Palestinians Cheer Carnage

Wall St Journal ^ | August 6, 2002 | MICHAEL B. OREN

[SJackson]

JERUSALEM -- In Gaza last week, crowds of children reveled and sang while adults showered them with candies. The cause for celebration: the cold-blooded murder of at least seven people -- five of them Americans -- and the maiming of 80 more by a terrorist bomb on the campus of Jerusalem's Hebrew University. The joyful response of so many to the death, suffering, and mutilation of students and university workers raises pointed questions about the health of Palestinian society, both mental and moral. It makes many Israelis ask whether, even if a cease-fire is reached and negotiations someday resume, peace with the Palestinians is possible.

[medved]

At this point in time there is only one remaining halfway rational solution to the palestinian problem and somebody better figure it out pretty quick. The arab states are going to have to be forced to find a place to put the palis. somewhere in the vast expanse of islamic territory, 500 miles or more away from Israel. There is no way in which the Israelis could any longer be asked to accept these people as neighbors.

[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

Isn't it true that Israel defines itself as 'the Jewish State'? The idea of the 'Jewish State' is a lot more radical than, let's say, calling the U.S. a 'Christian nation'. It's more like having the U.S. define itself as an 'Aryan nation'. There would still be 'minorities' in the U.S., of course. They could even be U.S. citizens, the same way Israel allows a number of Arabs to remain Israeli citizens for as long as the Arabas remain a minority but there would be very strict immigration controls and some board would decide which candidate immigrant was truly white and therefore qualifying for admission in the U.S. I believe Israel has such a mechanism to determine whether someone is a true Jew and therefore entitled to enter the country.

Very, very interesting.

[goldstategop]

Michael Oren is an Israeli Leftist who is still cottoned to Oslo despite the PLO barbarism. What stands out however is his recognition the Palestinians are worse in their behavior towards the Jews than the German Nazis ever were and even he has the prescience to acknowledge the chance of peace with the Palestinians under current circumstances are slim to none. Which means that despite his support for Israel's territorial dismemberment through the misnamed "land for peace" formula, the chances Israel will ever withdraw to the pre 1967 borders continue to dwindle down to nothingness with the passage of time.

[American in Israel]

Beyond the controversy over settlements and territory, beyond the bitter conflict over Jerusalem, there is something else at work in the delight displayed by Palestinians over slaughter -- something sick and perhaps even evil.
Evil? Ya think? No kidding? A whole nation that practices a child sacrifice to allah and dances in the streets celebrating the slaughter of innocents might be, like, Evil?

Everybody, take note, a miracle is happening, a leftist is getting a glimmer of a clue...

Israel is a secular nation. As in, a free nation that does not inforce child sacrifice or religion on its slaves. The Palestinians want a terrorist nation, where suicide is taught in the schools, and murder is celebrated. Is that somehow better than a Jewish, or German or American Nation to you? Nationhood does not seem to be the problem, perhaps the trigger word was "Jewish"? You got a problem with Jewish?

[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

I didn't compare the Israel nation to the American nation. I am exploring the implication of applying the rules Israel is using to admit new immigrants to our own U.S. immigration. I believe a 'true Jew' who is entitled to come to Israel must prove that his mother (not father, probably because you never know who the true father was) was as Jew. I am trying to imagine how such a rule would be applied if the U.S. proclaims herself an Aryan state - nothing to fear, blacks and Jews would continue to be U.S. citizens, we just don't want any more of them settling in from abroad. Israel's example may very well inspire such experiments elsewhere.

[Kenton]

At this point in time there is only one remaining halfway rational solution to the palestinian problem and somebody better figure it out pretty quick. The arab states are going to have to be forced to find a place to put the palis. somewhere in the vast expanse of islamic territory, 500 miles or more away from Israel. There is no way in which the Israelis could any longer be asked to accept these people as neighbors.

Absolutely 100% right on the money. As the article points out, the Palestinians' own public behavior has shown them to be, as a group, a people unable to understand the concept of humanity. After seeing the obscene spectacles put on by them in the aftermath of these atrocities the only solution seems to be something the Israelis are understandably uncomfortable with, some form of "ethnic cleansing". These are quite simply, two groups of people who cannot reconcile their differences and live together.

I think the time may come when the Israelis get over their squeamishness and remove the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. The problem is, none of their fellow Arabs want them either.

[American in Israel]

I believe a 'true Jew' who is entitled to come to Israel must prove that his mother (not father, probably because you never know who the true father was) was as Jew.

Wow! What a totally bigoted thing to say! I am shocked! Perhaps it might be that the linage of the family is matriarchal just like my own lineage. As a Cherokee, my blood lines are determined by the mothers lines not the fathers. That is the way most of the world does it bright boy. It is after all only the English who do not even know their own mothers! Little bastards are just thrown out on the streets as babies to rot no doubt. (/s)

You make up all this crap that you say the Jews do that has no basis in reality. You are a sick puppy dude. In case you are interested, I live here. As in CONCEPT DUDE! I could be an Israeli if I wanted, like any American could if I was willing to surrender my passport as an American!

Before you go off on some strange slanderous tangent over that, it is exactly the way America does it. Just go fantasize about an Aryan State of America on your own, and please quit putting your Jew bashing Aryan fantasies on the Jews. You know, stick to reality?!

[Maceman]

I believe a 'true Jew' who is entitled to come to Israel must prove that his mother (not father, probably because you never know who the true father was) was as Jew.

Wow! What a totally bigoted thing to say!

It is not a bigoted thing to say. I was raised in the Reform Jewish tradition, and I can remember being taught in my religious classes (when I was 12-13) that this is, in fact, the reason why Jewish lineage passes through the mother.

It is typical pragmatic Jewish common sense to recognize that one can never be 100% sure about paternity in 100% of the cases. It is not a suggestion that Jewish women are adulterous. It is simply a long standing tradition that creates a fool-proof way of determining whether a child is Jewish by blood.

BTW, for what it's worth, I am no longer a practicing Jew.

[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

Please explain the following, given the "law or return" as shown below. Or was it 'bigoted' for me to post what follows?

An immigrant is a person who came to Israel and received the status of "immigrant" from the Ministry of Interior, according to the Law of Return - 1950. The Law of Return states that every Jew, his/her spouse, his children and grandchildren and their spouses are entitled to immigrate to Israel (except for several irregular cases that are mentioned in the Law.)

From the 'Lectric Law Library's stacks
Israel's Law Of Return Giving Every Jew The Right To Automatically Acquire Citizenship

LAW OF RETURN, 5710-1950

1. Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh**.

2. (a) Aliyah** shall be by oleh's visa.

 (b) An oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his
desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Immigration is
satisfied that the applicant

  (1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or

  (2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

3. (a) A Jew who has come to Israel and subsequent to his arrival has
expressed his desire to settle in Israel may, while still in Israel,
receive an oleh's certificate.

 (b) The restrictions specified in section 2(b) shall apply also to the
grant of an oleh's certificate, but a person shall not be regarded as
endangering public health on account of an illness contracted after his
arrival in Israel.

4. Every Jew who has immigrated into this country before the coming into
force of this Law, and every Jew who was born in this country, whether
before or after the coming into force of this Law, shall be deemed to be
a person who has come to this country as an oleh under this Law.

5. The Minister of Immigration is charged with the implementation of
this Law and may make regulations as to any matter relating to such
implementation and also as to the grant of oleh's visas and oleh's
certificates to minors up to the age of 18 years.

DAVID BEN-GURION - Prime Minister
MOSHE SHAPIRA - Minister of Immigration
YOSEF SPRINZAK - Acting President of the State / Chairman of the Knesset

* Passed by the Knesset July 5th, 1950
** Aliyah means immigration of Jews, and oleh (plural: olim) means a Jew
immigrating, into Israel.
-----

LAW OF RETURN (AMENDMENT 5714-1954)*

1. In section 2 (b) of the Law of Return, 5710-1950** -

 (1) the full stop at the end of paragraph (2) shall be replaced by a
semi-colon, and the word "or" shall be inserted thereafter ;

 (2) the following paragraph shall be inserted after paragraph (2):

"(3) is a person with a criminal past, likely to endanger public
welfare.".

2. In sections 2 and 5 of the Law, the words "the Minister of
Immigration" shall be replaced by the words "the Minister of the
Interior".

MOSHE SHARETT Prime Minister
YOSEF SERLIN Minister of Health Acting Minister of the Interior
YITZCHAK BEN-ZVI President of the State

* Passed by the Knesset on August 23rd, 1954
-----

 LAW OF RETURN (AMENDMENT NO. 2), 5730-1970*

1. In the Law of Return, 5710-1950**, the following sections shall be
inserted after section 4:

 4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh
under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an
oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a
grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew
and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has
been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

 (b) It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose right a right
under subsection (a) is claimed is still alive and whether or not he has
immigrated to Israel.

 (c) The restrictions and conditions prescribed in respect of a Jew or
an oleh by or under this Law or by the enactments referred to in
subsection (a) shall also apply to a person who claims a right under
subsection (a).

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a
Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member
of another religion.

2. In section 5 of the Law of Return, 5710-1950, the following shall be
added at the end: "Regulations for the purposes of sections 4A and 4B
require the approval of the Constitution, Legislation and Juridical
Committee of the Knesset.".

3. In the Population Registry Law, 5725-1965, the following section
shall be inserted after section 3:5725-1965.

3A. (a) A person shall not be registered as a Jew by ethnic affiliation
or religion if a notification under this Law or another entry in the
Registry or a public document indicates that he is not a Jew, so long as
the said notification, entry or document has not been controverted to
the satisfaction of the Chief Registration Officer or so long as
declaratory judgment of a competent court or tribunal has not otherwise
determined.

 (b) For the purposes of this Law and of any registration or document
thereunder, "Jew" has the same meaning as in section 4B of the Law of
Return, 5710-1950.

 (c) This section shall not derogate from a registration effected before
its coming into force.".

GOLDA MEIR Prime Minister / Acting Minister of the Interior
SHNEUR ZALMAN SHAZAR President of the State

* Passed by the Knesset March 10th, 1970

-----
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[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

Regarding post #8, I forgot to ask: why would what would normally appear as reasonable people suddently change into incoherent, irrational, truth-ignoring, furious entities when confronted with certain truths?

[Tuscaloosa Goldfinch]

"For all its anomalies, Israel is at base a healthy society. The reaction of Israelis to civilian casualties, even among their mortal enemies, is similar to that shown by Americans after the accidental bombing of villagers in Afghanistan. But the Palestinians are different."

And that is the problem. It is impossible to understand these people beyond recognizing that their thinking is twisted beyond all normal reason. We could not understand them unless we ourselves were of a mind to strap bombs to our precious children and sent then out to murder and die. We don't think that way.

No negotiation is possible with them, because people who murder their own children think nothing of lying for political advantage. Nothing they say can ever be believed.

[Ancesthntr]

For all its anomalies, Israel is at base a healthy society. The reaction of Israelis to civilian casualties, even among their mortal enemies, is similar to that shown by Americans after the accidental bombing of villagers in Afghanistan. But the Palestinians are different. Though Palestinian spokesmen often seek to justify terror in terms of popular frustration and despair, there is no rational explanation for the outbursts of joy bordering on ecstasy at the dismemberment of innocent children, women, and men. Beyond the controversy over settlements and territory, beyond the bitter conflict over Jerusalem, there is something else at work in the delight displayed by Palestinians over slaughter -- something sick and perhaps even evil.

For all the kudos discretely given SS killers by the regime, Nazi Germany never publicly lionized them, never plastered their pictures on the streets, or openly encouraged children to emulate them. That kind of adoration for mass murderers can only be found, in abundance, among the Palestinians.

They really are sick & evil. Does anyone think that we will see a simply demonstration of this fact, utilizing the facts above, on ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC or NBC? How about in the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post, Time, Newsweek, etc.? And since the answer is obviously "no," what does this say about the morality of those press & media outlets? I'm glad that I no longer watch or subscribe to any of them. They are actually worse than the Pallies because, having been raised in this country, the editors & reporters should have the modicum of morality necessary to point out ALL of the facts, not just those that selectively make Israel look bad.

[Ancesthntr]

Isn't it true that Israel defines itself as 'the Jewish State'? The idea of the 'Jewish State' is a lot more radical than, let's say, calling the U.S. a 'Christian nation'. It's more like having the U.S. define itself as an 'Aryan nation'.

Hey, Vast, it seems that you missed something in elementary school. "Jewish" and "Christian" refer to 2 of the world's major religions. "Aryan" refers to a racial subgroup of the Caucasian race, a subgroup whose existence is rather dubious. A "Jewish State" would be directly comparable to a "Christian nation," NOT an "Aryan nation."

And why is a "Jewish State" more radical in concept than a "Christian nation?" To me, these concepts are identical in nature.

You seem to have issues with things "Jewish." In the absence of any information to the contrary, I can only assume that those issues spring from some dark place in your heart.

[Ancesthntr]

Re: post # 13 - "simply" should be "simple."

[Aquinasfan]

For all the kudos discretely given SS killers by the regime, Nazi Germany never publicly lionized them, never plastered their pictures on the streets, or openly encouraged children to emulate them. That kind of adoration for mass murderers can only be found, in abundance, among the Palestinians.

Islam means "submission" and should not be mistaken for Christianity.

[Aquinasfan]

For all the kudos discretely given SS killers by the regime, Nazi Germany never publicly lionized them, never plastered their pictures on the streets, or openly encouraged children to emulate them. That kind of adoration for mass murderers can only be found, in abundance, among the Palestinians.

Islam means "submission" and should not be mistaken for Christianity. May those who equate Islam and Christianity or Islam and Judaism be surrounded with a thousand Mohammedan neighbors.

[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

Hey, Vast, it seems that you missed something in elementary school. "Jewish" and "Christian" refer to 2 of the world's major religions. "Aryan" refers to a racial subgroup of the Caucasian race, a subgroup whose existence is rather dubious. A "Jewish State" would be directly comparable to a "Christian nation," NOT an "Aryan nation."

No, I didn't. My comparison was quite apt. If you examine the 'Law of Return' that I posted, a Jew is someone who's mother was a Jew. Conversions are anything from very difficult to nearly-impossible. The basis for Jewishness is largely genetic - same as that of 'Arian-ness'.

[JMJ333]

It does mean submission, but not in the sense most think--not that I am a fan of Islam, but I thought you might find the correct interpretation interesting. Here is a good explanation from Gabriel Oussani:

"Grammatically, the word Islam is the infinitive of the so-called fourth verbal form of the regular intransitive stem salima, "to be safe", "to be secure", etc. In its second verbal form (sallama) it means "to make some one safe" and "to free", "to make secure", etc. In its third form (salama), it signifies "to make peace", or "to become at peace", i.e. to be reconciled". In its fourth form (aslama), the infinitive of which is islam, it acquires the sense of "to resign", "to submit oneself" or "to surrender". Hence Islam, in its ethico-religious significance, means the "entire surrender of the will to God", and its professors are called Muslimun (sing. Muslim), which is the participial form, that is "those who have surrendered themselves", or "believers", as opposed to the "rejectors" of the Divine message, who are called Kafirs, Mushriks (that is those who associate various gods with the Deity), or pagans."

[crystalk]

But your analogy is still no good, the comparison to Aryan is totally bogus. Jews may be of any race or color, and therefore persons whose mothers were Jews are of any race or color-- though of course about 85% are white, 10% "brown caucasians," and perhaps 5% black or dark.