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Interpreting the Second Amendment (BARF Alert)
Washington Times ^ | 1/12/03 | Alex Gerber

Posted on 01/11/2003 10:53:56 PM PST by kattracks

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:00:21 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The worldwide terrorist activity directed from abroad against the United States has given birth to a Homeland Security Department to help fulfill one of the primary responsibilities of government provide for the public safety.

But if we honor the charge in the Preamble of our Constitution to "ensure domestic tranquility," it is surely not beyond the purview of this new agency to direct some of its attention to the domestic terror resulting from the guns overflowing our streets. Imagine the enormous uproar if the 30 murders daily from domestic gunfire resulted from al Qaeda terrorism.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 01/11/2003 10:53:56 PM PST by kattracks
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To: *bang_list
bang
2 posted on 01/11/2003 10:56:17 PM PST by The Obstinate Insomniac
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3 posted on 01/11/2003 10:56:36 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: kattracks
There are 10,000 pro-gun-control newspapers in America. Why would the Washington Times offer itself as just another anti-gun prostitute?
4 posted on 01/11/2003 11:12:06 PM PST by gg188
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To: Joe Brower; Jeff Head; Squantos; wardaddy; harpseal; Mulder; kaylar; coloradan; Noumenon; ...
Here we go again. The statist boot lickers never give up.

Again we see the ludicrous lie that the militia is the national guard, which was not formed for over 100 years after the Bill of Rights was adopted.

Why don't they ever quote George Mason, who said "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." Then he said "to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." Not very ambiguous!

And this lame brained writer doesn't know much about the English language. The first clause in no way changes or mitigates the primary clause. "The moon is made of green cheese, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Or as the point is sometime illustrated, (paraphrased)

"A well educated electorate being necessary for the advancement of a free nation, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infinged."

In this idiot's interpretation, only government educators could keep all types of "dangerous" books. Books containing that were deemed especially dangerous ideas could be banned for possession by common folk, they would have to be kept and explained by officially sanctioned educators.

Rubbish.

If these idiots continue pushing their half of the nation (the sheeple half yearning to be protected only by Big Shepherd)in this direction, we are eventually going to have to settle this issue with a war. That's the basic premise of my novel.

5 posted on 01/11/2003 11:15:28 PM PST by Travis McGee (BLOAT, cache, and take names!)
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To: kattracks
Of course this jackass failed to mention the militia as defined by staute (Title 10 USC 311)consists of the National Guard (organized militia) and all abled body males and females between the ages of 17 and 45 (unorganized militia).
6 posted on 01/11/2003 11:17:16 PM PST by Ajnin
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To: kattracks
The 2nd Amendment (ratified in 1791) does not refer to the National Guard, created in 1903.
7 posted on 01/11/2003 11:35:56 PM PST by Skwidd (Fire Controlman First Class Extraordinaire)
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To: Travis McGee
If they keep pushing it they are going to force a lot of people who are not too involved with the process (or not at all) to pick up their guns and go into politics.

I pray we can avoid that ... but these fools are so ignorant of history and the very meaning of liberty and freedom ... and they think they are so insulated from the consequences and results of their foolishness that they will run headlong into the brickwall because they never look up to see that one is there.

... as to the handlers that are using such useful idiots ... well, they too sorely underestimate the effectiveness of the 15 million hunting rifles.

8 posted on 01/11/2003 11:42:07 PM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Travis McGee
Looking forward to getting your book, hopefully while the SPECIAL PRE-PUBLICATION OFFER: MATT WILL PERSONALLY AUTOGRAPH ALL OF THESE COPIES offer is still in effect.

These people can read. I've worked with enough of these cretins to know they deliberately play word games to avoid debating from a logical stand.

If gunowners were as uncivilized and vicious as they would like us to believe, or if just they alone believed it, they would be hiding out and keeping their mouths shut tight. They obviously feel safe enough to speak out. Therefore, whatever plans and designs they have which would seriously rile up the gunowners, haven't been clearly revealed.

9 posted on 01/11/2003 11:43:21 PM PST by meadsjn
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To: Travis McGee
Also if one were to interpret the second amendment as a state militia's right to keep and bear arms for preservation then it would be the ONLY amendment that is not precisely an individual right in the entire document.

Of course, thinking folks already know there exists a body of letters from the very founders who crafted this language explaining that it is meant precisely as the right for the people to bear arms and is not to be infringed.....even though it is indeed being infringed constantly because we have neither a SCOTUS or POTUS with the guts or rightmindedness to just jump in and end this madness.

However...if a justice can extract infanticide justification from the right to privacy then I suppose we should be prepared for the storm before the calm.

I've lost my faith in our elected representatives to stop this hellbound train. One day either us or folks like us down the road are going to have to settle this unless a profound calamity occurs that will shock folks back into the real world and they'll be too busy simply surviving to worry about petty crap like social engineering and constitutional dilution....neither is a pretty resolution but that's about the only hope I see. If we lose, then it's game over for the individual here. How in the hell can anyone expect to rattle tyranny without weapons and the will to use them.
10 posted on 01/12/2003 12:08:09 AM PST by wardaddy (naive people who don't know history or human nature abound in the land of plenty)
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To: meadsjn; wardaddy
Good and well said to you both.

Hope all is ell with you.

... it's good to be home in Idaho.

11 posted on 01/12/2003 12:14:52 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Travis McGee; Jeff Head
the wording of the Second Amendment was a reflection of the political climate in Europe at the time. ???

Is it me or did this village idiot Alex Gerber just shoot himself in the foot with that statement ? I believe the current state of the world advocates RKBA for exactly the same reason. Your'a'peeins and their handlers are still such a form of goobermint IMO.

Just my take on the matter....

12 posted on 01/12/2003 12:16:15 AM PST by Squantos (Stay Safe Ya'll !)
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To: kattracks
"Indeed, our health-care statistics would closely resemble those of the other Western industrialized societies... <

What the he** is that supposed to mean? Would that be a good or bad thing overall? How many automobile accidents, drug overdoses, suicides, workplace accidents, cases of cancer or other diseases do these 'other Western industrialized societies' have?

...were it not for our disproportionately higher homicide rate, chiefly due to firearms."

Blah, blah, blah.....(sounds like a liberal, eh?).

The people who come up with this crap love to use emergency room stories to try and bolster their arguments. They never mention the fact that most emergency room visits in most communities are not a result of someone being shot.

"This aberration, brought into sharp focus by the recent spree of sniper shootings, suggests an urgent need to review our gun-control laws."

That's what it is. An aberration. In any society you have those nut jobs who cause trouble, but I'd rather live in a society where an individual has the right to protect themselves by whatever means necessary than rely on a joke of a government and their set of ever increasing useless and ineffective laws that only keep honest people honest.

Review, he**!!!! Repeal is the correct word here.

13 posted on 01/12/2003 12:26:08 AM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Jeff Head
Idaho....good for you....I hiked up Trapper Peak in the Bitteroots 25 years ago.

I'm jealous but ...Tennessee ain't exactly chopped liver...lol

There are approximately 15 million whitetail deer hunters alone in this fine country. That's comforting in a way.
14 posted on 01/12/2003 12:29:47 AM PST by wardaddy (deer season ended yesterday here......I should learn to call up a gobbler...lol)
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To: Looking4Truth
A fact everyone is afraid to mention is that if one removes endemic urban minority crime from the stats then we look less violent than a number of the more esteemed homogenous Euro-nations.

15 posted on 01/12/2003 12:33:50 AM PST by wardaddy (I know...I should learn to hold my offensive non PC tongue....I can't help myself)
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To: Jeff Head
Welcome back. Winter is exceptionally mild up here this year.
16 posted on 01/12/2003 12:37:58 AM PST by meadsjn
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To: wardaddy
"A fact everyone is afraid to mention is that if one removes endemic urban minority crime from the stats then we look less violent than a number of the more esteemed homogenous Euro-nations."

Excellent point!

And if the ones that are categorized as 'children' (under 21?) who have been "a 'victim' of 'gun violence'" in these urban environments were correctly categorized as criminals (When do some of them join gangs nowadays, about 11 or 12?) the stats would definitely be different.

Big Media lies!

17 posted on 01/12/2003 12:45:51 AM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: kattracks
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Truth cannot live on a diet of secrets, withering within entangled lies. Freedom cannot live on a diet of lies, surrendering to the veil of oppression. The human spirit cannot live on a diet of oppression, becoming subservient in the end to the will of evil. God, as truth incarnate, will not long let stand a world devoted to such evil. Therefore, let us have the truth and freedom our spirits require... or let us die seeking these things, for without them, we shall surely and justly perish in an evil world

18 posted on 01/12/2003 12:55:19 AM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK (The Fellowship of Conservatives)
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To: Jeff Head; Travis McGee; Squantos
Howdy! Long time, I'm afraid. Glad to see y'all are still at it!

I started to print this piece, then I realized that it would only be good for lining a bird cage or training a puppy where to do his business.

People like this moron don't get it and likely won't ever get it, until it's too late.

I do, however, like his suggestion about augmenting our firearms with mortars and rockets and such.

19 posted on 01/12/2003 1:02:49 AM PST by John R. (Bob) Locke
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke
Glad yer back ! Hope all is well with you and yours. I'm afraid our constitutional freedoms are erroding to a point where nothing less than domestic anarchy can restore the security our "Republic" has enjoyed to date.

I'm still on the soap and ballot box but it seems that the RKBA is enroute to the jury box or it's equal at SCOTUS.

Lord help us all if it plays out to the ammo box.

20 posted on 01/12/2003 1:13:10 AM PST by Squantos (Stay Safe Ya'll !)
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To: Skwidd
Believe it or not, one of the best legal arguments made for the individual right to bear arms is found in the "Dred Scott decision." Even thought the case was about the purported rights of slaves transported into free territory, the rationale in the decision discusses other types of Constitutional ownership. The Dred Scott decision is found many places on the web. Read it.

Another line of reasoning which makes the most sense to me is this: If the Framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights wanted the 2nd Amendment to specifically refer to a State's right, rather than an individual right, the wording of the Amendment would have been, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the MILITIA to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

But that's not what it says. It says, "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms ..." Nowhere else in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights, does the phrase, "the People," refer to the State. Look at Amendment 4. Interpreting "the People" to mean "the State" is ludicrous. Same with the 1st Amendment. Same with the Preamble.

21 posted on 01/12/2003 1:30:46 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
"Another line of reasoning which makes the most sense to me is this: If the Framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights wanted the 2nd Amendment to specifically refer to a State's right, rather than an individual right, the wording of the Amendment would have been, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the MILITIA to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"But that's not what it says. It says, "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms ..." Nowhere else in the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights, does the phrase, "the People," refer to the State. Look at Amendment 4. Interpreting "the People" to mean "the State" is ludicrous. Same with the 1st Amendment. Same with the Preamble."

Good point. I'll have to remember that one. You've also got me curious about the Dred Scott decision now. Haven't seen that one since about junior high so the memory is not clear. (Damn internet keeping me up all night. Ahhhh, I love it!)

22 posted on 01/12/2003 1:36:06 AM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: Looking4Truth
Big Media lies!

Yes and it's used as an excuse to encroach on the rest of us. Punish law abiding folks because of concentrated gun violence that they nevertheless fail to properly address. It is indeed Orwellian.

23 posted on 01/12/2003 1:46:09 AM PST by wardaddy (...they fear us...that is why they are after our weapons if they can't stifle our resolve)
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To: kattracks
But if we honor the charge in the Preamble of our Constitution to "ensure domestic tranquility," it is surely not beyond the purview of this new agency to direct some of its attention to the domestic terror resulting from the guns overflowing our streets. Imagine the enormous uproar if the 30 murders daily from domestic gunfire resulted from al Qaeda terrorism.

Imagine the enormous uproar if the 160 daily motor vehicle deaths, or as many as 268 daily hospital error deaths resulted from al Qaeda terrorism too!

Ban motor vehicles! Ban hospitals! And ban knives, swimming pools, bathtubs and ladders too!

And why doesn't this liberal, lying, dim-wit, gun-grabbing hack mention the nearly 5,500 times a DAY that firearms are used by law-abiding citizens to defend themselves from criminals??? http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html



Guns are now so easily accessible in our country that the restrictions imposed by the 1968 Gun Control Act are obviously enforced only in the breach.

"enforced only in the breach"!? WTF?
I think this guy secretly wants to be "enforced in the breach"!



The more stringent gun control measures currently under discussion, licensing of firearms and a federal database to identify bullets and shell casings involved in crime, are not likely to go far. They simply do not meet the approval of the National Rifle Association.

Nor do they meet ANY logical approval.
Regarding "Ballistic Fingerprinting" - http://www.nssf.org/PDF/CA_study.pdf
"Firearms that generate markings on cartridge casings can change with use and can also be readily altered by the user. They are not permanently defined identifiers like fingerprints or DNA. Hence, images captured when the firearm is produced may not have a fixed relationship to fired cartridge casings subsequently recovered."

"Cartridge casings from different manufacturers of ammunition may be marked differently by a single firearm such that they may not correlate favorably."

~ California Department of Justice, October 5, 2001.



Repeated polls indicating public support for more restrictive gun laws have been easily swept aside by this tightly controlled organization that is at the height of its power and has the clout to dominate gun politics.

And WHY is this organization at the "height of it's power"???
Because gun-grabbing nutjobs like Al Gore & Co. LOST in 2000 and LOST again in 2002 riding on the message of "more gun control laws" that the MAJORITY of Americans don't support.
MOST Americans don't want "gun" control, they want "vicious, savage, inhuman, troglyditic, coked-up, gangster-punk-thug-wastoid" control!!!



More importantly, they would have no effect on the basic cause of our outrageous homicide rate ? the misreading of the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

The basic cause of homicide is a "misreading of the Second Amendment"??? HO- LY- CRAP!!!
So now it's not the vicious, savage, inhuman, troglyditic, coked-up, gangster-punk-thug-wastoid who just got out of juvenile detention FOR THE 17TH FRICKING TIME's fault!! It's a problem with legal semantics!?
Unbefrickinlievable!!!



Clearly, the NRA does not interpret this amendment as the Framers of the Constitution intended. Rarely quoted is the clarifying preamble to the one sentence Second Amendment: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state," the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" (italics added). "Security" is the key word and refers to a problem completely irrelevant to our nation today. . . . But the political landscape in Europe has changed over the past two centuries, and the well-warranted fears of our Founding Fathers are clearly not germane today.

BZZZZT!!!

WRONG!!


1911: Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1929: Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 40-60 million citizens, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated or starved to death.

1935: China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1938: Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, Catholics and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

1956: Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."

1964: Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1966-1976: China still has gun control. Another 50-100 million civilians were killed in Mao Tse Tung's "Cultural Revolution".

1970: Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1990s: Rwanda established gun control. In a span of 100 days in April 1994, 800,000 people who were unable to defend themselves were massacred to death - most by machetes. How many dead, hacked-up bodies do you think were found holding a loaded gun? (answer is less than 1)

1992: Los Angeles California, USA. For three days police stood by and watched, unable to stop the rioting, arson and destruction of whole neighborhoods. Yet many Korean stores were virtually untouched - protected by their well-armed storeowners who exercised their right to self-defense through their right to keep and bear arms and who did for themselves what the police were unwilling or unable to do.

Late 1990s: Great Britain established total gun control. Robberies, burglaries and assaults have skyrocketted making London's violent crime rate now higher than anywhere in America.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it



The NRA has muddied the gun-control waters by insisting that the "militia" in the Second Amendment is not a collective noun, and also can be applied to an individual. But Madison's rhetoric on this point is the essence of clarity as has been repeatedly reaffirmed by our Founding Fathers, our courts and our lexicon. A few examples will suffice:
? In the Virginia 1776 Bill of Rights is found: "A well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people .
? In 1990, the Supreme Court ruled that the National Guard was the only rightful owner of the militia label.
? The dictionary defines militia as: (a) an army of citizens who are not regular soldiers but who undergo training for emergency duty or national defenses. (b) Every state of the United States has a militia called the National Guard.


Bull-Snot!!

First of all, why doesn't this moron look up the United States Code - THAT'S the only LEGALLY relevant meaning of "militia" -

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html
Clearly, all able-bodied males between 17-45 (17-64 for ex-military) are, under US Law, part of the "militia".
But this is all irrelevant anyway. The 2nd Amendment protects the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms, not "the state" and not "the militia".



In December 2002, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that individuals had no right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.

BFD! In October 2001, the U.S. 5th Circuit Court of Appeals stated that individuals DO have the right to keep and bear arms and that the 2nd Amendment DID apply to INDIVIDUALS. And that is STILL the law of the land in the 5th Circuit states even after the Supreme Court's examination of the Emerson case. The Supreme Court did NOT contradict nor erase the 5th Circuit's ruling that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is indeed an INDIVIDUAL right.

And in 1990, the Supreme Court stated that the term "people" in the 2nd Amendment referred to the same group as in the Preamble, the 1st, 4th, 9th & 10th Amendments. "While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests that "the people" protected by the Fourth Amendment, and the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community." ~ Supreme Court, U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 1990.

If the RKBA were meant to apply only to the militia, then the 2nd Amendment would have read, "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

For 200+ years the 2nd Amendment has ALWAYS been viewed as applying to individuals. Only in the last few decades has the dumbing down of society been so successful that the absurd "up-is-down, black-is-white" notions of the leftwing radical anti-gun whackos been able to take root.



Despite these legal decisions by the highest courts of the land and our English grammar, Attorney General John Ashcroft, undoubtedly with the blessing of President Bush, has assured the NRA that the Second Amendment gives an individual the right to bear arms. We evidently have an administration that not only sets itself above the law, but has little use for a dictionary.

I can just picture it now, this pencil-neck bonehead standing before the US Supreme Court waving a dog-eared copy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Abridged Form (in paperback) that he got as a high-school graduation gift from his mommy saying in a nasally twang "But-but-but your honor sir, according to the dictionary, the definition of the word "people" does not say anything about "Americans", so clearly then, according to MY pocket dictionary, the 2nd Amendment, along with the 1st, 9th, and 10th Amendments do not apply to "Americans". Yep. It's all right there in the dictionary sir."



Badly needed in the U.S. are strict gun-control laws aimed at removing guns from the streets and reducing a firearm homicide rate from 10 to a 100 times higher than that of other civilized nations. In developing such laws, perhaps we should consider, with reservations reflecting our culture and traditions, the firearm penalties meted out in countries whose populations are among the safest in the world ? e.g., Singapore. There is a certain appeal about living in an atmosphere where one can walk down the darkest alley at midnight without a second thought.

If this pathetic, frightened, sissified, emasculated, little wet mouse likes looking around the world for answers to America's problems - well fine, then maybe he should just take a lesson from England and Switzerland.
* England banned guns and now London has a higher crime rate than New York City or Washington D.C. (or even DETROIT!)
* Switzerland REQUIRES ALL households to have military guns and ammunition and they don't have hardly ANY firearm-related crimes.

* * * Criminals fear an armed population * * *

It's not the guns STUPID, it's the CRIMINALS!!!
24 posted on 01/12/2003 2:10:12 AM PST by The_Macallan
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To: Squantos
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

The biggest problem is that far too many people just don't care as long as the lights stay on and their paychecks keep getting deposited.

25 posted on 01/12/2003 2:32:36 AM PST by John R. (Bob) Locke
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To: Travis McGee
The heat seems to be increasing lately on our dear boiling frog.

Our beloved frog must jump soon, or perish.

Please join me in praying to our Heavenly Father, that this nation may be restored to rightousness without weathering the impending storm.

Lord God Almighty, we beseech You, that You restore truth and justice within the hearts of the people, who are the rulers of this nation. We ask that You allow them to see the folly and evil of thier ways, and to repent and humble themselves before You, and turn from thier sins, toward Your mercy. We humbly pray that all this may come to pass, that we may not be forced to do our final duty as patriots.
Bless those who love You and Liberty with the courage and strength and wisdom to prevail over our wicked foe and oppressor, that tool of Satan known as Democrats.
Your will be done in all things. Amen.

"Let not your hearts be troubled", fellow Freepers.

That same God who raised up friends to fight the battles of our forefathers is still upon His throne. He has NEVER forsaken the cry of His children.

All that having been said, let us be diligent in preparing ourselves.

We may have to jump soon.
26 posted on 01/12/2003 3:10:12 AM PST by Living Stone (Audemus jura nostra defendere)
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To: kattracks
"Regarding the Second Amendment, the Federalist Papers focused on the tyrannical kingdoms overseas that
would be "speedily overturned" were the people allowed to bear arms. The civilian militia proposed in the Second
Amendment was considered an "advantage" the new nation "would possess over the people of almost every other
nation" and would serve as a "barrier" to "the despotism which was the scourge of the Old World."
But the political landscape in Europe has changed over the past two centuries, and the well-warranted fears of
our Founding Fathers are clearly not germane today."
___________________________________________________________

Ya know, it strikes me that there are a lot of things in our laws that are "not germane" today. So in that sense, it doesn't matter what the rationale in 1789 was. Quartering troops in your home is not very germane, either. But we do not deny that the prohibition against it is a part of the Constitution, nor do we seek to explain it away like these anti-gun zealots attempt to do.

27 posted on 01/12/2003 3:27:06 AM PST by Adder
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To: kattracks
Even Charlton Heston, whose rifle would have to be "torn from his cold, dead hands," would agree that the need for a civilian armed militia to prevent the takeover of our government has no validity in the 21st century. To reason otherwise is ludicrous, else the gunslingers of America should augment their arsenal with tanks, anti-aircraft guns and mortars.

Apparently this guy reads no news other than his own ego-inspired chaff. Right now, there are several places where people armed mainly with rifles are holding their own against superior forces. Chechneya (forgive spelling) is one that comes to mind.

I remember seeing an article about cheap, almost useless guns being dropped into France during WW II. They were not powerful weapons, but they could be used to take better weapons from the enemy. It just goes up the ladder from there - you use those guns to raid an arsenal and acquire better weapons, etc., etc..
28 posted on 01/12/2003 3:39:48 AM PST by itzmygun
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To: The_Macallan; TigersEye; Shooter 2.5; CombatEngineer
Your most excellent and rightly outraged response to this article bears repeating.
I am bookmarking for the facts of your post alone.

1911: Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1929: Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 40-60 million citizens, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated or starved to death.

1935: China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1938: Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, Catholics and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

1956: Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."

1964: Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1966-1976: China still has gun control. Another 50-100 million civilians were killed in Mao Tse Tung's "Cultural Revolution".

1970: Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1990s: Rwanda established gun control. In a span of 100 days in April 1994, 800,000 people who were unable to defend themselves were massacred to death - most by machetes. How many dead, hacked-up bodies do you think were found holding a loaded gun? (answer is less than 1)

1992: Los Angeles California, USA. For three days police stood by and watched, unable to stop the rioting, arson and destruction of whole neighborhoods. Yet many Korean stores were virtually untouched - protected by their well-armed storeowners who exercised their right to self-defense through their right to keep and bear arms and who did for themselves what the police were unwilling or unable to do.

Late 1990s: Great Britain established total gun control. Robberies, burglaries and assaults have skyrocketted making London's violent crime rate now higher than anywhere in America.

CombatEngineer, I read these words posted by you on another thread - I own guns, but do believe in strict gun control. - and wanted to share some truth with you. I hope you will reconsider your stand on gun control upon reflection. After all, if RKBA is not a God-given right, and not clearly defined and defended in our 2nd Amendment, into whose hands will you willingly place the power of determining who has the right to keep and bear arms and who does not? I do not wish to jump to conclusions about you: perhaps what you meant by "strict gun control" would have been more aptly worded 'strict law enforcement'?

29 posted on 01/12/2003 3:50:06 AM PST by .30Carbine
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To: The_Macallan; CombatEngineer
After all, as The_Macallan put it:

It's not the guns STUPID,
it's the CRIMINALS!!!

30 posted on 01/12/2003 3:52:31 AM PST by .30Carbine
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To: Travis McGee; Jeff Head
I am looking forward to reading your books, gentlemen.

I am currently reading Unintended Consequences, by John Ross, which my loving husband gave me for Christmas.

31 posted on 01/12/2003 4:05:02 AM PST by .30Carbine
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To: Travis McGee
, only government educators could keep all types of "dangerous" books.

They already try to do just that. Drawing some physics and chemistry texts from the local library can draw some dramatic attention for yourself.

32 posted on 01/12/2003 4:05:21 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: kattracks
Bump
33 posted on 01/12/2003 4:10:01 AM PST by chuknospam
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To: kattracks
The publicity swirling around the snipers and their upcoming trials will eventually simmer down, but not the strident voice of the NRA with its familiar battle cry about "our constitutional right to bear arms." Repeated polls indicating public support for more restrictive gun laws have been easily swept aside by this tightly controlled organization that is at the height of its power and has the clout to dominate gun politics.

This is obscene, not only is protecting our constitutionally guaranteed rights "strident", but those Constitutionally guaranteed rights should be swept aside by a poll.

34 posted on 01/12/2003 5:33:04 AM PST by Godel
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To: Travis McGee
Clearly the author of this piece cares nothing for reducing the crime rate, greater security, or the clear meaning of the Second. His only care is instituting the agenda of the gun confiscation lobby. It is a necessary prerequisite to a totalitarian state and that totalitarian state is all that really matters to these pices of offal.
35 posted on 01/12/2003 7:43:21 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Travis McGee
This guy is a fossil, he graduated from the U of Illinois over 60 years ago. I doubt he has any particular expertise in parsing the English language or interpreting constitutional mandates. Here's his data if you would like to communicate directly with him:

Association of State Medical Board Executive Directors

Medical Board of California Search Results


Licensee Name ALEX GERBER
Primary License Status Code RENEWED/CURRENT | RETIRED
Secondary License Status Code PERM CE WAIVER
License Number AFE9465
License Type AFE
Address 13374 CAM. MAR VILLA
City State Zip DEL MAR CA 92014
Country USA
Original License Date 04/30/1942
License Expiration Date 10/31/2003
Medical School UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS COLLEGE OF MEDICINE
Year Graduated 1941

Note: data current as of: 12/31/2002

36 posted on 01/12/2003 7:45:15 AM PST by tomswiftjr
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke
Welcome home
37 posted on 01/12/2003 7:47:30 AM PST by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: wardaddy
From "Time Almanac 2002",

Murder Victims: by Race and Sex, 1999

White: 6,310 Black: 5,855

Murder Victims: Types of Weapon Used, 1999

Firearms: 8,259 (65.2%) Knives: 1,667 (13.2%) Blunt objects: 736 (5.8%) Personal weapons: 855 (6.8%)

Looks like we ought to take guns (and knives) away from blacks! They are 12.3% of the population (white: 75.1%), and so 6 times as likely to commit murder. Disarm blacks, cut the murder rate in half!

What say the liberal mongrels?

38 posted on 01/12/2003 8:38:53 AM PST by GregoryFul
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To: capitan_refugio
Believe it or not, one of the best legal arguments made for the individual right to bear arms is found in the "Dred Scott decision."

Thanks, I'll have a look!

39 posted on 01/12/2003 8:55:56 AM PST by Skwidd (Fire Controlman First Class Extraordinaire)
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To: kattracks
Badly needed in the U.S. are strict gun-control laws aimed at removing guns from the streets and reducing a firearm homicide rate from 10 to a 100 times higher than that of other civilized nations. In developing such laws, perhaps we should consider, with reservations reflecting our culture and traditions, the firearm penalties meted out in countries whose populations are among the safest in the world — e.g., Singapore. There is a certain appeal about living in an atmosphere where one can walk down the darkest alley at midnight without a second thought

Solution is simple nitwit, move to singapore. Adios.

40 posted on 01/12/2003 8:57:27 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom
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To: Travis McGee
Here we go again. The statist boot lickers never give up.

Their goal is nothing short than the total disarmanent and slavery of the American people. The bastards are just as much a threat to our Republic as Islamic terrorists are.

If these idiots continue pushing their half of the nation (the sheeple half yearning to be protected only by Big Shepherd)in this direction, we are eventually going to have to settle this issue with a war.

That's the bad news. The good news is that they would lose.

41 posted on 01/12/2003 9:01:59 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Jeff Head
... well, they too sorely underestimate the effectiveness of the 15 million hunting rifles.

I hope that my book serves as a clarion call to wake them up to this unpleasant (for them) reality before we need to actually go there.

42 posted on 01/12/2003 9:21:22 AM PST by Travis McGee (BLOAT, cache, and take names!)
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To: Travis McGee
How about just saying, "If ya want 'em, why don't you just come an' take 'em, nancy boy." Then arm up.
43 posted on 01/12/2003 9:22:06 AM PST by PatrioticAmerican
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To: John R. (Bob) Locke; wardaddy; .30Carbine
You all will love Travis's work (book) ... check it out HERE

... and spread the word. We have another Uintended Consequences coming out here ... only better IMHO.

... very good to see you Bob ... I've been real busy myself.

44 posted on 01/12/2003 9:24:02 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Travis McGee
If they read it ... it cannot help but do that ... unless they are so hardened and committed to their course that they are beyond redemption IMHO, and thus they become ...

Enemies Foreign and Domestic.

45 posted on 01/12/2003 9:28:09 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: meadsjn
Thanks for the subtle linkage! I wonder if anybody missed it?
46 posted on 01/12/2003 9:29:02 AM PST by Travis McGee (BLOAT, cache, and take names!)
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To: wardaddy
One day either us or folks like us down the road are going to have to settle this unless a profound calamity occurs that will shock folks back into the real world and they'll be too busy simply surviving to worry about petty crap like social engineering and constitutional dilution....neither is a pretty resolution but that's about the only hope I see. If we lose, then it's game over for the individual here.

I hate to think it will take a major WMD attack and economic collapse to turn us from our course, but that may be reality. But that would be just exchanging the frying pan for the fire, and leave us in possibly a worse condition with even less freedom, ruled by tyrants and warlords emerging from the ashes. Hopefully some of the gun gestapo politicians will hear about the book, read it, and wake up in time to the disastrous course they are steering for the nation, and for themselves personally.

47 posted on 01/12/2003 9:33:54 AM PST by Travis McGee (BLOAT, cache, and take names!)
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To: Squantos
Writers like Alex Gerber look at an elephant and see a snake and a tree and think they are in the garden of eden.

They tune out the three ton beast in front of them.

48 posted on 01/12/2003 9:36:23 AM PST by Travis McGee (BLOAT, cache, and take names!)
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To: meadsjn
Thanks my friend. Weather here has been mild too ... though we are getting quite a bit of moisture ... meaning snow in the mountians saved for the summer in the valleys.

I'll be in touch soon. Volume III is about 4-6 weeks out.

49 posted on 01/12/2003 9:36:53 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: .30Carbine
Thank you.

... and I look forward to your comments and thoughts.

Volume III is about 4-6 weeks from publication. I and II are doing well for a self-published work.

50 posted on 01/12/2003 9:38:06 AM PST by Jeff Head
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