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Mary’s Assumption is hope for today’s society, says Pope
Asia News ^ | August 16, 2006 | Benedict XVI

Posted on 08/16/2006 7:22:39 PM PDT by ELS

16 August, 2006
VATICAN
Mary’s Assumption is hope for today’s society, says Pope Today’s world denies God His place or despairs in death. Only God’s love can quench the thirst for happiness and give value to the mystery of human frailty and death. The Pontiff remembers Frère Roger of Taizé, killed a year ago.
Castel Gandolfo (AsiaNews) – Today’s general audience was a bit special. Contrary to the usual practice, it was held in the courtyard of the Pontiff’s summer residence rather than St Peter’s Square. And instead of continuing his meditations on the Apostles, the Pope spoke again of the Assumption of the Virgin, the Christian festivity that was celebrated yesterday in memory of the "glorification" of Mary, the mother of Jesus, including her corporeal glorification.

For the Holy father, more and more today’s society must be aware of this feast day, "so felt by the Christian people" as a "luminous sign of hope". "Today," he explained, "there are those who live as if they were never to die or as if all should end with death. Some act as if humankind was master of its own destiny, as if God did not exist, going so far as to deny Him any place in our world. The great advances in science and technology, which have much improved humanity’s conditions, leave unanswered the innermost questions of the human soul. Only by opening up to the mystery of God, which is Love, can our heart’s thirst for truth and happiness be quenched. Only a point of view based on eternity can give historical events, especially the mystery of human frailty, suffering and death, real value".

The sign of Mary’s Assumption plays fundamental role in Christians’ journey and mission. "By contemplating Mary in her celestial glory," the Pontiff said in conclusion, "we understand that the earth is not our final homeland, that if we live constantly focused on that which is eternal, we can share one day that same glory. For this reason, despite our many daily challenges, we must not lose our serenity and peace. The luminous sign of the Assumption of our Lady in the heavens glows brighter than the sad shadows cast by sorrow and violence. We are certain that from high above Mary follows our steps with sweet trepidation. She brightens our life in its dark and stormy hours and reassures us with her maternal hand. Conscious of this, we continue confident along our path shaped by our Christian commitment wherever Providence takes us".

At the end of the audience after the multilingual greetings, Benedict XVI evoked Frère Roger, founder of the Taizé community, who a year ago was mortally struck by the hand of a deranged soul during the evening prayers.

"His witness to the Christian faith and ecumenical dialogue," the Pope said, "was a precious lesson to entire generations of young people. Let us call on our Lord that the sacrifice of his life may contribute to consolidating the commitment to peace and solidarity of those who care for humanity’s future."

(Photo CPP) See also: 08/15/2006 VATICAN - Pope: to Mary, Queen of peace, I entrust anxieties of ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: assumption; benedictxvi; blessedvirginmary; castelgandolfo; catechesis; catholic; generalaudience; mary; pope; popebenedictxvi; vatican
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Pope Benedict XVI holds his weekly general audience from his summer residence in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome August 16, 2006. REUTERS/Dario Pignatelli (ITALY)

Pope Benedict XVI waves to the faithful during his weekly general audience at his summer residence in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome August 16, 2006. REUTERS/Dario Pignatelli (ITALY)
1 posted on 08/16/2006 7:22:42 PM PDT by ELS
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To: clockwise; bornacatholic; Miss Marple; bboop; PandaRosaMishima; Carolina; MillerCreek; ...
Weekly audience ping!

Here is an article from Asia News about today's audience. Still no full transcript in English has been posted of last week's audience - at ZENIT or the Vatican Web site. ZENIT was supposed to resume service today, but no new content has been posted, yet. I'll post the transcripts for last week's and today's audience as soon as they are available.

Please let me know if you want on or off of this list.

2 posted on 08/16/2006 7:28:59 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS
The sign of Mary’s Assumption plays fundamental role in Christians’ journey and mission.

I've been to Castel Gondolfo and it's a spectacular sight.

But I don't know anything about a sign of Mary's Assumption. First I've heard of that.

3 posted on 08/16/2006 7:29:05 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: ELS
She brightens our life in its dark and stormy hours and reassures us with her maternal hand. Conscious of this, we continue confident along our path shaped by our Christian commitment wherever Providence takes us".

Amen.

4 posted on 08/16/2006 7:40:24 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("These formidable people....will die for Liberty")
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


5 posted on 08/16/2006 7:45:53 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: Dog Gone

Mary is considered the precursor of us all, in some ways. In Catholic doctrine, she was conceived without sin, meaning that she was not marred by Original Sin. Her death, therefore, was different, because it was like the death of someone before the Fall.

For Catholics, this is a restatement of the reality of eternal life, the goal of earthly life, and the fact that Mary (who was not God or part of the Divine Nature) has gone before us and will be helping us from Heaven, as any good mother - or even older sister - would do. Catholics see the saints as their older brothers and sisters, who are not dead but have gone before and will intercede for them. The reason Catholics can address the saints and pray for and even address the dead, who may or may not be in Paradise, is that death is no more, and in eternity, we are all alive in Christ.


6 posted on 08/16/2006 8:11:32 PM PDT by livius
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To: ELS

Thanks, ELS!


7 posted on 08/16/2006 9:08:32 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: livius

"In Catholic doctrine, she was conceived without sin, meaning that she was not marred by Original Sin. Her death, therefore, was different, because it was like the death of someone before the Fall."

Are you saying she died without ever sinning?


8 posted on 08/16/2006 9:09:35 PM PDT by conservatative strategery
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To: ELS
"Today," he explained, "there are those who live as if they were never to die or as if all should end with death. Some act as if humankind was master of its own destiny, as if God did not exist, going so far as to deny Him any place in our world.

These powerful words are the essence of our faith and have so much bearing on how we live our lives, and how we approach the events that occur during our brief sojourn here. Epic Catholicism.

Only by opening up to the mystery of God, which is Love, can our heart’s thirst for truth and happiness be quenched. Only a point of view based on eternity can give historical events, especially the mystery of human frailty, suffering and death, real value".

Once again the pope tells us that God is Love. I'm thinking that the pope really thinks that the faithful should orient themselves to that fact. Thank you Papa. Spot on message.

9 posted on 08/16/2006 10:04:55 PM PDT by LordBridey
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To: livius

Thanks for that explanation. I guess I was reading it too literally because I thought it was a reference to a visible act or sign.


10 posted on 08/17/2006 4:44:42 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: conservatative strategery

I am confused by the word 'death' in this post. I thought she had an assumption. Is that not a physical taking up directly to heaven.

Also if she were without original sin; than she would neither want nor need Christ's redemption in any form.

Correct?


11 posted on 08/17/2006 5:18:41 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: livius; Dog Gone; ELS

Devotion to Panagia is one of the crown jewels of The Church here on Earth. For us Orthodox Christians, the idea of living and working without the close proximity of our icons of Panagia is very nearly unthinkable. She is in every way the shining example of a Christian life lead by a loving mother who is the fully human example of complete theosis. I have always thought it a great tragedy that so many Protestant Christians neither share nor understand our devotion to her.

When I was a child I went to Catholic elementary school. When the nuns taught us to pray the rosary, they also taught us the "Sorrowful Mysteries". My wife, who for the past 29 years has been very Orthodox, grew up a Congregationalist. After we were married she read the "Sorrowful Mysteries" and after the birth of our much loved second child with Down Syndrome and a serious heart defect, her devotion to Panagia blossomed as she recognized in her a mother who had endured great sorrows for the glory of God. When her very old father lay dying a few years back during Great Lent, my wife attended all the Akathist services at our parish. As she put it, she just sat there crying to her mother Panagia because she knew "she understands".

On a side note, in Orthodoxy we celebrate the Dormition (Falling Asleep) of the Most Holy Theotokos on August 15th. While virtually all Orthodox Christians believe in the Assumption, it is not taught as dogma but rather as a theologoumenon, or "optional" pious belief.


12 posted on 08/17/2006 5:51:20 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Rhadaghast
I thought she had an assumption. Is that not a physical taking up directly to heaven.

The Church has not declared whether Mary died a physical death or not. I think most sources or opinions is that she did die, but was subsequently assumed into heaven, body and soul. (since Christ died - more coming up on this)

The explanation for Mary's Assumption is based on the concept of Consortium. This is based on Scripture:

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together". Romans 8:17

Since Mary participated in the Redemptive work (not that she was necessary, but God willed her being there and taking part), including the Suffering at Calvary, (SHE was ALSO pierced with a "sword" at the foot of the cross, as predicted by Simeon) she would also be glorified. Being the first hearer and believer of the Word, naturally, she would be the prototype of what would become of believers who followed after her.

Also if she were without original sin; than she would neither want nor need Christ's redemption in any form.

Mary needed salvation from sin just like any other human. However, God acted on her in a singular way, freeing her from original sin at her conception. Mary herself proclaims that God is her savior in her Magnificat:

"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Luke 1:47

God saved her by preventing her from falling into sin.

Regards

13 posted on 08/17/2006 6:01:47 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus

Thank you for your explanation.
But wasn't Mary still alive when Stephen was martered?
Would that not make him the first Christian in heaven?


14 posted on 08/17/2006 6:16:08 AM PDT by Rhadaghast (Yeshua haMashiach hu Adonai Tsidkenu)
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To: ELS
Some act as if humankind was master of its own destiny, as if God did not exist, going so far as to deny Him any place in our world. The great advances in science and technology, which have much improved humanity’s conditions, leave unanswered the innermost questions of the human soul. Only by opening up to the mystery of God, which is Love, can our heart’s thirst for truth and happiness be quenched.

************

This Pope speaks with such eloquence and with such truth.

15 posted on 08/17/2006 6:38:02 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Rhadaghast
Also if she were without original sin; than she would neither want nor need Christ's redemption in any form.

Correct?

Nope. She was preserved from original sin by and through the foreseen merits of her Son.

Nobody is saved apart from the merits of Jesus Christ earned on the Cross. Absolutely nobody. Not Mary, not infants, not me, not you, not anybody.

I am confused by the word 'death' in this post. I thought she had an assumption. Is that not a physical taking up directly to heaven.

Yes, but there's some disagreement on whether blessed Mary died physically before being assumed body and soul. The better-attested tradition is that she did die, and was placed in a tomb, but the tomb was later found to be empty.

16 posted on 08/17/2006 7:24:40 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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Here is the transcript from Zenit:

Date: 2006-08-17

On the Assumption

Mary Follows Our Steps With Gentle Trepidation"

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, AUG. 16, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of Benedict XVI's address at today's general audience, held at the papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo. The Pope dedicated his address to Tuesday's solemnity of the Assumption.

* * *

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

Our usual weekly Wednesday meeting is taking place today in the climate of the solemnity of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. I would like to invite you therefore to turn your gaze once again to our heavenly mother, whom the liturgy presented to us as victorious with Christ in heaven.

This feast has always been greatly cherished by the Christian people since the first centuries of Christianity. As is already known, it celebrates the glorification, including corporal, of that creature whom God chose as his mother, and that Jesus on the cross gave as mother to the whole of humanity.

The Assumption evokes a mystery that affects each one of us because, as the Second Vatican Council affirmed, Mary "precedes with her light the people of God as a sign of hope and consolation" ("Lumen Gentium," No. 68). We are so immersed in everyday struggles that at times we forget this consoling spiritual reality, which is an important truth of faith.

How is it possible to make this luminous sign of hope be increasingly perceived by present-day society? Today there are those who live as if they should never die, or as if all ends with death. Some behave as if man is the sole author of his destiny, as if God did not exist, at times even denying that there is a place for him in our world.

The great successes of technology and science, which have notably improved humanity's conditions of life, do not give solutions to the most profound questions of the human spirit. Only by openness to the mystery of God, who is love, can our hearts' thirst for truth and happiness be satisfied; only the perspective of eternity can give authentic value to historical events and above all to the mystery of human frailty, suffering and death.

On contemplating Mary in heavenly glory, we also understand that the earth is not our definitive homeland and that, if we live constantly oriented to eternal goods, one day we will share in her same glory. For this reason, despite the many daily difficulties, we must not lose serenity or peace.

The luminous sign of the Assumption to heaven shines even more when it seems that sad shadows of grief and violence loom over the horizon. We are sure that, from on high, Mary follows our steps with gentle trepidation, gives us serenity in the hour of darkness and storm, and gives us security with her maternal hand.

Supported by this conviction, we continue with confidence on our way of Christian commitment where providence leads us.

[Translation by ZENIT]

[At the end of the audience, the Holy Father greeted pilgrims in several languages. In English, he said:]

I am happy to greet all the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors present at this audience, including the altar servers from Malta, and the groups from England, Ireland, Canada, Nigeria and the United States of America.

Yesterday we contemplated the Virgin Mary's assumption into heaven. This mystery reminds us that our definitive homeland is not here on earth, and that our longing for fulfillment finds complete satisfaction only in eternal happiness. May our mother in heaven, who guides us on our way, inspire us with courage and hope through the struggles of our daily life! I wish you a pleasant stay, and may God bless you all!

[In Italian, he said:]

I would like to end our meeting with a special remembrance of Brother Roger Schutz, founder of Taizé, murdered on Aug. 16 of last year during evening prayer. His testimony of Christian faith and ecumenical dialogue was a precious teaching for entire generations of young people. We pray to the Lord that the sacrifice of his life will contribute to consolidate the commitment to peace and solidarity of all those who have the future of humanity at heart.

© Copyright 2006 -- Libreria Editrice Vaticana [adapted]

17 posted on 08/17/2006 12:41:31 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: clockwise; bornacatholic; Miss Marple; bboop; PandaRosaMishima; Carolina; MillerCreek; ...

The transcript for yesterday's audience catechesis is at reply #17.


18 posted on 08/17/2006 7:23:25 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS
The Assumption evokes a mystery that affects each one of us because, as the Second Vatican Council affirmed, Mary "precedes with her light the people of God as a sign of hope and consolation" ("Lumen Gentium," No. 68). We are so immersed in everyday struggles that at times we forget this consoling spiritual reality, which is an important truth of faith.

Thanks for posting this.

19 posted on 08/17/2006 7:25:50 PM PDT by Carolina
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To: Rhadaghast
But wasn't Mary still alive when Stephen was martered? Would that not make him the first Christian in heaven?

I think tradition states that she lived with John for quite some time, so I would agree that Mary was still alive.

As to Stephen being the first Christian, perhaps. First, some people may have died naturally, after converting to Christ, before St. Stephen was stoned. I am not sure where the "Good thief" stands on this, either. I would say St. Stephen was the first who willingly gave his life for the Christian Gospel.

Regards

20 posted on 08/17/2006 7:35:35 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: ELS; All
From article: Pontiff remembers Frère Roger of Taizé, killed a year ago.

How did he die? I love Taize music!

Regards

21 posted on 08/17/2006 7:40:04 PM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus

He was stabbed by a deranged woman during evening prayer service.


22 posted on 08/17/2006 7:48:49 PM PDT by Carolina
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To: Rhadaghast

I think the thief on the cross next to Jesus (the one who asked 'Remember me when you come into your kingdom'), to whom Jesus promised 'Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise', would qualify as the first Christian into Paradise with Christ. But to Heaven, well, there were forty days Jesus stayed around the Earth after His resurrection and prior to His ascension. One would be hard pressed to offer proof of whom may or may not have died 'in Christ' during that period prior to and at His ascension.


23 posted on 08/17/2006 7:52:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: jo kus
From the transcript in reply #17: "Brother Roger Schutz, founder of Taizé, murdered on Aug. 16 of last year during evening prayer."
24 posted on 08/17/2006 8:22:53 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: conservatative strategery; livius
Are you saying she died without ever sinning?

Yes.

25 posted on 08/17/2006 9:30:51 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Rhadaghast; Campion
"The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." (Munificentissimus Deus).

The infallible definition does not specify that Our Lady died.

26 posted on 08/17/2006 9:38:46 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: livius

For me the Assumption points up the Resurrection and most poignantly the evil of death, when body and soul are torn apart, and the longing of the saints in heaven for reunion with the flesh, when they shall be made whole. There seems to be at work today a facile platonism, which treats the body as a shell, something to be got ride of. It could be that the pain of leaving it is greater than any bodily torments we suffer.


27 posted on 08/17/2006 9:39:54 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: jo kus

Maybe Marty was "in heaven" from the moment of her conception, or on an earth that she perceived very differently than most of us do.


28 posted on 08/17/2006 9:43:42 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Rhadaghast
But wasn't Mary still alive when Stephen was martered? Would that not make him the first Christian in heaven?

Our Lady is the first to be in heaven in both body and soul. Because Our Lady was prevented from ever receiving the stain of original sin by a unique grace and committed no personal sin her body would not suffer corruption. The rest of the souls in heaven will not be united to their bodies (which will be glorified) until final judgment on the last day.

29 posted on 08/17/2006 9:46:36 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: jo kus; RobbyS

ping to 29


30 posted on 08/17/2006 9:47:48 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: RobbyS

A wonderful observation. Yet another aspect of the Assumption I had never thought of before. Thanks.


31 posted on 08/18/2006 5:33:18 AM PDT by livius
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To: Kolokotronis

That's a beautiful story. Many former Protestants have trouble understanding Our Lady when they become Catholic or Orthodox, but I have often seen them have some experience that suddenly makes them understand - and then they become the most devoted of all!


32 posted on 08/18/2006 5:36:17 AM PDT by livius
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To: murphE; Rhadaghast; Campion; livius; RobbyS

"The infallible definition does not specify that Our Lady died."

Indeed it does not, but Holy Tradition says she did die as is demonstrated by this Icon, called "The Falling Asleep". The small figure held by Christ represents the soul of the Most Holy Theotokos. The Church has expressed the Faith of the Fathers well in the reading and prayers for the August 15th Feast:

Apolytikion in the First Tone

In birth, you preserved your virginity; in death, you did not abandon the world, O Theotokos. As mother of life, you departed to the source of life, delivering our souls from death by your intercessions.

Kontakion in the Second Tone

Neither the grave nor death could contain the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection. As Mother of life, He who dwelt in the ever-virginal womb transposed her to life.

Synaxarion:

Concerning the Dormition of the Theotokos, this is what the Church has received from ancient times from the tradition of the Fathers. When the time drew nigh that our Savior was well-pleased to take His Mother to Himself, He declared unto her through an Angel that three days hence, He would translate her from this temporal life to eternity and bliss. On hearing this, she went up with haste to the Mount of Olives, where she prayed continuously. Giving thanks to God, she returned to her house and prepared whatever was necessary for her burial. While these things were taking place, clouds caught up the Apostles from the ends of the earth, where each one happened to be preaching, and brought them at once to the house of the Mother of God, who informed them of the cause of their sudden gathering. As a mother, she consoled them in their affliction as was meet, and then raised her hands to Heaven and prayed for the peace of the world. She blessed the Apostles, and, reclining upon her bed with seemliness, gave up her all-holy spirit into the hands of her Son and God. With reverence and many lights, and chanting burial hymns, the Apostles took up that God-receiving body and brought it to the sepulchre, while the Angels from Heaven chanted with them, and sent forth her who is higher than the Cherubim. But one Jew, moved by malice, audaciously stretched forth his hand upon the bed and immediately received from divine judgment the wages of his audacity. Those daring hands were severed by an invisible blow. But when he repented and asked forgiveness, his hands were restored. When they had reached the place called Gethsemane, they buried there with honor the all-immaculate body of the Theotokos, which was the source of Life. But on the third day after the burial, when they were eating together, and raised up the artos (bread) in Jesus' Name, as was their custom, the Theotokos appeared in the air, saying "Rejoice" to them. From this they learned concerning the bodily translation of the Theotokos into the Heavens. These things has the Church received from the traditions of the Fathers, who have composed many hymns out of reverence, to the glory of the Mother of our God.


33 posted on 08/18/2006 6:34:42 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

The story at the end of this account is very ancient and is still preserved in, of all places, Spain, where it is performed in the town of Elche (near Valencia) on the Feast of the Assumption every year. It is the only surviving medieval Mystery play and is performed in the Cathedral. Much much of it and its music was rewritten in the 18th century, but the story is the same. The entire performance is done by the townspeople, and it is a matter of great pride for the men to be part of this performance, from generation to generation.

The part of the Virgin is sung by a boy, of course, and there is a particularly beautiful song as the Virgin is preparing to die. Then all of the Apostles start coming into the church - there is the miracle with the conversion of the Jewish spectator - and Our Lady even delays her Assumption so that St. Thomas, the Apostle who had gone furthest afield (to India), can return in time to see her! Finally, Our Lady is lifted up to Heaven (the dome of the Cathedral) in a piece of stage machinery built in the 18th century while the Apostles sing a very beautiful song. After this, the fireworks begin and go on for hours outside the Cathedral.

It is called the Misterio de Elche. Worth seeing if you are ever in Spain at that time of year, although you have to make arrangements well in advance to get in. If you are visiting at another time of year, the town of Elche (also spelled Elx, in Catalan) has a museum dedicated to the play. Spain was very influenced by Byzantine Christianity, btw, because it was evangelized very early.


34 posted on 08/18/2006 6:52:44 AM PDT by livius
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To: Kolokotronis
K,

One of my favorite artists is Duccio di Buoninsegna who depicted this story in a series of panels making up The Maestà. Here they are:


Parting from the Apostles


Death of the Virgin (notice the Christ holding Mary's soul)


Funeral


Burial

Duccio painted these in the years 1308-1311.

35 posted on 08/18/2006 7:08:58 AM PDT by Carolina
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To: livius

"If you are visiting at another time of year, the town of Elche (also spelled Elx, in Catalan) has a museum dedicated to the play."

I haven't been to Spain in 25 years...but I love Spain and as a young attorney spent a great deal of time there on business. Every year we say we'll go back, but it always seems we end up somewhere else...usually Greece!:) I would indeed like to see this Mystery Play which sounds like it follows Holy Tradition precisely.


36 posted on 08/18/2006 8:04:52 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Carolina

Thanks so much for posting these. Duccio's opus shows the vitality of the Byzantine style in Italy as late as the 14th century. I've never seen these before and they are quite wonderful.


37 posted on 08/18/2006 8:08:24 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Duccio's opus shows the vitality of the Byzantine style...

That's why he's one of my favorites...his use of iconic language. :)

38 posted on 08/18/2006 8:29:57 AM PDT by Carolina
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To: livius
Spain was very influenced by Byzantine Christianity, btw, because it was evangelized very early.

By St. Paul himself? But if so, as in the case of Rome. He probably visited an existing church.

39 posted on 08/18/2006 8:33:21 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

Probably. Spain was Rome's most important colony, and even aside from influence of the large Roman military presence (where many of the original Spanish Christians came from), it was in contact with the important currents of thought and behavior found in Rome at the time. And then there is the tradition that Santiago (St. James) evangelized Spain, although virtually all scholars discount this. Still, you never know...


40 posted on 08/18/2006 8:43:41 AM PDT by livius
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To: Carolina

Thank you for posting those images. They are beautiful.


41 posted on 08/18/2006 9:07:39 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Carolina; livius
the vitality of the Byzantine style in Italy

If you haven't visited Ravenna, yet, you might want to add it to your itinerary. Ravenna was the Italian seat of Byzantium and has quite a collection of Byzantine art. Most notable are the basilicas of San Vitale and Sant'Apollinare in Classe.

A virtual tour of Basilica di Sant'Apollinare in Classe

Images of the interior of Basilica di San Vitale

The Churches of Ravenna: An Early Christian Picture Show

42 posted on 08/18/2006 9:37:32 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS

Another place I want to see. My wife says I'm fixated on Greece! :) But you know, the call of the blood is strong!

The links to the church interiors are appreciated. Byzantine church architecture and decoration contribute mightily, especially when coupled with the Divine Liturgy of +John Chrysostomos, to an other worldly sense in worshippers. As +Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople reported when they returned to Kiev, "We knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth!" My belief is that this experience is what lies at the base of the Orthodox conviction of the timelessness of the Faith as Holy Tradition has given it to us, both in theology and praxis.


43 posted on 08/18/2006 9:54:13 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
But you know, the call of the blood is strong!

I can definitely relate to that given that I am 3/4 Italian and have lived in Italy. There is a very strong pull.

44 posted on 08/18/2006 10:30:13 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS; Kolokotronis

The mosaics at Ravenna are some of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. Ravenna, in fact, is a remarkable place, with its connection with Dante, the beautiful church that is now mostly underwater, etc...and the great food, for those more earthly minded among us.


45 posted on 08/18/2006 11:16:57 AM PDT by livius
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To: Kolokotronis
Byzantine church architecture and decoration contribute mightily, especially when coupled with the Divine Liturgy

multimedia interaction/participation ... what is old is new, again.

46 posted on 08/18/2006 11:49:21 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: murphE
The infallible definition does not specify that Our Lady died.

Absolutely correct. Pope Pius did not wish to dogmatize either position, but kept the definition neutral out of deference to both traditions.

47 posted on 08/18/2006 1:04:24 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Rhadaghast

"Also if she were without original sin; than she would neither want nor need Christ's redemption in any form."

Correct. If she lived a sinless life, she would not need Christ, yet she called Him Savior. The whole idea doesn't square with Scripture.


48 posted on 08/18/2006 5:44:11 PM PDT by conservatative strategery
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To: conservatative strategery
Correct. If she lived a sinless life, she would not need Christ, yet she called Him Savior.

The person who pulls you out of the way of a speeding car before you are hit would be no less your savior than the doctor who performs the life saving surgery on you had that person not been there.

49 posted on 08/18/2006 7:43:29 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: ELS

Yes, Ravenna is definitely on our "to visit" list next time we're in Italy.


50 posted on 08/18/2006 7:48:57 PM PDT by Carolina
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