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Childish behavior



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HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]
The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

Posted on 12/31/2007 8:21:48 PM PST by Salvation

HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES

By MARK P. SHEA

 
Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.

As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.

Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.

Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.

They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.

Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.

For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.

These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.
 
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; mariology; mysticism; saints; scripture
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To: Mad Dawg; HarleyD; Kolokotronis

Oh. I meant to say I pinged Kolo because he disagrees with the entire framework of the Immaculate Conception dogma, but thinks very highly of the Panagia (All Holy).


1,161 posted on 01/11/2008 7:14:45 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; HarleyD

“...but thinks very highly of the Panagia (All Holy).”

“thinks highly”...you could say that. Interesting way to put it MD. BTW, my great grandmother couldn’t spell canon; I doubt she could have told you who the Patriarch of Constantinople was, let alone the Pope, but Panagia, her “Panagitsa” (Little Panagia) as she called her, was her best friend who visited her everyday. They talked. My great grandmother was not even remotely senile. She was, and very likely is, a saint. Hers was the Faith that moved mountains.


1,162 posted on 01/11/2008 7:22:24 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: HarleyD

When we pass through the process of judgement, we go beyond time into eternity.

We may, through the purgatorial cleansing become “like Him”, but we will never be equivalent to Him. We are not LDS. We do not believe in godhood for us mortal men.


1,163 posted on 01/11/2008 7:33:15 PM PST by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Discussion is not an option with the most vocal Protestants, as far as I can tell.

At least not discussion "in kind."

It would seem that once the acrimony is bilateral, "abiding by the letter" comes up for review, and we go to "zero tolerance."

What a farce...

1,164 posted on 01/11/2008 7:35:12 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: HarleyD

***MB: God IS partial. He gives His gifts as He sees fit.

HD: Sorry, that doesn’t make Him partial.***

Yes it does. Partiality is the opposite of egalitarianism. It means that each individual is different and therefore worthy of different consideration.

God treats each of us differently.


1,165 posted on 01/11/2008 7:36:58 PM PST by MarkBsnr (m)
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To: HarleyD

***MB: One of the basic beliefs required of all Christians is that Jesus is fully human and fully God. At once and forever.
HD: That doesn’t explain time nor have you explained it. You haven’t explain how Christ could be “in time” and “out of time”. What you have implied is that there are two Christs. I’m sure if I research this a bit I would find some heretical group that believe this. ***

You see, this is one of the disadvantages of being a member of a short sighted and insular theological group.

Christ is fully human and fully divine according to Christian theology. At once and always.

If you do not believe this, you are in heresy and should move to the sidelines. Look it up, son. You need to understand Christianity with all it means and not just from the frivolous Protestant peanut gallery.


1,166 posted on 01/11/2008 7:47:19 PM PST by MarkBsnr (m)
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To: Kolokotronis
“thinks highly”...you could say that. Interesting way to put it MD.

It's my hah class Episcopal background - you know the church that is entirely in favor of the worship of God, as long as it's in it's proper place, and doesn't frighten the horse or upset the hounds.

Yes, I have blessed foxhounds.

Our antagonists, in their admirable jealousy for God who owns all our hearts and our praise and worship, think that love is arithmetical.

But just as the heart expands to include more babies, so also one finds that one can Love God with awe and joy beyond imagining, and still get a little leaky around the eyes when the love of the All Holy comes up.

Those of us, especially, whose earthly mothers had problems, can take solace in thinking that there is another Mother who loves us.

She who bore for us the deliverance from all sorrow, who, by grace, gave herself unreservedly to God and housed and sheltered His Most Holy Son, and brought the Love and Salvation of God into the world, For her be endless praise and thanks to the God of our salvation, who through Holy Mary gave His love to us. She who housed the Creator of the worlds within her womb, who welcomed Him and sheltered and nourished Him, who touched Him more intimately than any other, she in whom the love of every mother for her child was made Holy, who presented the fulfillment of God's promise to the gentiles, and who, wondering, heard the message of the angel, she is our friend for ever, and by the grace of God, in her company we cherish before all things the Love of God made human and given to our world and our hearts. Gladly we join with her in adoring her holy Son.

Through Him may we glorify God forever.

1,167 posted on 01/11/2008 7:51:25 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: papertyger; kosta50; Mad Dawg; All

And so we see that the foundation of sand of Reformed theology is exposed once more.

They do not believe in the Lord’s Prayer. They do not believe that the Two Commandments of Christ have any meaning, and they certainly do not believe that the Sermon on the Mount is even worthwhile to report on.

If you all would, please say a decade of the Rosary for these folks who are prideful, stiff necked and lost. There is salvation for them, if they would only stretch out their hands and take it from the Holy Spirit. Right now, they do not know; let us make them aware in the name of the Most High. Please folks, come back to God. He has promised salvation for all if only we will accept it.

Glory be to the Father
And to the Son
And to the Holy Spirit
As it was in the beginning
Now and ever shall be
World without end, Amen.


1,168 posted on 01/11/2008 8:07:21 PM PST by MarkBsnr (m)
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To: Mad Dawg

Just pray the Lord’s Prayer and read Christ’s two commandments, and follow it up with the Sermon on the Mount.

You have just gotten the distilled Gospels. Maybe the Protestants, just maybe, might get it too.


1,169 posted on 01/11/2008 8:24:30 PM PST by MarkBsnr (“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Glory be to the Father

And to the Son

And to the Holy Spirit

I do not know about you, but I think that "mommy" is getting rather tired of being ignored.

1,170 posted on 01/11/2008 8:28:19 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble

***I do not know about you, but I think that “mommy” is getting rather tired of being ignored.***

Anton, is that you? Well, as far as I’m concerned, you can go to the devil. If Scripture is accurate, witches will reap their own reward aplenty.


1,171 posted on 01/11/2008 8:49:26 PM PST by MarkBsnr (“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
You have a father and a son.

Where is the mother?

1,172 posted on 01/11/2008 8:56:12 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble

Evil is as evil does.

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

Please do not post to me ever again.


1,173 posted on 01/11/2008 9:07:52 PM PST by MarkBsnr (“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
For some strange reason, you find the concept of a mother very scary.

I am rather curious as to why this would frighten you.

1,174 posted on 01/11/2008 9:08:52 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

Attributing motives and reading minds are both "making it personal."

1,175 posted on 01/11/2008 9:10:51 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Point understood!

I did not realize that I was saying anything personal, but once spoke, I had to review the words that I had used.

Never do I attack a single person, and if it sounds like I did, then it was never intended.

What I say, is only for the purpose of debate.

1,176 posted on 01/11/2008 9:16:24 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Religion Moderator
However, as I review the sequence of what I wrote above, I have no idea what implied anything against any single individual.

Can you help me out?

1,177 posted on 01/11/2008 9:23:52 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Hunble
The following is an example of reading another poster's mind, i.e. "making it personal."

you find the concept of a mother very scary.


1,178 posted on 01/11/2008 9:27:34 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Ok, I made the error of using the word “you.”
<p:
Lesson learned.


1,179 posted on 01/11/2008 9:29:07 PM PST by Hunble
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
1,180 posted on 01/11/2008 9:36:06 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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