The Logical Flaw in the Agenda of the Post-Conciliar Church

How do we know any "truths" of the Catholic Faith? There are plenty of things about the Church today I wish were like they used to be, however, I can't see the logic behind the most drastic anti-Vatican II attacks.

Vatican II was a council, in the traditional fashion, of all the bishops united with the Pope. If they can teach such errors as some claim, how do you know that previous councils did not do the same? Part of being Catholic means you are humble enough to admit you don't know everything and trust that the Apastolic successors will be protected by the Holy Spirit in teaching the Truth.

Alot of externals have changed over the centuries, and in my opinion not always for the better, but as long as core doctrine still stands (which I believe it always will) I will grumble, but certainly not get schismatic. I'm not going to try to be 'more Catholic' than the Pope :-?

The essence has not changed.

If I were to chop off your arms and legs, I might comfort you by saying, "Don't worry, your essence has not changed." You might be upset nonetheless. The fact that your "form" is in a "state of flux" with regard to body parts would be very unpleasant, despite the fact that some "essence of you" remains. In fact, I could go further and kill your body entirely will still maintaining, "Your essence has not changed." One would sympathize with you if you preferred to avoid that option.

Well, I suppose its only right to draw your attention to the origin of this quotation.

... the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Note the end of this paragraph, then explain to me again where the heresy is. If you want the qualifications of the quote, why not look to its source? I'm still looking for your implied "Islam is salvific" thrust here, and I just cannot find it.

"Why such ambiguity in official Vatican documents? Are these contradictions intentional or just the result of very sloppy drafting?"

Herein lies the problem with several statements in V2 documents - they are ambiguous enough that they can permit both an orthodox and heterodox interpretation.

However, as JPII has stated several times that V2 has not departed doctrinally from Tradition, and must be interpreted in the light of Holy Tradition, then this should be the key for understanding any ambiguous statements (as indeed it is the case for all Councils).

Thus any interpretation that would conflict with Holy Tradition should be flushed - including any novel interpretation offered by JPII - because surely we cannot expect the Holy Father to infallibly contradict himself!

;)

Well, I'll be honest--it was late and I was feeling lazy so I relied on third double's quote without checking its origin.

Having said that, the expanded quote you provided (post 67) is a marvel of subtlety and, dare I say, double talk? (It's late again.) Yet returning to the original discussion, it certainly seems to imply there is more there than just salvation in the offing (esp. when you consider his past actions of kissing the Koran, etc).

Whatever.

I have misgivings about this pope, but I reserve judgment as I believe Our Lord's promise. And the pope's opinions, even about theological matters, aren't binding, nor are they infallible--even more so when he is speaking about extraordinary paths to salvation. So it's vain conjecture on my part to go further.

We'll just leave it at that. That's what I meant by not following a pope blindly.

" Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sin."

All of your catechisms must be post VC II. There's no mention of this nonsense in my catechism. If the above statement were true, anybody who communicates daily or often can assume his venial sins are forgiven and he his "preserved" from "grave (mortal) sin", ergo, no need for Confession. Maybe that's why my Novus Ordo church only offers the "Sacrament of Reconciliation" 20 minutes a week.

Well, Christ thought there was a need for Confession and I'll stick with Him and not your New Catechism.

No we can't stop here when you continue to bear false witness. He said "combined they can be" mortal - NOT combined they can be a mortal sin. As far an I can tell from reading Land of the Irish's post he didn't imply there is some sort of exchange rate for venial sins and mortal sins.

Thank-you. You have a much better comprehension of English grammar than your debater.

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