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How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
Assoc of Students at Catholic Colleges ^ | Mark Shea

Posted on 02/06/2006 1:02:10 PM PST by NYer

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Comment #181 Removed by Moderator

To: TexConfederate1861
Well, if you want to look at it from OUR point of view, it is absolute HERESY to deny the authority of Holy Mother Church.

I'm not interested in your point-of-view. Only God's point-of-view matters. He says nothing in His Word about obeying Rome, but He does have a few choice words about the matter at hand, some of which I have already shared, and more about raising tradition above Scripture. That was the major issue Yeshua contended with the Pharisees over, in fact.

The same Church that has been given the very power of God to "bind and loose".

Binding and loosing does not extend to changing or annuling the commands of Scripture, as I explain in detail here.

So therefore, if the (Roman Catholic) Church says it is OK to venerate images of the saints, then the RCC is in the same position of the Pharisees who, also having the due authority to bind and loose, ran afoul of Yeshua for using that authority to nullify God's Word.

182 posted on 02/06/2006 8:52:35 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Buggman; TexConfederate1861

You're not paying attention. TexConfederate1861 is not Catholic. He is Orthodox Christian.


183 posted on 02/06/2006 8:54:04 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: TexConfederate1861
"I stand corrected...Pyro nudged me on that one. Ignatius is correct."

No worries mate. Let's take up the argument with St. Ignatius.


"Do you seriously think that St. John didn't teach Ignatius all he knew? And all he knew of the Savior, from PERSONAL experience?"

I think that Ignatius did hear alot from John and that he preserves helpful and highly valuable information. But he was not given the grace of inerrant inspiration Like John was. The early fathers have made blunerous and embarrassing errors at points.

St. John's writings are the very breath and voice of God. Ignatius' are not.
184 posted on 02/06/2006 8:55:59 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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Comment #185 Removed by Moderator

Comment #186 Removed by Moderator

Comment #187 Removed by Moderator

Comment #188 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo; Buggman; Clay+Iron_Times; Diego1618; phatus maximus

"...to come back and answer and rebut numerous posts, especially when we all just seem to go round and round,..."


I've often thought that having discussions on FR is very similar to leaning your head out the window and trying to have a conversation with someone on a passing train.


189 posted on 02/06/2006 9:50:45 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: sandyeggo
http://www.bible-researcher.com/vulgate1.html I know of at least a couple of sources which would disagree with that. Here is one, a non-Catholic source: Here is a snippet:

I believe Wikipedia would also be considered impartial. Here is another snippet from me I guess you did not read the first one as it said the majority of his work was completed in Bethlehem...just as this one says. See the last four paragraphs of the "LIFE" section.

190 posted on 02/06/2006 9:50:53 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: sandyeggo
I'm sorry - I'm a lousy apologist, because I don't have the time

That's O.K. Sandy....we still all love you just the same. Blessings to you and yours. Diego

191 posted on 02/06/2006 9:53:06 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: sandyeggo; Clay+Iron_Times; Diego1618; phatus maximus; PetroniusMaximus

"[Yeshua] said to them, 'All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition'" (Mark 7:9).


192 posted on 02/06/2006 9:59:22 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Pyro7480; TexConfederate1861
You're not paying attention. TexConfederate1861 is not Catholic. He is Orthodox Christian.

You are correct. My apologies. Take out "Rome" and insert "Constantinople" and replace "Roman Catholic" with "Eastern Orthodox" then; the point remains the same:

Nobody has the authority to overturn a command given directly from the mouth of God. "Binding and loosing" only gives one the authority to show how to apply the Torah (and by extension, the rest of the Scriptures), not to change or ignore the least letter.

193 posted on 02/06/2006 10:02:33 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: sandyeggo
BTW, I'm a HUGE fan of Calvin & Hobbes. :)

Bill Watterson does have a way of cutting to the chase while making you laugh, doesn't he? :)

I greatly appreciate your humility and softspokeness. Don't worry about not always having the time; I've had to drop out of many a debate on FR for lack of it.

God bless.

194 posted on 02/06/2006 10:06:20 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: P-Marlowe
It is God who gave us his word. At best men have been but mere caretakers of his revealed word. If mankind will not take care to preserve God's word, then God is perfectly capable of writing it on tablets of stone.

WOW! Amen!

On a separate subject, I thought it was interesting that the author didn't mention Jerome's counsel about the "deuterocanonical" books (which he did include in his Vulgate) being acceptable as models of conduct and faith, but shouldn't be used as a basis for doctrine.

[I haven't read all the replies yet; so if this was already brought up and/or discussed, my apologies!]

195 posted on 02/06/2006 10:09:50 PM PST by Mockingbird For Short (Why is there something rather than nothing?)
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To: sandyeggo
Does it never cease to irk you that the Catholic Church IS the Church of the apostles?

This is as amusing as someone saying, "If the King James Version was good enough for Paul, it should be good enough for us!"

196 posted on 02/06/2006 10:12:41 PM PST by Mockingbird For Short (Why is there something rather than nothing?)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

"And in the Acts of the Apostles, Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter!"

Please give the scriptural referance in the book of Acts where Christ gives the keys to the kingdom to Peter. In case you are having a hard time finding it, try looking in Matt 16. But don't stop there. Go on to Matt 18 and see where Jesus gives the same authority to the rest of the apostles.


197 posted on 02/06/2006 10:37:21 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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To: Pyro7480
It refutes your Iconoclast position. By denying the fact that the Incarnation and Redemptive acts of Christ changed the universe (what you're essentially doing), you're denying the necessity of the Incarnation.

Not at all, and that's a completely illogical stretch.

Conversely, by denying that the Torah remains God's eternal standard, you call Him a liar when He says, "I am YHVH, I do not change" (Mal. 3:6) and "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Num. 23:19).

You further call Him a liar when He says, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one yod (the smallest Hebrew letter) or one tittle (i.e,. the least penstroke will by no means pass from the Torah till all is fulfilled" (Mat. 5:18). Either that, or you think that Heaven and Earth passed away sometime when we weren't looking.

There were only three changes to the Torah:

1) Gentiles with circumcised hearts are given equal brotherhood with born Jews in God's promises (Eph. 2:13-22), even in the eating of the Passover (1 Cor. 5:7-8).

2) Yeshua HaMashiach, the King of the line of Y'hudah, has been given the High Priesthood over the sons of Levi (Heb. 8-10).

3) The curse of the Torah--that is, the curses it pronounces against those who break its commands (Deu. 27-28)--have all fallen on Yeshua at the Cross, so that we who are truly in Him need not fear the penalties for failing to keep it all perfectly (Gal. 3:13--so much for Purgatory!). Thus, the Torah has lost its punative power as the Law of God, but retains its authority as the Teachings (a better translation of Torah) of God.

There was indeed a change in the universe in the Incarnation and the Cross, but it is not the change you imagine . . . and God did not change the universe just to wink at bowing to statues--Israel's chiefmost sin, for which it was first split, and then sent into exile fore--after doing so.
198 posted on 02/06/2006 10:41:48 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: tenn2005

"Please give the scriptural referance in the book of Acts where Christ gives the keys to the kingdom to Peter."

Are you thinking my statement regarding the keys is supported or undermined by the passages you reference?



(BTW: nice personal note on your About page!)


199 posted on 02/06/2006 10:50:22 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

You need to check out the references. But you will not find a record of Christ giving Peter any keys in Acts.


200 posted on 02/06/2006 10:56:49 PM PST by tenn2005 (Birth is merly an event; it is the path walked that becomes one's life.)
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