 kWh of electricity per gallon of petroleum (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=667&t=2) and lose 10-15% getting it to the consumer.
The Volt gets about 45 miles from a charge and it takes about 12 kWh to charge the battery. So the Volt is about 40 mpg.
The Leaf uses 34 kWh per 100 miles or about 33 mpg.
That figure would be relevant if we got 60% of our electricity from petroleum. It might even be worth mentioning if we got 30% of our electricity from petroleum. You could even be excused for bringing it up if we got 10% of our electricity from petroleum.
However, it is absolutely irrelevant since we only get 1% of our electricity from petroleum.
I think I'll just trust KBB’s numbers instead.
My wife has a Toyota Camry Hybrid. It’s rated at 40/38, and she consistently gets 38-39 driving in the city. But, it’s lower on the highway, as the regenerative system can’t be used for braking and acceleration when you are running at a constant speed.
There's also a home CNG refueling station, if you have the ability to install one in your garage.
That's true for most Prii (?).
However, Toyota has been selling a plug-in Prius since 2013. It's a bit more expensive and I'm not sure about availability:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius-plug-in/years.html?sub=hatchback
12 kWH for 45 miles means 12,000 divided by 150 square-meter-hours. Divided by 45 and you get a little under 2 square meter hours per mile. (IOW 2 square meters of solar panels for one hour for each mile driven).
If you want to use the power grid mix instead then you must use retail prices because those represent the costs (my electric company and all their suppliers are non-profit). That means $1.68 for those 45 miles in my case in Virginia. With $3 gas that is 80 mpg equivalent (for the Volt).
In the 80 mpg equivalent I did not count taxes which are 36 cents including federal and Virginia taxes.
Let’s face it - In relative size of combined their power generation wind, solar, and wave are more of a national hobby than a serious component of the electrical generation industry.
At their present levels they are window dressing as a sop to greenies and to make politicians look good but not significant contributors.
And the cost per kilowatt generated is up to 10 or 20 times more than coal plants.
In fact, no other power source can match the economic efficiency and low cost of coal and no other single power source generates as much electrical power for the nation as coal.
And the same people who oppose coal fired electrical generation also oppose generation powered by petroleum and nuclear (especially nuclear) even though they are cleaner than coal.
I don’t think the average person is aware of how much of their life is powered by, and dependent upon, electrical power since so much of it is more or less hidden from their immediate view.
If (when) the sewage pumps and water pumps and electrical power for electronic devices, home heating, gasoline pumps and electric car battery chargers fail they will start to understand.
As long as E-10 can stand on its own merits I don’t have an issue, unfortunately, the green machine thinks the next step is E-15 and that is a bridge too far IMHO.
First sentence is true, second sentence is false. You are exactly right when you say you have to look at “how much energy it takes to create the electricity”. It is for that very reason that you ignore petroleum because it only contributes 1% of what “it takes to create the electricity”.
When they talk about petroleum generating electricity, they are talking about diesel generators. No one in the utility industry likes using diesel, it is only used for emergency backup or for the few hours during the hottest days of the summer when you need 101% of of your grid's capacity. Using petroleum (diesel) is the most expensive way of generating electricity that utilities can use.
So you are cherry picking the worst possible electricity generation source in order to use as a comparison. Nice try.
“If you want to use the power grid mix instead then you must use retail prices...”
Bingo! Now that is the correct way to compare. Hopefully now we can be done with this diesel-generated electricity nonsense.
“In the 80 mpg equivalent I did not count taxes which are 36 cents including federal and Virginia taxes.”
Are you exempt from gasoline taxes? Unless you would be using the Volt as farm equipment, the answer is probably no. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to remove taxes. Instead we have to use real-world gasoline prices and compare them to real-world electricity prices. My “60% less for electricity” figure was admittedly based on gas prices before the recent drop in oil prices (which most people believe is temporary).
Regardless, it sounds like you live in an area of the country with some of the cheapest gas. Good for you. Your savings for switching to electric car would be less than the rest of the country.
Yep.
“In fact, no other power source can match the economic efficiency and low cost of coal...”
Except for natural gas. (source, scroll down to Table 1)
“And the same people who oppose coal fired electrical generation also oppose generation powered by petroleum and nuclear (especially nuclear) even though they are cleaner than coal.”
My main reason for getting us off of oil is energy security. I voted for Bush and was one of many Americans who bought the story that the Iraq War had nothing to do with oil. With the blood and treasure we spent on that trillion dollar war and the tens of billions we spend every year policing the Persian Gulf, I'm ready to be done with our country's dependence on oil.
I'll take American made electricity to power my car over oil any day, whether it be from coal, natural gas, nuclear, or hydro.
That should be our guiding principle.
You have it backwards. The tax is high for gasoline. The tax is low for eletricity. Therefore if you want to compare costs, you should subtract all the taxes, otherwise electricity looks cheaper due to less tax.
How’s he doing financially with the Uber?
It sounds interesting to me.
Sorry, but when we make financial decisions here in the real world, they are based on what it actually costs us, bottom line. Not some fantasy tax-free wonderland that you think should be used.
He's leasing the plugin Prius, so he'll likely have to pay something for exceeding lease mileage.
I'll worry about him if he doesn't make rent. (he lives in my mother's house, I manage her affairs - but that's yet another story)
Why do you think I insisted we buy a Camry? :-)
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