The Logical Flaw in the Agenda of the Post-Conciliar Church

Catholic Apologetics | December 5, 2003 | Robert Sungenis

[Unam Sanctam]

Because those who follow the law of God written in their hearts, as Paul says, may be saved, and through such obedience are imperfectly and invisibly united with Christ. Of course the only way to be sure of salvation is to be a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church.

[sinkspur]

Casting pearls again, I see.

Your a better man than I to continue to wade into this swamp.

[Unam Sanctam]

Christ has given us the Church and the sacraments as the only sure way to get to Heaven. Those not in visible communion may or may not make it. It is the difference between taking a hike with a map versus taking a hike without a map. One may make it without a map, but it is a much more iffy proposition. That is why it is still important to evangelize and try to bring everybody into the Catholic faith.

[Unam Sanctam]

Your a better man than I to continue to wade into this swamp.

Perhaps it's penance for my sins.

[Unam Sanctam]

I would agree that many of the liturgical and devotional changes after VII have not necessarily been for the better. However, as far as sacraments are concerned, they are mere changes of form. The essence has not changed. The form of the sacraments have always been in a state of flux. The way sacraments were celebrated in the early Church or the Middle Ages were not necessarily the same as what was codified pursuant to the Council of Trent.

[Land of the Irish]

Of course the only way to be sure of salvation is to be a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church.

Another Calvinist attitude. You think every Catholic is predestined to Heaven.

[Unam Sanctam]

Of course the only way to be sure of salvation is to be a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church. Another Calvinist attitude. You think every Catholic is predestined to Heaven.

Oh come on, you are now putting words into my mouth. I never said any such thing. If we have been baptized and die in a state of grace (i.e., with no unabsolved mortal sins on our conscience) then we can be sure that we are saved through the merits of Christ's passion, not otherwise.

[attagirl]

As for the pope not saying anything heretical, I'll quote another freeper, third double: "John Paul II says that 'the plan of salvation includes the Muslims.'"

Is that heretical enough for you?

And his actions discussed in various posts go under the same category.

[Unam Sanctam]

...or one can take the easy route and become a Muslim!

It is not easy at all, since a Muslim can never be sure he is truly following the law of God written in his heart. Moreover, there are many sinful elements of Islam that a Muslim would have to abjure or abstain from, such as offensive physical jihad.

[Land of the Irish]

Oh come on, you are now putting words into my mouth. I never said any such thing.

Quoting you verbatim is not putting words in your mouth:

Of course the only way to be sure of salvation is to be a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church.

Whose your spiritual advisor, Cardinal Kaspar? I suggest you learn a little lot more about the Catholic religion. Venial sins are additive, they are serious wounds to the soul, each one is not mortal, but combined, they can be. Secondly, only God will individually judge us as to who died in a state of grace. No one on their death bed can be sure they are saved unless they receive a divine revelation such as Francisco and Jacinto did. And look at the penances those young children, assured of heaven for themselves, still performed to keep other souls out of hell.

[Land of the Irish]

It is not easy at all, since a Muslim can never be sure he is truly following the law of God written in his heart.

It's not easy for Catholics either. You can't just claim, "I'm a practicing Catholic, thus, I'm guaranteed a spot in Heaven."

[Unam Sanctam]

Granted, but it is a lot easier to determine whether one is guilty of a mortal sin and go to confession than it is to tell whether on is really and truly following God's law written in the hearts of pagans.

[Unam Sanctam]

If one has given a fulsome confession, then one can be reasonably sure of being in a state of grace. I do think that God has given us a relatively clear roadmap. You make Catholicism sound quite Calvinist -- one can never be sure one is a member of the elect. Forget it, I trust in God's mercy and think that through the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Penance and the Eucharist, God in His infinite mercy has shown us a clear path to Heaven following fixed channels of His Grace.

[Land of the Irish]

You are the Calvinist; you believe in predestination:

Of course the only way to be sure of salvation is to be a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church.

I rest my case.

[Unam Sanctam]

I don't believe in predestination. Anyone can chose to be saved or not. We have to want to be saved. If we want to be saved, being a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church, and dying in a state of grace is all that is required.

[Land of the Irish]

If we want to be saved, being a member of the visible Church of Christ on earth, the Catholic Church, and dying in a state of grace is all that is required.

So what's required of Muslims who, aware of the Catholic profession, want to be saved. They receive no sacraments, yet they are not "invincibly ignorant". They don't even acknowledge the Holy Trinity. How can they be saved?

[Unam Sanctam]

Not all are necessarily saved -- they don't all follow the law of God written in their hearts. Please take it up with St. Paul on that doctrine, by the way. Also, it is not clear to me that there aren't Moslems who are invincibly ignorant.

[Land of the Irish]

Also, it is not clear to me that there aren't Moslems who are invincibly ignorant.

It is not clear to me that there aren't Catholics, e.g. pro-abort politicians, who will also claim they were invincibly ignorant at their final judgement. Once again, only God can make that judgement, not the individual.