And this is what we find:
Now there may be other explanations for the above, but I suggest the burden is on the skeptic to provide one.
Posted on 05/29/2006 6:28:25 AM PDT by truthfinder9
I often hear skeptics point to the belief in the global flood as a reason to not believe Christianity. I also see "Christian" creationist groups condem other Christians who believe the local flood is the literal interpretation. It's time we start telling "Christian" groups like ICR and AIG to stop turning people away from the Bible and tell them to stop their childish, immature attacks on other Christians (AIG recently refused to be subject to review, now there's the making of a cult!). And it's time for Christians to stop blindly believing everything they are told, just because it comes from other Christians.
Why the Local Flood is the Literal View
What a sheltered world you live in.
"...engaging [in] what I will call from here on "trailer park scholarship" .... Who are these people trying to kid? Their scholarship, as a whole, is reckless and pitiable; what they know, they have learned from reading a few popular books with no conception of the broader issues and fields at hand. .. "Why did God make the Bible so hard to understand, then?" It isn't -- none of this keeps a person from grasping the message of the Bible to the extent required to be saved; where the line is to be drawn is upon those who gratuitously assume that such base knowledge allows them to be competent critics [or commentators] of the text, and make that assumption in absolute ignorance of their own lack of knowledge -- what I have elsewhere spoken of in terms of being "Unskilled and Unaware of it: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments" ["It is one of the essential features of such incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent. To have such knowledge would already be to remedy a good portion of the offense. .....Incompetent individuals will suffer from deficient metacognitive skills, in that they will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it-be it their own or anyone else's. ...]
If they would at least admit that it might be a possibility that they are incompetent, then it is possible for them to educate themselves so as to be able to recognize incompetence in those they look to as "Bible teachers".
"Who needs faith in a Savior when there really is no such thing as sin?"
That's true, but what does THAT have to do with the subject under discussion? You're attempting to mix apples and oranges.
Note this:
Towers Online - The News Service of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
April 13, 2006 By Jeff Robinson
Excerpts:
"Trustees at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on April 11 unanimously approved the creation of two new theological study centersthe Center for Theology and the Arts, and the Center for Theology and Law, during the board's annual spring meeting.
Seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr. said the new study centers aim at equipping pastors and church leaders to think biblically about pivotal issues which dominate contemporary culture.
"One of the ways we want to lead Southern Baptists is through helping evangelicals and Southern Baptists in particular to engage some of the most critical issues of our day," Mohler said.-
"This is not a time for Christians to be out-thought by the world, but in general that is what happens. We find the church behind the times in thinking about some of the most crucial issues of our day."
Mohler also announced the appointment of two new faculty members to lead the centers. [snip] ...
...Mohler also named Kurt Wise as the new director for Southern's Center for Theology and Science, and professor of theology and science. Wise currently serves on the faculty of Bryan College in Dayton, Tenn., where he is also director of the Center for Origins Research.
Wise earned both a doctor of philosophy and master of arts in paleontology from Harvard University. He and his wife Marie have two daughters.
Wise replaces William Dembski, who is leaving Southern Seminary to join the faculty at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary so he can be closer to his family.
"With the addition of Kurt Wise, we are recognizing that creation is a ground zero theological crisis point right now in American culture and even in our churches," Moore said. [snip] ..
In other business, trustees: .... Heard a report from President Mohler that Southern's enrollment has topped 4,000 students for the first time in the seminary's history."
*
Here are a couple of interesting items I found on the web regarding Kurt Wise:
[1] 7/3/2003 "Ok, I just got a email from Dr. Wise. This is what he said:
"I am a young-age creationist because the Bible indicates the universe is young. Given what we currently think we understand about the world, the majority of the scientific evidence favors an old earth and universe, not a young one. I would therefore say that anyone who claims that the earth is young for scientific evidence alone is scientifically ignorant. Thus I would suggest that the challenge you are trying to meet is unmeetable." ~ Kurt Wise
[2] December 19th 2004 Theologyweb.com
Post # 7:
"...there is new breed of YEC out there, of which Kurt Wise is an example, who recognize that there are scientific problems with their Weltanschauung. I knew Kurt was exceptional, but there are more of his stripe. Affectionately, I'd like to refer to them as neo-YECs, as opposed to the Wieland-Ham-Morris-Safarti-Jorge YECs for which I would propose the oxymoronic moniker paleo-YECs."
*
"Conflicts between Science and the Bible arise from either a lack of scientific knowledge or a defective understanding of the Bible." ~ Moses Maimonides
I guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I was showing you an example of "selective translating" which were no doubt the result of preconceived notions. In fact, you came right back at me with even MORE examples of it. LOL
Remember an important detail, the Scriptures are only inerrant in the origional autographs. Inerrancy and Human Ignorance
"An who exactly would be outside of the Adamic covenant???"
See here:
The Origins Solution by Dick Fischer
Chapter 14
NOAH AND FAMILY: A VOYAGE TO REMEMBER
[snip]
Summary
Writing in 1683, over 150 years before the Sumerian and Accadian flood stories were unearthed, Matthew Poole had this to say in A Commentary on the Holy Bible: And whereas our modern heathens, that miscall themselves Christians, laugh at the history of this flood upon this and the like occasions, as if it were an idle romance; they may please to note, that their predecessors, the ancient and wiser heathens, have divers of them acknowledged the truth of it, though they also mixed it with their fables, which was neither strange nor unusual for them to do.
Extra-biblical accounts help substantiate the flood as a documented event, an incident of record. The legends of Gilgamesh, Atrahasis, and Ziusudra not only establish the flood, they dictate the location, the extent, and the approximate date.
Adamite populations were the target of the flood. They resided in the heart of Southern Mesopotamia at that time, the focus point of the flood. The scope of the flood was entirely confined to this locale. Most of the world's human populations were unaffected. The time of the flood was around 2900 BC when Ziusudra was king.
If any credible evidence from nature of a world-wide flood catastrophe could be documented, could pass the scrutiny of peer review, and become published in any respected scientific journal, that discoverer would be an instant Noble Prize candidate. What has been offered up as evidence of a global cataclysm has been paltry, dubious, and unconvincing.
It has been pointed out that God's general revelation should match up with His special revelation. There are times when ignoring the clear messages from the Bible has caused some to rely too heavily on naturalistic revelation to the detriment of their conclusions.
Likewise, God's messages from nature must be heeded to restrain us from making preposterous interpretations of Scripture. It serves no useful purpose to declare the Bible inerrant, and then interpret so erroneously that it causes disbelief.
NOTES [snip] If anyone wants to read the whole chapter, let me know and I'll freepmail it to you.
The story of the flood, like the creation story itself, makes sense only as a fable or legend, not as scientific history. I know many who believe these stories literally happened won't be convinced otherwise by me, but even if we ignore the impossibility of a sudden earthwide flood, the sheer logistics involved in collecting and keeping all the the animals on earth alive is beyond anyone. Who went down and collected the koala bears? What did they feed the lions? Were there polar bears? Grizzlies?
It isn't just young earth versus old earth, it's small-world versus big world. The fable works on a small earth... not a big one.
You said "You are barking up the wrong tree. Let the Bible stand as is it - let it be called unscientific, anti-homosexual, antifemanist, unenlightened, etc. and etc. It will remain long after these other philosophies have died. So will the one who stands in it's shadow."
From the Apostle Paul 50AD-170AD to,
Irenaeus 170AD-320AD to,
Martin 312AD-606AD to,
Columba of the Dark Ages 606AD-1520AD to, Luther "justification by faith not works" 1520AD-1750AD to,
Westley of the Methodist movement or sanctification (clean up your life after justification)1750AD-1906AD to, Marion Branham of the Pentecostal movement or Holy Ghost Born Again Christians.
Lets see, the bible has been set afire and new movements have had landslide effects 7 times since Christ died, and it will never stop moving forward because more and more is revealed to us, it is called Revelation, "upon this rock I will build my church" the rock of revelation. God hasn't died - He is very much alive and thriving and so it stands to reason that there will always be more revealed and more church movements.
For instance, a current event;
while they were "eating, drinking and marrying" (heterosexuals) in Noahs day (Book of Genesis), God flooded and drowned the entire human race – except Noah and his - because of their abominations. I'd say heterosexuals arouse Gods anger in "special" ways. Anger toward a specific culture is not justification for discrimination, inciting hatred and not especially sanctioning such via Gods Word. Sodom and Gomorrah was about pride, fulness of bread, abundance of idleness [prosperous ease], the lack of strengthening the hand of the poor and needy, haughtiness Ezekial 16:49 & 50. Many of the people in sodom and gomorrah were heterosexuals not homosexuals and yet the church has persecuted them forever and are still persecuting them Luke 17:26-30 They did eat, they drank, they married wives ((obviously heterosexuals), they were given in marriage, until they were destroyed. Mathew 24:37-42 they were eating, drinking and marrying when the floods came and killed them all. Isaiah 1:7-31 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah 17) Learn to do well; seek personal judgement, relieve the oppressed, plead for the widow. 19) If ye be "WILLING" (not forced) and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land 21) How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of ill judgement (judgement of others), (self) righteousness lodged in it. Murderers, rebellion, thieves, everyone loves gifts (bribes), and follows after rewards (rather than seeking God). All the people in Sodom were inhospitable and wanted to rape the 2 angels when Mathew 10:14&15 says to treat inhospitality by leaving that house and shaking the dust off your feet if they won't listen.
Mathew 7:1-5 Judge not that ye be not judged. 2) For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brothers eye, but considerest notthe beam that is in thine own eye? 4) Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the mote out of your eyes; and behold, a beam is in your own eye.
1 Corinthians 2:2 the Apostle Paul speaks of his ultimate wisdom (after killing people who did not subscribe to the Pharisee religious doctrines) and his conclusion to his ministry is 2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
I think we can safely assume that Paul made a lot of ill judgements of other people and their sins and he realized how wrong he was, he arrived at the understanding that his salvation depended upon faith and not the persecution of people he disagreed with. Phillipians 2:12 Wherefore my beloved, not as in my presence only (he knows what you've never shared with anyone), but now much more in my absence, work out "your own" salvation in fear and trembling.
I think it is understandable that we can never know who or why people are the way they are, so, we best heed Mathew 22:36-40 36) Master [Teacher] what is the greatest commandment of all? 37) JESUS said love the Lord thy God with all your heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38) This is the first and greatest commandment. 39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
That is a pretty strong message, Love God and your neighbor as thyself. He didn't say oppress and persecute homosexuals and treat them with less respect than yourself. Nope, didn't say that at all.
Blessed are the flexible for they shall not be bent out of shape!
Well, whatever...The flood was world wide. The Bible tells us, and one can always go sneek a peek at Grand Canyon and other huge canyons in other states. Those who choose not to believe it, too bad for them...
You liberals have no faith. The power of God is never considered, and is always discounted. Read the scripture - only two of each kind was brought (by God) to the boat.
Read the scripture - only two of each kind was brought (by God) to the boat.
And you think that makes it doable? Did they just walk on in a cute little parade like the cartoons we've seen?
While I'm not going to "condemn" anybody, I don't think the language in Genesis would allow for anything other than a global flood.
Perhaps you should add a few words to the Hebrew. Words like destroy all flesh "nearby". Or cover all the mountains "within walking distance". You know, just a few little changes here and there and your theory would make perfect sense.
As it stands right now, the Book of Genesis clearly speaks of a global flood affecting all the earth. Sorry.
And this is what we find:
Now there may be other explanations for the above, but I suggest the burden is on the skeptic to provide one.
The reason that people don't want to believe in Christianity is because they are sinners and they like being sinners. The miracle of the flood is just another excuse.
I also see "Christian" creationist groups condem other Christians who believe the local flood is the literal interpretation.
More often than not I see evolutionist "Christians" condemning those who are fundamentalist in their beliefs; Christians who actually believe that God made the heavens and the earth and all that in them is in 6 days. The condemnation comes in the form of ridicule from those who refuse to believe what the bible clearly teaches.
It's time we start telling "Christian" groups like ICR and AIG to stop turning people away from the Bible...
It is the doubters who turn people away from the bible. It is the doubters who deny the truth of the bible and insist that the stories in the Bible are merely allegories or myths handed down from other pagan societies.
and tell them to stop their childish, immature attacks on other Christians (AIG recently refused to be subject to review, now there's the making of a cult!).
That is laughable. Who's attacking other Christians right now? Seems to me that this thread is an attack on "other christians", namely bible believing Christians. Making of a Cult? AIG is not even a church! Maybe you should stop your immature attacks on other christians before you demand the same from everyone else.
And it's time for Christians to stop blindly believing everything they are told, just because it comes from other Christians.
What those you attack believe is the Bible. You are the one who is blindly denying the truth of the bible and blindly following what others have told you. If, by "others", you mean Moses and Jesus, then yes, I am more than happy to blindly follow what they said. It will all be explained later. In the meantime I am required to believe no one but God.
Anything else?
That's the rub. I don't think that those who believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was sacrificed on a cross until dead, was dead for three days and became alive again and went to live with His Father in heaven do disbelieve in a global flood. It's the ones that don't believe all that other stuff that disbelieve that God could literally flood the whole world.
IMO.
"And this is what we find:"
Fantastic chart. Where did you find it?
And you, Matchett-PI, have you recognized that you are just as incompetent as those you are pointing your fingers at?
I hate to break it to you, but I am not sheltered. And I do realize that I am not a Bible scholar, though I have surrounded myself with several who have studied it. I also have walked the road of liberal Christianity, and recognize that it is neither liberal nor Christianity.
My remark about not needing a Savior if there is no sin is directed towards the point that it is liberal "Christians" who raise all these issues. Instead of finding faith-promoting topics, all they are concerned with is faith-destructive issues. Articles like the one in the OP are just another attempt to nail the top on the coffin of Christianity.
So, all your points have evaporated in the dust. Have anything else to share?
I can see where some "young" Christians may be trying to equate the "proof" of science to the Bible. I, at one time, believed that God used Evolution to create the world. But the more you study the Bible and study the origins ideas of evolutionists, you have to make a choice. The two are not compatable.
What helped clear it up for me was the science definition of what a fact is. It is defined as something observable or repeatable in experiments. (That's not a word for word definition, but it's the gist.)
You can observe a fossil. Science has yet observed or repeated in an experiment a lizard turning into a bird, or non-living chemicals turning into life, etc. So when scientists say that "mountains of evidence" proves that so-and-so became such-and-such, it's not a fact.
What they really should say is that our interpretation of the evidence leads us to believe that the most likely natural cause of this is.... That's because science can't measure the supernatural, so it can neither confirm it or deny it.
Sincerely
Yes, ma'am/sir.
"He didn't say oppress and persecute homosexuals and treat them with less respect than yourself."
I'm not sure that I'm getting the meaning of your post. What exactly was your point?
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