What are the most important factors in determining "stopping power"? (vanity)

self

[rudy45]

I have been investigating various pistols for self-defense/concealed carry purposes. From time to time I see threads on the merits of one caliber vs. another. For example, I have seen snide (g) comments about .380 (e.g. "great for shooting mice" or "what are you going to do with it, THROW it at your attacker?").

I wonder, however, if OTHER factors besides caliber will affect stopping power. Specifically, am I correct that different types of ammunition, though designed for the same gun, can/will have different speeds? If I remember my physics correctly, force=mass times the square of acceleration. Therefore, is it possible that even with a "smaller" caliber such as .22 or .380, I can compensate by having a higher velocity round? In other words, do different types of ammunition vary that greatly in speed as to affect stopping ability? Thanks.

[SauronOfMordor]

Therefore, is it possible that even with a "smaller" caliber such as .22 or .380, I can compensate by having a higher velocity round? In other words, do different types of ammunition vary that greatly in speed as to affect stopping ability?

A 55 grain .223 will have significantly more stopping power than a 150 grain .38, due to higher velocity, and thus higher kinetic energy.

The "stopping power" of a round is dependent on how much kinetic energy can be applied to damaging tissue and causing rapid blood loss, which depends on how much energy is in the round, and how much of that energy is actually expended in the target (a round which makes a neat tiny hole and expends most of its energy in the wall beyond the target doesn't do you that much good.

Big, deep holes are better than small or shallow holes

Depending on the target, a .22 may stop one aggressor, while another (for example, hyped up on PCP) may require an RPG splattering body parts over the landscape to stop.

One final note: a .22 in the hand beats a .44 magnum left home in the closet. The ideal carry gun is the one light enough to be carried habitually, while having enough power to take down an average attacker. You may be best served by having two carry guns: a small light one for times when concealability is most important, and a .45 for those times when you need to be going thru nasty parts of town at night

[heckler]

Kind of uncomfortable to stuff one in your waistband though, even with a collapsible stock.

[Shooter 2.5]

There are diffent ammunition manufacturers that make different types of ammo for the same gun.

Let's say you have that Walther .380 and you decide to practice. You can go to Wal-mart and pick up some inexpensive ammuntion that has a standard Round nosed Jacketed bullet on a standard load of powder. The powder would give a medium velocity and you could practice all day with it.

The same manufacturer could also design a bullet that could open up to a larger diameter and increase the powder charge for a higher velocity and it would still be safe to use. The price of the ammunition would be higher too.

Include a half dozen manufacturers making different cartridges for different applications and you could see a wide range of ammunition that can be used in the same pistol.

[SauronOfMordor]

115gr JHP

115 gr is the weight of the bullet in grains (437.5 grains = 1 ounce)

JHP = jacketed hollow point = bullet with a hollow cavity in front (which makes it open up and expand on impact) and a copper jacket surrounding it (so you don't get lead buildup on the inside of your barrel)

[tdadams]

I think a lot of people are confused by stopping power and lethality. I see a lot of people who seem to use them interchangably.

Almost any size round can be lethal if used right. As someone else posted, the AR-15 (an excellent gun) uses a .223 round and it is a highly lethal weapon. However, if you shoot someone with a .22 short round from a short barrel pistol, well you might as well beat them over the head with the pistol. It will probably be more effective.

A bigger round, like a .44 magnum, a .45 ACP, or a .50 caliber will almost always stop someone dead in their tracks. A smaller, high velocity round like a 9mm can go straight through someone without them even realizing they've been shot (for a while anyway).

But I also subscribe to the school of thought that says I'd rather carry a .25 than nothing at all.

[xm177e2]

If the round bounces off the target, counter-intuitively, it gets momentum from the target and actually transfers more momentum. If you had armor which caused bullets to bounce off, they would actually transfer more momentum than rounds that stuck to the armor.

Yes, but the momentum of a bullet is not all that much. The momentum of the bullet as it hits its target is less (because of air resistance) than the momentum when it left your gun. The recoil of your handgun is worse than the sheer momentum the victim feels. If the bullet bounces off, I suppose the momentum could be increased, but what matters is the

momentum/(surface area * time)

(I think--it's been a while since I did any physics)

[xm177e2]

In theory you could push a .22 fast enough to carry more enery than a .380.

Such a thing exists, in handgun form. The FN Five-seveN does this.

FN 5.7x28mm ball:	31gr	2,133fps	309ft/lbs*
Winchester .380ACP silvertip hollowpoint:	85gr	1000fps	189 ft/lbs

Sources: FN, Winchester Ammunition, * calculated by arnieairsoft program

[heckler]

Thats the round that they use in that funky little submachine gun that FN developed , isnt it?

[archy]

However, if you shoot someone with a .22 short round from a short barrel pistol, well you might as well beat them over the head with the pistol. It will probably be more effective.

The Israeli El Al airline security officers assigned to that detail by the General Security Services [ShinBet] thought otherwise, and found the reduced loads used in their .22 Berettas [loaded in .22 long rifle cartridge cases for feeding through the pistols magazines, but at .22 short velocity levels] were quite okay. I had the chance to shoot with a couple of those operators, who thought that shooting off a 500-round box of ammo was a good warmup, and that my Browning GP was unnecessarily noisy. A few also used the .22 short chambered Astra model 2000 *cub* as a backup handgun; the little Astra makes even a Walther PPK look large by comparison; I used to keep one as a backup in my handcuff case. But again, you have to practice with it to get the desired result.

There's at least one recorded case of an elephant being killed by a .22 short. And do not ever think that if such a weapon is pointed your way that your life is not in danger.

[tdadams]

I'm fairly fond of little guns, so you're preaching to the converted. Like I said, it's all a matter of how you use and what your needs are. I imagine El Al security thinks that's a good round so as not to penetrate the plane if it's fired. They're also extremely well trained and are infinitely more capable than most of killing a person with one shot from a .22 short.

I also don't think, as a lot do, that higher velocity is always better. As I said before, a high velocity 9mm can go straight through a person without their even realizing they've been shot. A person shot with a .380 on the other hand, which is about the same size round but with less velocity, would definitely know they've been shot, especially if you're talking about hollow points.

If anyone thinks being shot with a .22 short is no big deal, just take a quarter inch screwdriver and stab it in your neck. One is just as lethal as the other. But going back to the OP about stopping power, it's the last thing you'd use for stopping power.

[boris]

"FORGET ABOUT 1-SHOT STOPPING POWER. There is no such thing as it takes a brain or spine shot to effect a complete shutdown of a perp, both iffy under stress. Proper bullet placement and 'hit them til they go down' no matter the caliber should be how you train."

Oh, I am not so sure of that:

From my limited shooting of this little number, it has "near-one-shot" stopping power on the fellow who launches the rounds.

I don't think the guy at the other end would be in any shape to 'continue' if hit anywhere near a vital organ...

--Boris

[Pistolshot]

Take into account if the perp is high on meth, PCP, or even just on adreneline. NO cartridge will be a reliable 1-shot stopper.
Yes, that is an impressive weapon and cartridge, but not really concealable or practical.

[The Coopster]

LOL! Very true.....

[xm177e2]

Yes, the P90.

[Shooter 2.5]

There's at least one recorded case of an elephant being killed by a .22 short.

Archy, I think you better back that one up. That's too difficult to believe.

[TLI]

Stopping power?
OK just remember this when everyone is going on about velocity + mass >>> energy = some number and so on....

A 9mm MIGHT EXPAND,
A .45 WILL NOT SHRINK.

Think Glock 21.

[Jim Noble]

Hitting the target is #1.

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

Have you tried the Taurus PT145? It's a medium sized .45 that holds 10 rounds.

Yes I have. I like mine and wear it when the weather is too warm to allow concealment of my 1911 and cool enough where I don't need to use my Keltec .40.

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

he 380 size guns are pocketable, also kinda bulky.

Have you seen this new pistol by Keltec yet? American made also.

KEL-TEC P-3AT PISTOL INTRODUCTION
The P-3AT is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, chambered for the .380 Auto cartridge. It has been developed from our highly successful P-32 pistol with negligible increase in weight and size. The slidestop has been eliminated and the magazine capacity reduced to 6 rounds due to the larger cartridge.

Technical Specifications
Caliber: .380 AUTO
Weight unloaded: 7.2 oz
Loaded magazine: 2.8 oz
Length: 5.2"
Height: 3.5"
Width: .77"
Sight radius: 3.8"
Muzzle energy max: 250 ftlbs
Capacity: 6+1 rounds
Trigger pull: 5 lbs