US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam

The Indian Express ^ | 12/9/02 | Dana Milbank

[1bigdictator]

US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Islam

Dana Milbank

Washington, December 8 PRESIDENT Bush finds himself in a rare disagreement with Conservatives in his party over his efforts to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that is not responsible for anti-American terrorism. In a score of speeches since the September 11, 2001, attacks, Bush has called for tolerance of Muslims, describing Islam as ‘‘a faith based upon peace and love and compassion’’ and a religion committed to ‘‘morality and learning and tolerance.’’

But a large number of foreign policy hawks — some of them with advisory roles in the Bush administration — have joined religious conservatives in taking issue with Bush’s characterisations. While most of them understand the political rationale for Bush’s statements — there’s no benefit in antagonising Muslim allies such as Pakistan and Indonesia — they say the claim is dishonest and destined to fail. For Bush and for the country, the outcome of the argument is crucial.

The administration, and moderate governments in Arab and Muslim nations, are struggling to prevent the war on terrorism from becoming what Osama bin Laden wants: a war of civilisation between the Judeo-Christian West and a resentful and impoverished Muslim world. Calling Islam a peaceful religion ‘‘is an increasingly hard argument to make,’’ said Kenneth Adelman, a former Reagan official who serves on the Bush Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board.

‘‘The more you examine the religion, the more militaristic it seems. After all, its founder, Mohammed, was a warrior, not a peace advocate like Jesus.’’ Another member of the Pentagon advisory board, Eliot Cohen of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, wrote an article on the Wall Street Journal editorial page arguing that the enemy of the US is not terrorism ‘‘but militant Islam.’’ ‘‘The enemy has an ideology, and an hour spent surfing the Web will give the average citizen at least the kind of insights that he or she might have found during World Wars I and II by reading Mein Kampf or the writings of Lenin, Stalin or Mao.’’

Cohen acknowledges it is impolitic and ‘‘deeply uncomfortable’’ for the administration to say such things. ‘‘Nobody would like to think that a major world religion has a deeply aggressive and dangerous strain in it — a strain often excused or misrepresented in the name of good feelings. But uttering uncomfortable and unpleasant truths is one of the things that defines leadership,’’ he said.

At the same time, social conservatives are resisting Bush’s efforts to portray Islam in a favorable light. ‘‘Islam is at war against us,’’ Paul Weyrich, an activist who is influential in the White House, wrote recently.

‘‘I have had much good to say about President Bush in recent months. But one thing that concerned me before September 11 and concerns me even more now is his administration’s constant promotion of Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance just like Judaism or Christianity. It is neither.’’ — LATWP

[2banana]

Ask why these Islamic countries are full of peace and tolerance:


Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal.

Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship

Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam

Egypt -Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship

Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution.

Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.

(All information is from US State Department Human Rights Reports)

I could go on with more examples.

[republicanwizard]

I think Bush is correct. Islam is a religion of peace, provided you have any amount of reason.

One can take a fairy tales and turn them into an ideology of destruction and terror. Demeaning Mohammed or his followers for September 11, 2001, is stupid foolishness and the work of those driven by hate themselves.

All religions have been known to commit excess in God's name. However, that does not mean that the religion, its founders, or God is to blame.

[ex-Texan]

Militant Islam is the enemy of America and all Americans be they here at home or abroad. In my own view, Islam is a cult preaching death and a reward in heaven for those who murder non-Muslims. Fanatical Islamics drew the 'first blood' by turning airliners into terrorist weapons of mass destruction. All across the world, Isamics are not preaching peace, or religious tolerance or non-violence. They only preach hatred, murder, revenge, and destruction to all who are not Muslim.

I have not heard Muslims renouncing violence and terrorism. Instead, they were dancing in the street celebrating 911. Is there a single voice shouting, 'Peace, peace?!' or 'Pray for Tolerance?!' If so, I have not herd one; not even a single voice. The Islamics are condemned by their own silence.

[Mamzelle]

Bush mouths certain platitudes, but does he really believe them, or is this diplomacy? Right now, it looks as if the Arabian Sauds are going to let us use a base. "War is deception," Mohammed said. Maybe Bush is taking that advice.

[trebb]

The President is taking the right tack - he will not slam a religion because of how many of its followers decide to interpret it. He will take the "personal accountability" route every time, because that's the one that makes sense...

[Stand Watch Listen]

Related Articles:

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The Seamless Garment Of Hate: The Beltway Sniper Shootings And Islam/Nation of Islam
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[2banana]

I wonder if you would make the same argument in 1941 with the Nazis or Imperial Japan...

[joesnuffy]

I think Bush is correct. Islam is a religion of peace, provided you have any amount of reason.

Lobotomy

[republicanwizard]

Lobotomy?

Don't tell me you are one of those who listens to the Pat Buchanan crowd...

For his time, Mohammed was a rather peaceful man, and he was warred against more than the warrior.

[John O]

Demeaning Mohammed or his followers for September 11, 2001, is stupid foolishness and the work of those driven by hate themselves.

If I direct people in my employ to go commit murder I am responsible for that murder. If I direct people who are strongly under my influence to go and commit murder then I am responsible for that murder.

mohammed commands his followers to murder innocent people. He is responsible for those murders.

By its own holy book mohammedism is exposed as a cult and an inherently evil organization.

Islam is the enemy

God (Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus) Save America (Please)

[TLBSHOW]

Paul Weyrich, an activist who is influential in the White House, wrote recently.

‘‘I have had much good to say about President Bush in recent months. But one thing that concerned me before September 11 and concerns me even more now is his administration’s constant promotion of Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance just like Judaism or Christianity. It is neither.’’

,,,,,,,,
Islam is a cult of death.

[Consort]

If Conservatives want or expect Bush to bash a religion, then they are dumber than Democrats.

[TLBSHOW]

MURDER BY ISLAM THE CULT OF DEATH


In a little-noticed story almost exactly one year after Muslims staged the most horrific terrorist attack the world has ever seen, a Muslim en route from Germany to Kosovo emerged from the airplane bathroom and tried to strangle a stewardess with his shoelaces. (Not that there's anything unpeaceful about that.)

That story was squirreled away in a small box at the very bottom of Page A-9 of the Times. In the entire Lexis-Nexis archives, only three newspapers reported the incident. Not one mentioned that the attacker was a Muslim. It was a rather captivating story, too. Earlier in the flight, the Muslim responded to the stewardess' offer of refreshments by saying, "I'd like to drink your blood." (Not that there's anything unpeaceful about that.)

Also last week, another practitioner of the Religion of Peace, this one with ties to al-Qaida, tried to board a plane in Switzerland with a gun. This story did not merit front-page coverage at the New York Times.

On July 4 this year, an Egyptian living in California – who had complained about his neighbors flying a U.S. flag, had a "Read the Koran" sticker on his front door, and expressed virulent hatred for Jews – walked into an El Al terminal at the Los Angeles airport and started shooting Jews. (Not that there's anything unpeaceful about that.)

The Times casually reported the possibility that his motive was a fare dispute. Four days after the shooting, the story vanished amid an embarrassed recognition of the fact that any Muslim could snap at any moment and start shooting.


snip;

Citing passages from the Hadith, the collected sayings of Muhammad, the Caners note that, by his own account, the founder of Islam was often possessed by Satan. The phrase "Satanic Verses" refers to words that Muhammad first claimed had come from God, but which he later concluded were spoken by Satan.

Muhammad married 11 women, kept two others as concubines and recommended wife-beating (but only as a last resort!). His third wife was 6 years old when he married her and 9 when he consummated the marriage.

To say that Muhammad was a demon-possessed pedophile is not an attack. It's a fact. (And for the record, Timothy McVeigh is not the founder of Christianity. He wasn't even a Christian. He was an atheist who happened to be a gentile.)

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20020906.shtml

[1bigdictator]

The logic of parceling out blame through some false distinction between Islamists and the religion of the Koran, or at least how militants interpret it, is an exercise in futility.

The raging Clerics espousing Wahabi branded hatred against the West and modernity disprove your argument of cultural relativity... by their own admission, if you are willing to listen, their's is a self-described religion of death and destruction toward non-observers.

[republicanwizard]

The Old Testament is a really pacific book. If I were to follow it literally, then I would run around killing everyone.

I don't since I have common sense.

[1bigdictator]

Thanx for the list... bookmarking to read later.

[Sender]

As much as I would like to agree with you that all religions are peaceful and only subject to occasional human foolishness, I cannot.

[Abar]

Mohammed was a rather peaceful man

muhammad was a paedophile, in his fifties he married a 6 year old girl and defiled her at age 9.

That was one of his better points as he's also the founder of an insane satanic murdeous cult, islam.

islam is death, and will have to be eradicated.

[republicanwizard]

Sure. Whatever you say.

Make up the facts as you go along. Typical of your type.

Why don't you leave FreeRepublic and go to a site more conducive to fiction.

[JustAnAmerican]

"Sure. Whatever you say.

Make up the facts as you go along. Typical of your type.

Why don't you leave FreeRepublic and go to a site more conducive to fiction.

Typical of his/her type? Seems you are the one professing your love for Islam. I dare say there is plenty of proof to back up those claims. Never fails how you "Islam is Peace" types always want to sidestep the issues with falsehoods, but then that's what Islam is all about.

Any religion that follows a Pedophile, that considers young boys chattel, and preaches death to all non-Muslims is evil in my book. And don't even try that "The Bible" also preaches "death to non-believers", last time I checked Christians followed Christ, thus the name Christian. You know, the one that died for our sins? Care to tell us who came after the Pedophile Mohammed?

[republicanwizard]

Go crawl in a bunker and man the guns.

You can create false stories about Muhammed, but they are not contained in the Koran. In this world, there are millions of Muslims, perhaps billions, and it is a very small proportion indeed that fly into towers.

Perhaps you are a religious zealot yourself, with a superiority complex that must be mixed with true personal inferiority. Hence, you must consider those who disagree with you inferior to posit your deep sense of personal insignificance. Not very different from Osama himself.

That's my last comment to you. Bye.

[virgil]

President Bush is not a theologian and I don't think he is expert enough on the matter to say that Islam is a religion of peace. Not expert enough to rebuke conservative Christians. I think there are passages in the Koran that call for the killing of non-muslims, especially the followers of Jesus Christ.

[republicanwizard]

I'm sure followers of Jesus Christ never twisted his words to kill those who disagreed with him.

I'll check with all those of the Jewish faith who died, or the countless Muslims or Indians. After all, it was the Spanish who said that because Indians were not aware of the Bible, they could not be human.

I'll bet that Northern Ireland is all about Muslim terrorists. Thanks for that news, my theologians.

Considering the relative youth of the religion, Islam is pretty advanced.

[Aquinasfan]

Nobody would like to think that a major world religion has a deeply aggressive and dangerous strain in it

Never underestimate the power of wishful thinking.

[JustAnAmerican]

That's my last comment to you. Bye.

Tsk, Tsk, I would expect that from someone who supports illegal immigrants and the "Islam is Peace" doctrine. So its proof you want huh? Even though plenty is to be had on the internet, please refute the following taken from a Muslims translation of the Koran.

Already, when Aisha (the daughter of Abu Bakr, Mohammad's closest friend and unquestioning ally) was about 4-5 years old Muhammad started dreaming of a union with her [Ref: SAHIH BUKHARI, 5:235]

When she was 6, Muhammad asked Abu Bakr, Aisha's father, for her hand. Abu Bakr thought it was improper, because, as he said "I am your brother"; Muhammad brushed aside Abu Bakr's reservation by saying that it was perfectly lawful for him to marry Aisha [ Ref: SAHIH BUKHAR I7:18].

So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e. when Aisha was 9, the marriage was consummated. And Muhammad was 53 then [SAHIH BUKHARI 5:236,7:64,7:65,7:88].

Aisha became Muhammad's favourite wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant [ SAHIH BUKHARI .1.270, 3:36, 7:6, 3:148, 3:149, 3:150, 7:142, IbnSa'd 1pg165 ]. Later, Aisha was to be called the "mother of believers".

Amazing what a little searching for truth will do huh?

[Fiddlstix]

Bump

[ConservativeConvert]

Islam IS a religion of Peace...PIECE OF SH*T

[Kay Soze]

US Conservatives dispute Bush’s portrayal of Conservatisism.

[artios]

Welcome to freerepublic. I noticed you recently joined.

The members here are conservative and logically thinking. When they look at EVERY mulsim government in ALL history and read the Koran itelf, there is a clear conclusion - Isalm is a religion of war, intolerance, hatred to "infidel" jews and christians, - they believe it is a positive ethic to lie to the infidel or do anything else - all to their end of a world government run by Islam - the "Islam is a religion of peace" is in his narrow sense true - they believe they will have world peace when all the infidels have been killed or converted.

On the other hand, the CHRISTIAN founders of America insituted LIBERTY and GOD GIVEN RIGHTS to ALL men as the basis for govt. "We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - You will not find that sentiment in ANY Muslim nation now, in history - or in the future.

Islam is a religion foounded by a terrorist pedophile and for hate filled intolerant totalitarian supporting slaves that think its ok to publically shoot a woman in the head for being accused of adultery. "Religion of peace... my ass."

And don't give me any "slavery slavery, whote men and slavery bs" - Our founders INSTITUTED Liberty as a basis for govt in the face of the WORLD practice of slavery. Our founders built the FIRST government insitution that laid out the logic and legal arguement against slavery.

[Kay Soze]

WOW slam dunk!

Perhaps some should hang at CAIR in stead of FreeRepublic.

[Stefan Stackhouse]

I have no doubt that there were plenty of Germans during the Nazi period who went about their lives being productive citizens of civil society -- scientists, engineers, physicians, etc. They may have been marginal and perfunctory in their loyalty to the Nazi leadership and doctrines. Thus, it would not have been fair to overgeneralize and blame every single German as being equally guilty for the evils commited by the Nazi regime.

Nevertheless, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the existance of numbers of relatively blameless Germans therefore absolves National Socialism as a movement of all guilt, to label it as an "ideology of peace" merely because a few people under its sway did not do bad things. No, we judged National Socialism by its fruits, and those fruits were horribly evil. That evil was not a random accident, but the inevitable and intentional consequence of its founding documents and leadership's direction. We correctly judged National Socialism as evil, an ideology of war and of crimes against humanity, because this is what it was all about, both in thought and in deed. And beacuse it was not just a matter of thought, but also of deed, the rest of the civilized world eventually had to fight it, first for our own defense and self-preservation, and then to defeat and abolish this scourge of humanity. We justified not just defeating National Socialism, but in undertaking a systematic "de-nazification" of Germany, because the evil thoughts inherently led to evil deeds, and the evil deeds could not be tolerated, ever again.

Whatever applies to National Socialism must apply to Islam many times over, for Islam's fruits are even more evil than National Socialism's. The evil fruits are not accidental, but derive inevitably as the result of faithful Muslims obeying the dictates of authoritative Islamic documents. Islam is a religion that condones and commands war, murder, rape, slavery, pilage, destruction, persecution, intolerance, and a host of other evils, directed against ALL of humanity that has not submitted to the Islamic ideology. Are there Muslims that do not do these things? Of course. There is no doubt that one can find many Muslims who go about their daily lives as peaceful and productive members of society, just as one could have found such Germans in Nazi Germany. But the existance of such in no way absolves Islam as a whole. When one weighs the evidence of Islamic history as a whole (a history which already far surpasses Hitler's dream of a mere "thousand-year Reich"), then one has no alternative but to conclude that this is a history of unprecedented and unequalled evil deeds. And one is forced to draw some conclusions regarding the source of the thoughts from which these deeds were motivated.

With all due respect to our President (for whom I have voted, support, and admire in all other aspects), I am forced to conclude that he is either ignorant or is being grossly mis-informed and badly served by his advisors. The fact is that Islam is not a "religion of peace", but rather is an ideology of war. Islam is not good, but evil. And Islam is an evil far worse than National Socialism, and far more dangerous both to the U.S. and all of humanity. Crimes against humanity routinely and repeatedly have been and are continuing to be committed by the followers of Islam and in the name of Islam, not because they are marginal and misguided lunatics, but because they are faithful followers of Islam, obeying the explicit commandments and principles of Islam. Just as there is a clear cause-and-effect relationshp between Mein Kampf and the death camps, there is just as clear of a cause-and-effect relationship between the Quran and the Hadiths on the one hand and fourteen centuries of war, murder, rape, slavery, pilage, destruction, and persecution of the "infidel kafir" at the hands of Muslims. And those of us who are not Muslims are fully justified in making a judgement even more severe against Islam than we have made against National Socialism.

[ApesForEvolution]

Bush doesn't have to 'slam' this false, murdering gutter religion, nother should he be embellishing the truth about it either and attacking those of his own that are speaking the truths and pointing out its graveness.

[ApesForEvolution]

nother = contraction for nor/neither. LOL!

[John O]

The Old Testament is a really pacific book. If I were to follow it literally, then I would run around killing everyone.

No, only those God told you specifically to kill (and He hasn't made such a pronoucement since the children of Israel came back to the promised land) or those who were provably guilty of certain crimes (which we should be doing anyway and remember that most of those crime sentences are modified by the NT also)

The Koran however does not make any allowance. It commands the muslim to kill any nonbeliever if that nonbeliever doesn't convert. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Islam is obviously an evil cult.

Islam is the enemy

GSA(P)
GSA(P)

[Rocky]

Great links. Keep up the good fight.

[Delbert]

Mohammed was a rather peaceful man<---Republican Wizard aka Achmed Abdulla Fullacrapolla. Man you been smoking to much camel dung. Peaceful my ass.

[Delbert]

republicanwizard signed up 2002-11-18. ISP link has been traced to a tent on the outskirts of Islamabad.

[Delbert]

Excellent response!

[Angelus Errare]

As much as I understand and appreciate what you're doing, I've somewhat resigned myself to the fact that the vast majority of Freepers seem to believe that bin Laden is correct in his reading of the Qur'an. Any reading of the book that doesn't automatically leave the believer with a desire to go out and kill the infidels is wrong, hopelessly Westernized (i.e. against the original intentions of Mohammed), or just plain dishonest. If bin Laden could only convince half of the planet's Muslim population to believe this with half of the fervor that many Freepers do, his jihad would be over and we'd all be living under the Islamic World Caliphate.

The belief that Islam is evil is unofficially promoted by many around here with all of the fanaticism as say ... the constitutionality of abortion at a Planned Parenthood meeting. Back when this was an at least plausible discussion on the nature of Islam, I had no problem with it, but now it's simply denigrated into the realm of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." There is something of a note of high irony to the point that we consider ourselves so much more educated than our counterparts in the Arab world yet we fall for a different version of the same big lie.

The type of electronic lynch mobs that stringently endeavor to enforce this type of pseudo-orthodoxy are no different in of their total lack of regard to an alternative point of view, as can regularly be seen whenever our Turk posters bother to speak up to defend their faith and are subjected to countless derisions about how they must renounce it and embrace Christianity or are else derided with the same trite crap that you just got a glimpse of in this thread.

Of course, these are the same people who keep on saying "moderate Islam doesn't apologize for its radical side" and then shout down and denounce as lying anyone who dares to do so. I would challenge any of these people to take their respective "findings" in regard to Islam to the local mosque. If what they say is true, shouldn't they desire to help any of their fellow Americans who may have been unknowingly suckered into this abominable religion? Or should all Muslims be dismissed as lost and then (one assumes) eradicated?

These are the two inevitable courses of action that come from the FR view of Islam. Either they should do everything in their power to inform all of these peaceful Muslims who are too dumb to get it through their heads that the Qur'an says that they should be praying for our deaths or they should begin plans to eradicate Islam by force worldwide, a plan that many here have voiced their support of. A plan worthy of their characterization of Mohammed, that.

Of course, most people logically seem to view both of these courses of action repellant, which may explain why they prefer to denounce Islam from the relative anonymity of this forum rather than to the faces of actual Muslims where their views might be confronted by individuals far more knowledgeable about the nature of Islam than a couple of people who skimmed some websites, cut-and-pasted from the Qur'an, and read the same religious propoganda (and it isn't just Islam that receives this treatment, since as a Catholic I am constantly pestered by folks who are so certain that I secretly worship Mary as a goddess) that works just fine until somebody comes along to refute them.

If people here were actually interested in finding out what Muslims actually believe about x, y, and z, they could simply post the verses and hadiths in question in respectable form on any one of dozens of English language Islamic forums and then post the results here.

That would give them a quick way to find out about what real Muslims actually believe about taqiyya, Fatima, jihad, suicide bombings, and any number of other topics. But somehow I sincerely doubt it will happen.

[Delbert]

Youre both blind. Rex your seeing eye dog is on the way via UPS.

[Angelus Errare]

So tell me then, up-front, since you know all the answers:

Are the Freepers Turk_2 or a_turk terrorist sympathizers because they are good Muslims?

I await your response.

[Delbert]

It doesnt matter if they are good or not, the guy that owns the convenience store by my house is from Pakistan and a good man, one of my good friends, ...and yes he is a Muslim. But that doesnt matter , because his country and several other Islamic states are controlled by THE BAD MUSLIMS, that want to put an end to western civilization and make the entire world submit to Islam. Problem is with your argument their Paco, is that there are not enough good Muslims to make a difference in the blanket of evil that Islam as a whole is trying to cover the world with. If they are so good and feel so strongly about their "Goodness" then they need to stand up collectively and denounce the BAD MUSLIMS and expel the vermin from their ranks.

[Angelus Errare]

Finally. We're getting somewhere.

"But that doesnt matter , because his country and several other Islamic states are controlled by THE BAD MUSLIMS, that want to put an end to western civilization and make the entire world submit to Islam. Problem is with your argument their Paco, is that there are not enough good Muslims to make a difference in the blanket of evil that Islam as a whole is trying to cover the world with."

I agree completely. However, I would point out that claiming that the bad Muslims are the only real/true/authentic Muslims out there is not exactly going to make us any friends in that part of the world. If anybody is actually curious as to why President Bush refers to Islam as a "religion of peace," that's why.

I fully agree as well that Islam hasn't been able to police its own house and that the kooks are now running the show in quite a few countries worldwide. If they can't keep their home in order, we'll do it for them. Although I would point out that the fact that the US has coddled and sucked up to the incubator of all Islamic terrorism (Saudi Arabia) as well as aided the terrorist KLA isn't exactly making things easier for the good Muslims out there.

"If they are so good and feel so strongly about their 'Goodness' then they need to stand up collectively and denounce the BAD MUSLIMS and expel the vermin from their ranks."

They are. The Algerians have been doing it for 10 years. Radical Islam is dead in Turkey. The members of the largest Muslim party in Indonesia has demanded that the government arrest and try Bashir and Co. rather than this kid glove treatment they're using. The Jordanians stormed right into Maan right after that American diplomat was killed and lost several of their soldiers because of it. The Kuwait has arrested scores of al-Qaeda sleepers (a move the FBI might try to emulate) after the recent drive-bys, including bin Laden's Kuwait operations chief, and in less than a month! Or look at Moscow, when the Grand Mufti of Chechnya told Barayev and his thugs to let the hostages go? Or the thousands of Iranian students who are now staging almost daily protests?

This hardly strikes me as the Clinton-esque crap we get from the unofficial Saudi organs like CAIR and AMC. You can tell the good Muslims from the bad by their works on our behalf, works that seem to indicate that not everybody's taking bin Laden's word on what the Qur'an says.

[Delbert]

Agreed on several issues .....Iran is ready to explode. Right now the religious police are only fighting with sticks, the students need to switch to bigger sticks...and then it will only escalate. I know Bush cant denounce Islam, regardless of his personal beliefs. So in my opinion he needs to leave religion out of it and hit these assholes wherever they are.
As far as Islam is concerned they can find out the truth for themselves when they die, as we all will.
I am a Christian...and if any other person who called themselves a Christian, especially anyone in power or authority...started telling everyone to submit to Jesus or die, and started trying to recruit my sons to blow themselves up for Jesus, I would rise up against them and oppose them at every oppurtunity. Where is that voice in the Muslim world? It is but a whisper.

[Stefan Stackhouse]

Of course, most people logically seem to view both of these courses of action repellant, which may explain why they prefer to denounce Islam from the relative anonymity of this forum rather than to the faces of actual Muslims where their views might be confronted by individuals far more knowledgeable about the nature of Islam than a couple of people who skimmed some websites, cut-and-pasted from the Qur'an, and read the same religious propoganda (and it isn't just Islam that receives this treatment, since as a Catholic I am constantly pestered by folks who are so certain that I secretly worship Mary as a goddess) that works just fine until somebody comes along to refute them.

Well, first of all, unlike you and most of the people on FR I post under my real name. I think about what I say before I post, and I stand by it to the extent that I have the guts to sign my real name to it. If that results in a Fatwah against me, so be it. My Lord is more powerful than anything them Muslims can throw against me, and if I must die I'd rather it be because I made a public stand for what I believed to be true and right rather than to cower in terror.

And that brings me to the main point: Jesus told us that we can and should evaluate people and things based upon their fruits -- the actual deeds and their character. Islam isn't something new, we have almost 14 centuries of history. It is a history that does not make for very pleasant reading. It is a history of almost unremitting war, murder, rape, pilage, slavery, destruction, persecution, a glorification and catering to the very worst of male sexual impulses, an "ends justifies means" approach to the employment of every evil deed in the book to advance the territorial reach of Islam, and the list of evil goes on and on.

Even Christianity, if broadly enough (although perhaps illegitimately) defined, has a history marred by those who have done bad things. But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam. If "all religions are the same" and all are "just as bad", then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion. Furthermore, one is faced with this fundamental fact: Whatever bad things "Christians" did, they did in disobedience to the clear teaching of the Christian scriptures, whereas by contrast there are MANY bad things that MANY Muslims have done that are clearly in obedience to the explicit commands of the Islamic scriptures. We can debate about interpretation all we want, but the fact remains that Muslim jihadis have always gone about their work reciting the chapter and verse of the Quran motivating and justifying their actions, whereas Christian crusaders could only proclaim vague slogans based mostly on generalized sentiment. There ARE NO biblical passages justifying the Crusades or similar actions.

So then, when I stand up and say in public that Islam is not a "religion of peace" but a religion of war, when I say that it is not good but evil, that is not because I hate individual Muslims -- I do not. It is not because I am advocating a generalized war of extermination against them -- I am not. But what I am saying is that it is past time that people start standing up and speaking the truth defiantly. We cannot let ourselves secumb to terror, but must have the courage to start standing up now.

What would I say to a Muslim to their face? I would say that I do not hate them, that I wish them no harm, that I am quite prepared to accept a "live and let live" co-existence. But I also am quite cognizant that by the dictates of their own religion, I am considered an "infidel" with no rights, even the right to life, and that the dictates of their own scriptures, literally interpreted, require them to not reciprocate such mutual tolerance. I must tell them that this is not acceptable. I must tell them that I do not hold them individually and personally responsible for whatever bad things other Muslims may have done past or present, but that I do hold them personally responsible to not resort to such evil themselves, nor to aid or abet those of their co-religionists that do. I must tell them that if they wish to live in this country and enjoy its wealth and freedoms, then they must also accept the necessary responsibilities. That includes not just refraining from harming other Americans or our institutions, but also in actively participating in our common defense. That means standing with us in condemning our enemies, and that means cooperating with the authorities in reporting any enemies that might have sneaked in and are plotting the destruction of many. And if they are not willing to do this, then I think I have good reason to ask "Why?"

[Delbert]

And if they are not willing to do this, then I think I have good reason to ask "Why?" <---Because they are Lemmings.

[Angelus Errare]

My name is Dan Darling.

"And that brings me to the main point: Jesus told us that we can and should evaluate people and things based upon their fruits -- the actual deeds and their character."

I agree. However, this also means acknowledging those who are fighting on our side in this, such as those I mentioned in my last post.

"Islam isn't something new, we have almost 14 centuries of history. It is a history that does not make for very pleasant reading. It is a history of almost unremitting war, murder, rape, pilage, slavery, destruction, persecution, a glorification and catering to the very worst of male sexual impulses, an "ends justifies means" approach to the employment of every evil deed in the book to advance the territorial reach of Islam, and the list of evil goes on and on.

"Even Christianity, if broadly enough (although perhaps illegitimately) defined, has a history marred by those who have done bad things. But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam. If "all religions are the same" and all are "just as bad", then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion."

First of all, I feel that you're adopting a rather negative view of Islam by listing only the negative actions perpetrated by Muslims (and this requires thinking outside the realm of Arab history) as opposed to the positive contributions to such things as science, art, and literature that Muslims have made throughout the centuries. If you looked at Christianity picking out only the bad stuff, you can come up with a similarly distorted view. You hear all the time about how Christians are and always have been evil, racist, sex-hating, homophobic, and oppressive people from any number of left-wing sources.

Christians (which I distinguish as being separate from Christianity because I'm not a big fan of collective judgement) have commited all of the atrocities you've ascribed to Islam:

* War - Check.
* Murder - Check.
* Slavery - Check.
* Destruction - Check.
* Persecution - Check.
* Glorification and Catering to the Worst Male Sexual Impulses - Check.
* Ends Justifies the Means Approach - Check.

"But Christianity has been around for a lot longer, and has had more of a global reach than Islam."

Indeed. But how did Christianity get that global advantage? Largely through conquest of the Americas, Central Asia, and Sub-saharan Africa. I honestly fail to see the distinction between the Spanish and Portugese conquests of the New World and that of the early Muslim caliphs.

"If 'all religions are the same' and all are 'just as bad,' then one should expect the history of Christianity to be even worse. No objective comparison of the two religions can possibly support that conclusion."

I'm not arguing for moral equivalence, but rather that the distinctions are a lot grayer than many people here are willing to recognize.

"Furthermore, one is faced with this fundamental fact: Whatever bad things "Christians" did, they did in disobedience to the clear teaching of the Christian scriptures, whereas by contrast there are MANY bad things that MANY Muslims have done that are clearly in obedience to the explicit commands of the Islamic scriptures."

Once again, "explicit commands" is a matter of exegesis. I don't view the Old Testament's prohibition against inter-marriage as applying to me, but a lot of Southern whites used to. Similarly, I doubt that our Turkish Freepers believe that the Qur'an tells them that they have to go out and kill infidels. I see no reason to doubt their sincerity in this regard, anymore than I doubt my own when it comes to intermarriage.

"What would I say to a Muslim to their face? I would say that I do not hate them, that I wish them no harm, that I am quite prepared to accept a 'live and let live' co-existence."

I really appreciate the clarification. In the end, that's all I'm asking for.

[virgil]

I am not talking about "followers of JC" I am referring to Mohammed himself and Islam. Surah 47:4 Muslims are commanded by Allah to smite the necks of all those who do not accept the teachings of Islam until all are subdued. When did JC ever call for execution? I am questioning the actual validity of Islam as a religion. There is no way that the God of Mohammed could be the same as the God of the Christians or even the Jews for that matter. JC never guaranteed 72 virgins in paradise. JC never said that war is a virtue and a duty. In Christianity, the law does not take presidnece over God like it does with Islam. JC did not come to give us law, he came to give us love.

[AmericanInTokyo]

Whenever Bush or some other idiotic person in his naive Administration issues some sugar coated, politically correct basura about Islam being civil and peaceful in this day and age when even the Europeans are starting to wake up and its all over the Northeast Asian press in clear language as a matter-of-fact (that this indeed is a backward, uncivil, violent word plague), we on Free Republic ought to tag the thread as

"TROPCRAP ALERT"i.e., (T)he (R)eligion (O)f (P)eace (Crap)