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Why Your All-Electric Car May Not Be So Green
ABC News ^ | December 15, 2014 | By SETH BORENSTEIN AP Science Writer

Posted on 12/15/2014 2:48:11 PM PST by Oldeconomybuyer

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To: LogicDesigner
Quite right, but the car was not a hybrid with an auxiliary internal combustion engine to back-up the batteries. All things considered, this trip hardly demonstrated the superiority of the EV over fossil fuel vehicles. The whole escapade came off as an embarrassment.
61 posted on 12/16/2014 3:58:46 AM PST by MasterGunner01
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To: LogicDesigner
According to Kelly Blue Book it is 98 mpg equivalent for the Chevy Volt and 114 mpg equivalent for the Nissan Leaf.

Those numbers are BS. We get 12.7 kWh of electricity per gallon of petroleum (http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=667&t=2) and lose 10-15% getting it to the consumer.

The Volt gets about 45 miles from a charge and it takes about 12 kWh to charge the battery. So the Volt is about 40 mpg.

The Leaf uses 34 kWh per 100 miles or about 33 mpg.

62 posted on 12/16/2014 4:07:47 AM PST by palmer (Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing. Or do nothing. We want Obamanet.)
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To: palmer
“Those numbers are BS. We get 12.7 kWh of electricity per gallon of petroleum”

That figure would be relevant if we got 60% of our electricity from petroleum. It might even be worth mentioning if we got 30% of our electricity from petroleum. You could even be excused for bringing it up if we got 10% of our electricity from petroleum.

However, it is absolutely irrelevant since we only get 1% of our electricity from petroleum.

I think I'll just trust KBB’s numbers instead.

63 posted on 12/16/2014 4:25:08 AM PST by LogicDesigner
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To: Myrddin

My wife has a Toyota Camry Hybrid. It’s rated at 40/38, and she consistently gets 38-39 driving in the city. But, it’s lower on the highway, as the regenerative system can’t be used for braking and acceleration when you are running at a constant speed.


64 posted on 12/16/2014 4:25:25 AM PST by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: Dagnabitt
The Honda Civic CNG is my next test drive. There's an adequate number of CNG stations around here.

There's also a home CNG refueling station, if you have the ability to install one in your garage.

65 posted on 12/16/2014 4:28:43 AM PST by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: LogicDesigner
The Prius is a regular hybrid, but since you can't plug its battery into your wall socket, it can only be charged by its gasoline engine.

That's true for most Prii (?).

However, Toyota has been selling a plug-in Prius since 2013. It's a bit more expensive and I'm not sure about availability:

http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius-plug-in/years.html?sub=hatchback

66 posted on 12/16/2014 4:31:49 AM PST by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: LogicDesigner
KBB gets their numbers from the government. It doesn't really matter whether we get 1% of electricity from petroleum or 0.001% What matters is how much energy it takes to create the electricity needed to charge the car. If you insist on using the corrupt EPA units of mpg then you have to use petroleum. Instead if you want to use square-meter-hours of sun per mile, that's fine, but you need to pick units you can back up.

12 kWH for 45 miles means 12,000 divided by 150 square-meter-hours. Divided by 45 and you get a little under 2 square meter hours per mile. (IOW 2 square meters of solar panels for one hour for each mile driven).

If you want to use the power grid mix instead then you must use retail prices because those represent the costs (my electric company and all their suppliers are non-profit). That means $1.68 for those 45 miles in my case in Virginia. With $3 gas that is 80 mpg equivalent (for the Volt).

67 posted on 12/16/2014 5:22:27 AM PST by palmer (Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing. Or do nothing. We want Obamanet.)
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To: LogicDesigner

In the 80 mpg equivalent I did not count taxes which are 36 cents including federal and Virginia taxes.


68 posted on 12/16/2014 5:25:15 AM PST by palmer (Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing. Or do nothing. We want Obamanet.)
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To: LogicDesigner

Let’s face it - In relative size of combined their power generation wind, solar, and wave are more of a national hobby than a serious component of the electrical generation industry.

At their present levels they are window dressing as a sop to greenies and to make politicians look good but not significant contributors.

And the cost per kilowatt generated is up to 10 or 20 times more than coal plants.

In fact, no other power source can match the economic efficiency and low cost of coal and no other single power source generates as much electrical power for the nation as coal.

And the same people who oppose coal fired electrical generation also oppose generation powered by petroleum and nuclear (especially nuclear) even though they are cleaner than coal.

I don’t think the average person is aware of how much of their life is powered by, and dependent upon, electrical power since so much of it is more or less hidden from their immediate view.

If (when) the sewage pumps and water pumps and electrical power for electronic devices, home heating, gasoline pumps and electric car battery chargers fail they will start to understand.


69 posted on 12/16/2014 6:15:36 AM PST by Iron Munro (D.H.S. has the same headcount as the US Marine Corps with twice the budget)
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To: nascarnation

As long as E-10 can stand on its own merits I don’t have an issue, unfortunately, the green machine thinks the next step is E-15 and that is a bridge too far IMHO.


70 posted on 12/16/2014 6:21:49 AM PST by wita
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To: palmer
“What matters is how much energy it takes to create the electricity needed to charge the car. If you insist on using the corrupt EPA units of mpg then you have to use petroleum.”

First sentence is true, second sentence is false. You are exactly right when you say you have to look at “how much energy it takes to create the electricity”. It is for that very reason that you ignore petroleum because it only contributes 1% of what “it takes to create the electricity”.

When they talk about petroleum generating electricity, they are talking about diesel generators. No one in the utility industry likes using diesel, it is only used for emergency backup or for the few hours during the hottest days of the summer when you need 101% of of your grid's capacity. Using petroleum (diesel) is the most expensive way of generating electricity that utilities can use.

So you are cherry picking the worst possible electricity generation source in order to use as a comparison. Nice try.

“If you want to use the power grid mix instead then you must use retail prices...”

Bingo! Now that is the correct way to compare. Hopefully now we can be done with this diesel-generated electricity nonsense.

“In the 80 mpg equivalent I did not count taxes which are 36 cents including federal and Virginia taxes.”

Are you exempt from gasoline taxes? Unless you would be using the Volt as farm equipment, the answer is probably no. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to remove taxes. Instead we have to use real-world gasoline prices and compare them to real-world electricity prices. My “60% less for electricity” figure was admittedly based on gas prices before the recent drop in oil prices (which most people believe is temporary).

Regardless, it sounds like you live in an area of the country with some of the cheapest gas. Good for you. Your savings for switching to electric car would be less than the rest of the country.

71 posted on 12/16/2014 7:01:33 AM PST by LogicDesigner
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To: Iron Munro
“Let’s face it - In relative size of combined their power generation wind, solar, and wave are more of a national hobby than a serious component of the electrical generation industry.”

Yep.

“In fact, no other power source can match the economic efficiency and low cost of coal...”

Except for natural gas. (source, scroll down to Table 1)

“And the same people who oppose coal fired electrical generation also oppose generation powered by petroleum and nuclear (especially nuclear) even though they are cleaner than coal.”

My main reason for getting us off of oil is energy security. I voted for Bush and was one of many Americans who bought the story that the Iraq War had nothing to do with oil. With the blood and treasure we spent on that trillion dollar war and the tens of billions we spend every year policing the Persian Gulf, I'm ready to be done with our country's dependence on oil.

I'll take American made electricity to power my car over oil any day, whether it be from coal, natural gas, nuclear, or hydro.

72 posted on 12/16/2014 7:20:16 AM PST by LogicDesigner
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To: LogicDesigner
I'll take American made electricity to power my car over oil any day, whether it be from coal, natural gas, nuclear, or hydro.

That should be our guiding principle.

73 posted on 12/16/2014 8:08:59 AM PST by Iron Munro (D.H.S. has the same headcount as the US Marine Corps with twice the budget)
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To: LogicDesigner
Are you exempt from gasoline taxes? Unless you would be using the Volt as farm equipment, the answer is probably no.

You have it backwards. The tax is high for gasoline. The tax is low for eletricity. Therefore if you want to compare costs, you should subtract all the taxes, otherwise electricity looks cheaper due to less tax.

74 posted on 12/16/2014 8:39:35 AM PST by palmer (Free is when you don't have to pay for nothing. Or do nothing. We want Obamanet.)
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To: justlurking
My brother has the plug in Prius. (which he now uses as an Uber driver, but that's a different story). Seems like a solid vehicle, but I can't get past the whole Prius look/vibe. It's like driving a lefty cliche. Pretty sure a conservative bumper sticker would void the warranty.
75 posted on 12/16/2014 9:42:39 AM PST by Dagnabitt (Amnesty is Treason. Its agents and supporters are Traitors.)
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To: Dagnabitt

How’s he doing financially with the Uber?

It sounds interesting to me.


76 posted on 12/16/2014 9:44:40 AM PST by nascarnation (Impeach, Convict, Deport)
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To: palmer
“Therefore if you want to compare costs, you should subtract all the taxes, otherwise electricity looks cheaper due to less tax.”

Sorry, but when we make financial decisions here in the real world, they are based on what it actually costs us, bottom line. Not some fantasy tax-free wonderland that you think should be used.

77 posted on 12/16/2014 9:50:42 AM PST by LogicDesigner
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To: justlurking
Toyota has been a solid performer with their Prius line. I'm not surprised to hear the Camry is well executed. Have you scanned the vehicle for radioactive contamination?
78 posted on 12/16/2014 9:53:06 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: nascarnation
He's doing Uber after getting laid off early this year by an aerospace company after 20 years where he had an admin/clerical job. He says he does OK, but he has to make most of his money at night driving bar patrons around. I told him someone was going to barf in his car some day (it eventually happened). He only picks up in good parts of town, but he can't control where the patrons want to go. I don't pry much about what "OK" means, but he once said he made $200 on a very long Saturday night.

He's leasing the plugin Prius, so he'll likely have to pay something for exceeding lease mileage.

I'll worry about him if he doesn't make rent. (he lives in my mother's house, I manage her affairs - but that's yet another story)

79 posted on 12/16/2014 9:59:34 AM PST by Dagnabitt (Amnesty is Treason. Its agents and supporters are Traitors.)
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To: Dagnabitt
Seems like a solid vehicle, but I can't get past the whole Prius look/vibe. It's like driving a lefty cliche.

Why do you think I insisted we buy a Camry? :-)

80 posted on 12/16/2014 10:00:47 AM PST by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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