The Logical Flaw in the Agenda of the Post-Conciliar Church

Catholic Apologetics | December 5, 2003 | Robert Sungenis

[redhead]

...bumping for later read...

[bobjam]

It is interesting to notice what the post conciliar movement has done to Anglicanism. Most of the notions you complain about were imported into the Anglican Church in the last 40 years. The Church of England, ECUSA and the Anglican Church of Canada by and large embraced these notions. While traditional evanglical minded Anglicans were working in Africa and Asia, their home provinces were being eroded out from under them. Now we are faced with the fact that the African and Asian provinces are in the process of expelling ECUSA, Canada and maybe even England.

[JesseHousman]

...she is the same Church now as she was prior to Vatican II.

Au contraire. (A little conciliatory French lingo there to show our brethern from Gaul that I'm not mad at them.)

This American Catholic Church, which our bishops believe is a flexible franchise granted them from the Vatican, has twisted and changed the mass and sacrements into something unrecognizable from what is taking place in other countries.

I believe the Roman Catholic Church has been invaded by disciples of satan who have sold their souls and are the ones who have been wielding the wrecking ball to Christ's Church.

Mortals, being so foolish, don't seem to realize that The Trinity is being angered mightily by what is transpiring here on earth. In mortal due time there will come a reckoning because God only puts up with so much mischief before punishing the miscreants. We, in the Church, are guilty of sitting back while this cauldron boils and bubbles. We've watched the church become inundated with homosexual perverts, the tabernacle being moved into the rectory garage, everybody running up to receive communion in their hand by a lay distributor in an act that has become as mechanical as the moving of one's bowels.

Confession? What is that? Some "catholic" churches don't even schedule regular confession. Extreme Unction? Few understand what that meant in the pre-Vatican II years.

There are, without doubt, a few popes that owe our Lord an accounting as to why they would preside over such sacrilege as has been ongoing for over forty years.

I have great respect for the papacy and have found some things to admire in the current one. However, that being said, the traveling about and the conciliatory moves to pagans and other non-Christians has tried my patience and I can only wonder about what God thinks about Peter's successor watching pagans dancing bare-breasted apparently for his entertainment. You see, it's still true that the only way to God is through the Son!

[JesseHousman]

sacrements=sacraments

[Unam Sanctam]

There is a difference between criticism of abuses and problems within the Church and saying it is a new religion. So no, despite problems and abuses, the Church is in essence the same Bride of Christ as she has always been. If one doesn't believe that, then one is not in communion with the successor of Peter and one is not a Catholic.

[Salvation]

**Confession? What is that? Some "catholic" churches don't even schedule regular confession. Extreme Unction? Few understand what that meant in the pre-Vatican II years.**

I don't think you are correct here.

The sacraments are present in the Church and the bishops and priests are well aware of them.

For your information:
These two sacraments now have different names:
The Sacrament of Reconciliation
The Sacrament of the Annointing of the Sick

[JesseHousman]

I don't think you are correct here.

I know they are termed differently in the American Catholic Church. I think it optional in regards to how we can refer to them. The Church to which I belong still calls it confession.

The point I was attempting to make is that the mass is different in every parish. Traveling about the country and the world used to mean that regardless of the nation in which you were attending mass you always knew what prayers were being said as Latin was the language and the ritual was always the same everywhere.

Changing the names of the sacraments is like changing from "Holy Ghost" to Holy Spirit almost as though the word Ghost was scary.

[JesseHousman]

Unfortunately, US, you have misunderstood me to the extent that you are suggesting that I am not a practical, practicing Catholic.

I believe, unequivocally, that I can state that empty-headed secularists (probably not all are satanists) have invaded the Roman Catholic Church and are turning it into a haven for secular agnostics. The homosexuals jumped on board because it was convenient and the very vehicle from which to expand their agenda.

Fortunately their victims ratted on them and, in my opinion, these deviants were never priests in the eyes of God because their true murky agenda was already fixed in their minds.

[Unam Sanctam]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Maximilian]

For your information: These two sacraments now have different names:

Exactly Robert Sungenis' point in the article above! Everything is changed, even the 7 sacraments. Why do they have different names? Isn't that because they are different sacraments? It wasn't only the Mass, but every single sacramental rite, that was changed since Vatican II.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I see no evidence that the Pope has said anything heretical

wellllllllllllllll, I'm not so sure.

This deserves a request for citations. Please, what heresies have been taught by the Pope or Church?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Changing the names of the sacraments is like changing from "Holy Ghost" to Holy Spirit almost as though the word Ghost was scary.

That's something I've wondered about. If the Latin is spiritu, why isn't spirit equally acceptable? My 1959 Latin Missal translates spiritu as spirit.

"Ghost" is from the German "Geist". "Spirit" is from the Latin "Spiritu". "Spiritu" translated into German is "Geist". The words are identical. Its like quibbling over calling the treelot behind your hosue a "wood" (from the German "wald") or a "forest" (from the French "foret").

Hence in German, "Et cum spiritu tuo" is "Und mit deinem geist".

I fail to understand the complaints of Solange Hertz and Co. about "Ghost" vs. "Spirit". It just doesn't matter.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Catechism calls "Confession" both "Penance", "Reconciliation" and "Confession". The primary name used is "Sacrament of Penance" as can be seen readily be reading the section on it.

As to "Annointing of the Sick", the new name has been adopted to try to finally kill off the notion long spread abroad that it was only for reception when one is at death's door. "Annointing" however, is the same as "Unction". What is changed is "extremis" to "infirmorum". This is not a "real" change.

Now, this sacred annointing of the sick was instituted by Christ our Lord, as truly and properly a sacrament of the new law, insinuated indeed in Mark, but recommended and promulgated to the faithful by James the Apostle, and brother of the Lord.

Vatican II or Council of Trent???

Council of Trent, Session 14!

The Council of Trent also notes: "It is also declared, that this unction is to be applied to the sick, but to those especially who lie in such danger as to seem to be about to depart this life". The sacrament is for the "sick" ("infirmorum" = "infirm"), but is especially to be given to those about to die. It would be wrong to turn this around and say it is only for those about to die, and not for the sick, which is what it frequently became in practice.

This really is not different from what Vatican II says, that Anointing of the Sick "is not a sacrament for those only who are at the point of death. Hence, as soon as anyone of the faithful begins to be in danger of death from sickness or old age, the fitting time for him to receive this sacrament has certainly already arrived." (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 73)

Really, where's the change? And what are you objecting to?

[Domestic Church]

"If it is true, as the post-conciliar advocates try to convince us, that the church has found a “better way” for Catholicism and that the old way was wrong, this means they must also admit the church can err. That is a logical fact that cannot be denied."

Why stop there...go one further...this means not only that they must admit the church can err, they admit it has erred..and yet continue to insist they are correct right now even though they are building on error.

It is obvious they are in error more from the current infiltration of evil than from the rich heritage of the Saints.

[Maximilian]

Really, where's the change? And what are you objecting to?

The rite of every single sacrament was changed, and even the names were changed for goodness sake. I'm objecting to the idea that everything is the same although everything is different. The Church does not require us to accept such nonsense. Very often it is just change for change's sake. Why would someone promote such change for its own sake? Because it is all part of the revolutionary dialectical process by which continuous transformation occurs.

Same with the issue of the "Holy Ghost." The translation "Holy Spirit" is not invalid. But why make the change? Why change every single item of the faith? Catholics can't even pray together anymore since there are now so many different versions of even the most basic prayers.

[Pyro7480]

Catholics can't even pray together anymore since there are now so many different versions of even the most basic prayers.

Tell me about it! This is one major reason why I like saying the Rosary by myself (others include people not keeping up the pace with everyone else, I like to take my time, etc.). It also gives me time to meditate on the fruit of each mystery. I use a book of quotes by Saint Francis de Sales that is organized according to the 15 fruits associated with the 15 traditional mysteries of the Rosary (plus other topics such as the Eucharist). Check it out. It's a great resource (and Francis is one of my favorite saints - he is the patron saint of the diocese I grew up in, and the patron saint of the high school I went to).
SERMON IN A SENTENCE, VOL. 2: ST. FRANCIS DE SALES - John P. McClernon, Ed.

[Maximilian]

I use a book of quotes by Saint Francis de Sales that is organized according to the 15 fruits associated with the 15 traditional mysteries of the Rosary (plus other topics such as the Eucharist). Check it out.

Thanks for the link. St. Francis de Sales is great for those kind of short "sermons."