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NYPD “Phase Three” Malfunctions (Glock Problems)
The Gun Zone ^ | 2002 | Sean L. McMahon, Lieutenant, NYPD, Retired

Posted on 07/31/2002 2:49:32 PM PDT by 45Auto

Edited on 05/24/2003 12:19:22 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

So begins the typical conversation about an annoying gremlin that has been irritating the New York City Police Department Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS) and Glock, Inc. for approximately six years. When NYPD began experiencing a specific type of malfunction, apparently endemic to the Glock Model 19 service weapon, sometime in 1996, the FTS coined the term "Phase Three" to identify this particular non-reducible stoppage, described as basically a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; enviralists; glock; malfunction; phase3
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There's a lot of information and also a lot of personal opinion in this site. The poster does not necessarily agree or disagree with the opinions expressed in this article.
1 posted on 07/31/2002 2:49:32 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: Vic3O3
Ping for further study.

Semper Fi
2 posted on 07/31/2002 2:57:27 PM PDT by dd5339
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To: 45Auto
Howdy

Aww, c'mon, us non glock folks are eating it up!

I doan like em never will.

3 posted on 07/31/2002 3:00:21 PM PDT by MoscowMike
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To: *bang_list; harpseal; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; archy; Joe Brower
Glock Ping.
4 posted on 07/31/2002 3:01:37 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: dd5339
I couldn't read the entire post but the end result is scary. If you're a cop and your gun jams while using it then you, my friend, have screwed the pooch. No shi*!
5 posted on 07/31/2002 3:02:01 PM PDT by thegreatbeast
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To: 45Auto
M1911 A1 .45 ACP. Any questions?
6 posted on 07/31/2002 3:04:51 PM PDT by M. T. Cicero II
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To: newwahoo
Paging newwahoo! Paging newwahoo!

If you did get a Glock, look out for this one.

Otherwise, enjoy your Sig &;-)

7 posted on 07/31/2002 3:06:59 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: thegreatbeast
If you're a cop and your gun jams while using it then you, my friend, have screwed the pooch. No shi*!

New York Reload = Drop it and grab the backup.

What! You don't carry a backup!!!

Boonie Rat

MACV SOCOM, PhuBai/Hue '65-'66

9 posted on 07/31/2002 3:08:11 PM PDT by Boonie Rat
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To: 45Auto
The answer is simple: SIG.
10 posted on 07/31/2002 3:12:35 PM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: dd5339
Ping too
11 posted on 07/31/2002 3:13:09 PM PDT by Vic3O3
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To: M. T. Cicero II
M1911 A1 .45 ACP. Any questions?

Amen.

12 posted on 07/31/2002 3:13:25 PM PDT by PackerBoy
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To: 45Auto
..a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it.

May have to stay away from used Glocks for a while.

13 posted on 07/31/2002 3:25:09 PM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: Eaker
Bump.
14 posted on 07/31/2002 3:27:44 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: M. T. Cicero II
From your keyboard to Gods ear....

L

15 posted on 07/31/2002 3:31:11 PM PDT by Lurker
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To: 45Auto
I hope Glock figures this problem out. Not that I have a like or dislike for the Glock pattern, all those I have owned shot extremely well and I wind up selling them. I am a 1911 pattern shooter. Properly setup this pattern will provide reliable service over a LONG extensive life. The better quality produced 1911's shoot extremely well out of the box with good triggers and accuracy.

Glocks are accurate and for the most part reliable, the anti-Glock fans are probably dancing knowing that the "ultimate design for the 21st Century" is having problems.

Problems like this sooner or later involve the government in "consumer protection".

That's bad news for all gun-owners.

16 posted on 07/31/2002 3:34:00 PM PDT by Pistolshot
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To: M. T. Cicero II
"M1911 A1 .45 ACP. Any questions?

My military issue 1911 A1 is the most ammo sensitive hand gun that I own. The Glock problem mentioned in the post sounds like an ammo problem to me.

17 posted on 07/31/2002 3:47:35 PM PDT by bruoz
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To: 45Auto; Grampa Dave; kristinn; tgslTakoma; staytrue; Angelwood; Gore_ War_ Vet; ...
Ping ya all...especially NYCcop
18 posted on 07/31/2002 3:48:29 PM PDT by KLT
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To: Pistolshot
I have no doubt that Glock will successfully address both the "Phase Three" malfunction and the more serious "out-of-battery" firing of the model 20-somethings. I hope they do so before the "regulating authorities", i.e., the simpletons in elected public office, feel they just have to pass more stupid consumer protection/anti-second amendment laws.

My favorite semiauto is the Model of 1911 in caliber .45 ACP. Its no accident that gun has been in the hands of millions of Americans for nearly a hundred years. Its design is nothing short of genius.

19 posted on 07/31/2002 3:52:38 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: KLT; glock rocks
KLT thanks for the ping.

Glock Rocks, it is time to defend your name here!
20 posted on 07/31/2002 3:53:49 PM PDT by Grampa Dave
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To: 45Auto
My favorite semiauto is the Model of 1911 in caliber .45 ACP. Its no accident that gun has been in the hands of millions of Americans for nearly a hundred years. Its design is nothing short of genius.

John Moses Browning WAS a genius. I have a Gold Cup that has gone through about 300,000 rounds, most of that while competing in IPSC for 7 years. In that time I have replaced 3 parts, 2 extractors and a mainspring.

Lately, I have had some "failure to feed" problems, the problem is the feed ramp has worn down and the timing is off. My solution will be to machine out the ramp area and replace it with a ramped barrel. It should last another few 100,000 rounds don't you think?

21 posted on 07/31/2002 4:03:38 PM PDT by Pistolshot
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To: 45Auto
(Glock Problems)

A redundancy if there ever was one.

22 posted on 07/31/2002 4:05:26 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: KLT
Heckler and Koch a far superior weapon.
23 posted on 07/31/2002 4:45:38 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: 45Auto
bump
24 posted on 07/31/2002 4:47:15 PM PDT by VOA
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To: MoscowMike
"I doan like em never will."

Yeah, me too. My objection has to do with ergonomics. It just does not "feel right" in my hand; too blocky and square. Also I hate the silly trigger with the silly lever.

Many friends tell me Glocks are fine weapons. Just not for me.

--Boris

25 posted on 07/31/2002 4:52:46 PM PDT by boris
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To: Libertarianize the GOP
"Heckler and Koch a far superior weapon."

Yeah, and Sig.

26 posted on 07/31/2002 4:53:39 PM PDT by boris
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To: 45Auto
"There's a lot of information and also a lot of personal opinion in this site. The poster does not necessarily agree or disagree with
the opinions expressed in this article."


Right, I can see by your screen-name that they're your favorite!
27 posted on 07/31/2002 4:53:59 PM PDT by gc4nra
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To: Travis McGee
Glock 19 has been out since 1996? I thought the 19 was their first "compact," and I also thought PD was using full size. (Thought PD was using the 17).
28 posted on 07/31/2002 5:00:44 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Yehuda; Cap'n Crunch
I dunno.
29 posted on 07/31/2002 5:15:14 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: humblegunner
I had a Glock 22 and currently own A Glock 27. The only problem that I have ever experienced was a failure to feed caused by weak, single hand shooting.

Glock will figure the problem with the 19 out.

PS: My 27 is accurate enough to shoot a decent pattern at 100 yards.

Artillery brings dignity to an otherwise vulgar brawl.

30 posted on 07/31/2002 5:17:08 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: Eaker
PS: My 27 is accurate enough to shoot a decent pattern at 100 yards.

So I have seen.


31 posted on 07/31/2002 5:53:35 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: Travis McGee
Interesting. I actually have a G19 that was bought used from the NYPD in mid-1998. Came with two hi-cap, er, regular-cap mags for $350. It has the extra-heavy trigger pull that the NYPD likes, which I find to be quite manageable. Dirtier than a dirt road when I got it. I scrubbed it thoroughly and ran over 1K rounds of about five different ammo types through it (Nato hardballl, 115gr & 124gr Federal, Cor-Bon and Rem. Golden Sabres) with zero malfunctions, and a fair bit of that shooting was rapid-fire self-defense regimen, shoot on the move, etc. I cleaned it after that, and have since run about another 2K through it with no problems.

Individual mileage, I suppose, will vary.


32 posted on 07/31/2002 6:02:26 PM PDT by Joe Brower
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To: Eaker
I had a Glock 22 and currently own A Glock 27. The only problem that I have ever experienced was a failure to feed caused by weak, single hand shooting.

Also have a 27 with a finger extension. Love it. It is the only handgun I own that has never jammed.

PS: My 27 is accurate enough to shoot a decent pattern at 100 yards.

Still working on that trick .

33 posted on 07/31/2002 6:17:50 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: CWRWinger
..a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it.

May have to stay away from used Glocks for a while.

Note that after the Israeli *Shin Bet* [General Security Service* began using the Glock 17 and 19 on a regular basis, the Israeli special unit YA'MAM began using them as well, primarily the Model 17, which they now issue to each of their antiterror unit operatives.

The Israelis have also reported difficulties with the Model 19 with its shorter and lighter slide when firing 9mm ball ammunition, though that may not be the cause of the problem at all- and their few thousand Glock pistols in service are likely not as statistically significant as the NYPD issue. Nevertheless, it's interesting to note the Israel preference for the longer pistol, and something less than an overwhelming landslide of demand for the Glock pistols in general there.

I've owned about a dozen Glock handguns over the last decade, now down to a Glock 17 9mm and a Glock 30 .45. I've experienced minimal problems with either, but prefer others for serious uses.

-archy-/-

34 posted on 07/31/2002 6:56:01 PM PDT by archy
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To: Grampa Dave; archy; Sir Gawain; Pete-R-Bilt
I've owned about a dozen Glock handguns over the last decade, now down to a Glock 17 9mm and a Glock 30 .45. I've experienced minimal problems with either, but prefer others for serious uses. -archy-/-

yup. the G30 is the most reliable piece i've owned... for years, for thousands of rounds...
however, it will not teach you to recover quickly in the event of a jam like a 1911, kimber or wilson will...

i'm fond of the G26 when it comes to 9mm... it's my wife's piece... okay, she can carry the sp-101.

and, no, i carry a Sig P239. bigot? haw.

come on down to the next idpa utah state match, we'll trade war stories guys.

35 posted on 07/31/2002 7:20:54 PM PDT by glock rocks
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To: glock rocks
I have a G21 .45 ACP. It has proven itself reliable, but it doesn't seem to like Chinese ammo.
36 posted on 07/31/2002 7:26:22 PM PDT by R Sole
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To: AnAmericanMother
Thanks for the ping. I actually came across this article while doing some research on my duty weapon selection. I find it to be even more credible then I did when I first read it, and it squares with what I have heard from various officers that I have come into contact with.

Basically it seems that its hit or miss when it comes to whether or not you get a "good one". Most never phase 3 and some are prone to it. If you have a good 19 I wouldn't worry about it. Lots of guys (probably the majority of the department)are still carrying it and have total faith in their individual Glocks.

As for me, I'm very close to range qualifying with my Sig P226. I've met some guys that are very happy with theirs, especially once they got the K-Kote finish. It might be a little too big for concealed off-duty carry (one of the strong points of the Glock 19 from what I hear), but we'll see.

37 posted on 07/31/2002 7:36:11 PM PDT by newwahoo
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To: Travis McGee
It sounds like a QA issue that Glock has to correctly diagnose and resolve.My personal take on the Glock is that it is generally a good reliable sidearm that has pretty much proven itself. I do not personally carry one or own one but know many who swear by them. Good to know about though.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

38 posted on 08/01/2002 5:19:07 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: Travis McGee
Interesting article. I liked the Sig alot better.
39 posted on 08/01/2002 8:28:48 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: 45Auto
Sounds like an ammo problem to me.
40 posted on 08/01/2002 8:33:17 AM PDT by Rodney King
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To: archy
I bought a new Glock 17 when they first became legal in SC. I had no trouble with it cycling. However, it was not as repeatable and accurate as my Springfield 1911A1. I sold the Glock at a loss, disappointed in its performance.
41 posted on 08/01/2002 12:23:21 PM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: 45Auto
The 1911A bigots rapping Glocks crack me up.

A fair number of 1911A have passed through my families hands and they either shot for crap, or were 'accurized' and jammed frequently. My Dad currently keeps a Colt Commander in his nightstand.

I say this because this is the first time I've come down on the 1911A and its owners.

For over 60 some odd years after the intro of the 1911A, the first thing most owners did was turn them over to a gunsmith for accurizing.

In this very thread I've read about 1911 owners replacing extractors, worn feed ramps, etc.

A Glock is a fine, accurate, reliable weapon straight out of the tupperware.

The best part is, you get all of that for under $600.00

It doesn't need upgrades, bushings, exotic barrels, special beavertails, Wolf magazines or umpteen safety devices.

In the 1911A world plan on spending about $1200 and hardcore 1911 fans will tell you that is a starting point.

I like 1911A's, enjoy shooting them and respect and appreciate Brownings work, but I don't normally find it necesary to carp on the faults of 1911A's to feel good about my decision to buy a Glock.
42 posted on 08/01/2002 1:04:21 PM PDT by TC Rider
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To: TC Rider
I like 1911A's, enjoy shooting them and respect and appreciate Brownings work, but I don't normally find it necesary to carp on the faults of 1911A's to feel good about my decision to buy a Glock.

Me, too. I am very comfortable shooting both Glocks and various 1911's. Your comments have a lot of merit, especially the part about having to "tweak" the 1911 to make it more reliable (and more accurate). That said, there are now some very nice guns made by outfits like Kimber and Les Baer and others which are very shootable right out of the box. These guns are going to cost around a $1000 and the Glocks run about $600, as you said.

The big advantage of the 1911 to me relates to my being able to tinker with the gun, sometimes to such a degree that I end up building a totally new gun from a bag of parts.

The same cannot be said about the Glock, but then, perhaps it is not necessary (nor desirable) to tinker with the Glock. Being a gun enthusiast and hobbyist, I sometimes lose sight of the much more serious purpose for which these machines were invented: to be used (as Ayoob says) "in the gravest extremes" as a back-up battle gun or for immediate and deadly self defense. In the latter, there is no second place winner, so only one consideration becomes of utmost importance: reliability.

That's why I post these things, not to bash or unduly praise any one type or make or model of gun, but to open a discussion of ways to make sure that the guns we choose for self-protection and the protection of loved ones are up to the task and will work as advertised every time.

43 posted on 08/01/2002 2:47:07 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: 45Auto

hurry! change to beretta while you can.
lapd and lasd have an oustanding record with beretta pistols
44 posted on 08/01/2002 3:06:31 PM PDT by green team 1999
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To: 45Auto
Thanks for your reasoned reply to my rant.

My post was not meant to be directed specifically to you.

I think we agree on most points.
45 posted on 08/01/2002 3:44:26 PM PDT by TC Rider
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To: KLT; hellinahandcart
I subscribe to Soldier of Fortune and they only have beautiful things about the Glock!!

Especially for you KLT... the new G33 Sub-Compact in .357!!

I was quenching that night with the funny story and now I can't remember which one I meant... if I remember I'll pass it along!!

There is always the chance it wouldn't be funny without benefit of alcohol... sorry!!

46 posted on 08/01/2002 10:58:41 PM PDT by Nitro
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To: Nitro
love your stories Nitro....they are always fun and informative....gotta see that new G33 Sub-Compact...wow a .357...that's hot stuff!
47 posted on 08/02/2002 5:47:07 AM PDT by KLT
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To: newwahoo
Glad you like it! My husband has the big brother of the P226, the P220 in .45 ACP, and I carry the P245, the compact version.

Size shouldn't be a problem for off-duty carry unless you're very small and skinny. I carried a 1911A1 for years in a shoulder holster, and all I needed was a light jacket or suit coat. I carry the P245 in an inside-the-waistband holster that looks like a pager ('scuse me while I take this call) and don't even need a coat.

48 posted on 08/02/2002 6:12:54 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother
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To: 45Auto
I love my Glock model 22! Shoots great, no manual safeties to worry about, and best of all, it is diswasher-safe!
49 posted on 08/02/2002 6:18:43 AM PDT by StockAyatollah
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To: 45Auto
You get what you pay for!!!
50 posted on 08/02/2002 6:35:26 AM PDT by Colonel Jim
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