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HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]
The Rock ^
| May 1994
| Mark Shea
Posted on 12/31/2007 8:21:48 PM PST by Salvation
HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES
By MARK P. SHEA
Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.
As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.
Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.
Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.
Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.
They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.
Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.
For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.
These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; mariology; mysticism; saints; scripture
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To: MarkBsnr; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Stuff like this is new age occultism. These beings are channeled by Shirley McClain and people like her. If anything, these occultists open themselves to demonic spirits who make the claim that they are gods. This stuff has nothing to do with Christian churches.
1,461
posted on
01/14/2008 10:42:37 AM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: Quix
Oh, thats right . . . you were NOT referring to 1436 Fascinating . . .Uhm, it's pretty clear the referring post was 1425...don't you know how posting works, or does that one just stand out?
1,462
posted on
01/14/2008 10:43:07 AM PST
by
papertyger
(changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
To: papertyger
I’m sending you mail.
We can take this discussion off line.
1,463
posted on
01/14/2008 10:47:09 AM PST
by
MarkBsnr
(“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
To: Quix
the RC magicsterical politicians have been making stuff up for MANY centuries.It's not "making stuff up" when you are authorized by Jesus Christ, Himself.
1,464
posted on
01/14/2008 10:49:27 AM PST
by
papertyger
(changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
To: 1000 silverlings
Orthodoxy, yes.
If you do not have the keepers of Orthodoxy keeping vigilance, then stuff like this is only a matter of degree since it departs from orthodoxy in the first place.
Do you see substantive difference between this stuff, and, for instance, the beliefs of the Albigenses? I see differences in the specifics, but not in the methodology of generating the doctrines.
1,465
posted on
01/14/2008 10:49:58 AM PST
by
MarkBsnr
(“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
To: Quix
Sorry, no, I wasn’t referring to post 1436 (but if you’d like me to, I will)
I was referring to your post to me.
To: MarkBsnr
No one needs to investigate rabbit holes. The bible has all the truth needed to keep the train on track
1,467
posted on
01/14/2008 10:56:00 AM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: 1000 silverlings
No one needs to investigate rabbit holes. The bible has all the truth needed to keep the train on trackThen why all the divergent lines? If the Bible says to go to the Church to settle certain disputes, but you pick the church according to your preferences, how does that work?
1,468
posted on
01/14/2008 11:04:57 AM PST
by
papertyger
(changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
To: 1000 silverlings
” This stuff has nothing to do with Christian churches.”
“The religious framework of the UFO phenomenon has never been far away. Reverend Barry H. Downing, a pastor of the Northminster Presbyterian Church in Endwell, New York, wrote “The Bible and Flying Saucers” in 1968, arguing that the burning bush of Exodus was a UFO.”
http://www.conspiracy-times.com/content/view/98/37/
IOW, the Presbyterians aren’t Christian? I have to check Burning Bush/Flying Saucer/ET in Genesis.
“This theme has been expanded by Nelson S. Pacheco and Tommy R. Blann in “Unmasking the Enemy. Visions around the world and global deception in the end times.”
They aren’t Clinical Psychiatrists.
To: OpusatFR
1,470
posted on
01/14/2008 12:28:26 PM PST
by
MarkBsnr
(“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
To: MarkBsnr
” Through exhaustive biblical research, this work presents a new paradigm about exactly what the Bible teaches, and reveals incredible truths buried under centuries of alteration of the very foundations of the true church Jesus inspired.”
Sounds like any Protestant group doesn’t it? ( ;
To: OpusatFR
Ridiculous. I never took any UFO courses at seminary and as far as I know, except maybe at flakey liberal schools, there still aren’t.
1,472
posted on
01/14/2008 2:01:02 PM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: papertyger
Well the Christians are probably already in a church before they settle disputes biblically. Are there really a lot of “divergent lines?”
1,473
posted on
01/14/2008 2:03:20 PM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: OpusatFR
here you go, blessed virgin mary sightings are UFOs.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/october13maryfatima.html
1,474
posted on
01/14/2008 2:09:06 PM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: 1000 silverlings
“Ridiculous. I never took any UFO courses at seminary and as far as I know, except maybe at flakey liberal schools, there still arent.”
So you aren’t Presbyterian? I thought from all that has been said, all Presbyterians are the same but the divergent groups are simply separate in goverance.
Reverend Barry H. Downing, a pastor of the Northminster Presbyterian Church in Endwell, New York, wrote The Bible and Flying Saucers in 1968, arguing that the burning bush of Exodus was a UFO.
He’s an ordained Presbyterian minister, reverend or whatever.
So I can surmise that Presbyterians do have different sects that differ in their interpretation of “Sola Scriptura” other than the aforementioned governance issues?
To: 1000 silverlings
And what do you do about disputes between Christians of different churches?
1,476
posted on
01/14/2008 2:32:00 PM PST
by
papertyger
(changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
To: OpusatFR
So? He can write anything he wants to, that is his misguided idea. He would have to build a case using other scripture to validate it. Writing something doesn’t make it dogma or received text. I never even heard of his theory and doubt many others have either unless they too are UFO believers and not well grounded in the scriptures. Some people want to believe all sorts of things. The vatican wrote something on incubi and succubi, so you go around teaching it? Is it official dogma?
1,477
posted on
01/14/2008 2:35:06 PM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: papertyger
The few times I have learned of them, the two parties pick a mediator, usually one of their pastors, and meet about it. I’ve never had a dispute, so don’t know from my own experience.
1,478
posted on
01/14/2008 2:38:03 PM PST
by
1000 silverlings
(Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
To: 1000 silverlings
The few times I have learned of them, the two parties pick a mediator, usually one of their pastors, and meet about it.I guess that's as good a plan as any if you can't follow what the Bible actually says to do...
1,479
posted on
01/14/2008 2:40:19 PM PST
by
papertyger
(changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
To: OpusatFR
Hes an ordained Presbyterian minister, reverend or whatever. Can they use reverend (let alone "very reverend") since it would take away from God?
1,480
posted on
01/14/2008 2:43:48 PM PST
by
Titanites
(...and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing)
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